I don't believe that the Big 10 has ever one the ACC/ Big Ten Challenge... However, I am not totally sure on this.

Hawkscoach, you seem to be able to your hands on all of the stats... can you confirm this? What is the History?

tomegun
1. You speak of failing to win the entire championship with talent as though that should determine a 1 seed. Fab Five went to two consecutive NCAA finals with arguably the most talent ever on one team. They lost to . . . Duke and UNC. Hmmmm - is that a pattern?

2. How many times do I have to agree that Duke could be lower than a 1 seed because of both the 6-4 finish and the conference final loss? I could go with OSU or UCONN as a sub for Duke. With that in mind, Duke still is #1 in the RPI, which is a very strong determining factor, and should mean a 2 seed at a minimum (remember 1 up, 1 down as a rule of thumb). and Duke played a stretch run schedule that was far stronger than any othe contender for the #1 seed, something the committee must have considered.

3. Past performance. You say Duke is overrated traditionally. I say there are 4 #1 seeds every year, and Final Four appearance is the sole factor to consider when validating a 1 seed. All 1 seeds should arguably make the Final Four every year. GUESS WHAT - Duke has more consistently made the Final Four under K than any other team in the entire history of NCAA basketball with one exception - John Wooden's UCLA teams. Not just current teams, we are talking about all teams for all time. I wasn't a UCLA fan when they were at the end of their run, but I wouldn't think of arguing that they were overrated. Similarly, I am not a Duke fan, but they clearly are not overrated - they are consistently better than any other team currently playing, and better than any other team in history other than UCLA. How a team with that track record can be overrated is beyond me.

As for UNC this year, they are Top 20 RPI (which justifies a 5 seed), they are a 6 seed, which again can be defended from the 1 up, 1 down theory - but should be defended in terms of why they are lower than their RPI justifies, not why they are too high.

BLah, blah, blah Rut, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Face it, the Little Ten sucked this year, getting only three teams in. A couple of years ago, the ACC only got 3 teams in. It happens, things run in cycles. But nobody in the media, or on sports talk radio is crying about the great injustice done to the Little Ten or complaining about how many teams the ACC got in. Yes, MD and Wisconsin could easily be swapped in the seedings and would be better. I agree with that point. But it's a down year for the Little Ten, no question.

As for the first weekend, we'll see hwo's still standing.

But, they lost 40%. MS did their stretch run of good teems early in the season... and lost, They didn't get a #1.

1. Although they were very talented, if you think the Fab 5 had the most talent ever you need help my friend. Let me throw some teams out there: UNLV 90', UNC 82', G'town (all Ewing years), Illinois 89', UM 89', Kentucky 84' and on and on. In my lifetime I think the most college talent was either G'town 84' or UNLV 90'.

2. Michigan State played a tough schedule. Where are they?

3. Duke has had the most talent in the history of college basketball other than maybe UCLA and North Carolina. They are supposed to win with talent for crying out loud! For me, getting to the Final Four is not enough. I guess Coach Knight sort of spoiled Indiana fans by winning it when he went. UCLA had talent and won a lot of championships. Duke and North Carolina has had talent and IMHO their championships are not in line with their talent pool. Jordan, Worthy, Black, Dougherty, Doherty, Stackhouse, Montross, Wallace, Vince Carter, Jamison, K. Smith, Rick Fox, Hubert Davis, Williams, Sam Perkins, Haywood, Popson, Wolfe................Laetner, Hurley, B. Davis, G. Hill, T. Hill, the guy on ESPN, Dawkins, Ammaker, Brand, Battier, Burgess, Ferry, Wojohoweveryouspellit, Jay Williams and many others. Name me one other program that has had the level of talent that North Carolina and Duke has had in the last 20 years? Talent + so-called coaching greatness + not enough trophies = overated!

:p

He's not supposed to - not so sure how well AD's (paid to trump up their schools) can keep their mouths effectively shut on discussions of teams within their conferences.

I'd ask our AD, but unfortunately he's no longer on the NCAA tourney committee. :(

I was looking at this similarly to Hawks Coach - not that you win because you're lucky, but you have to have some luck to win.

Granted, the game is almost all coaching, skill, knowledge, and fatigue - BUT - do you get a shot that rebounds out right to your best shooter? Does the close block/charge with 1.5 seconds left go your way? Does your opponent's leading scorer twist his ankle when he slips coming up court? That's the luck - maybe I should call it intangibles - that you need to win 6 in a row.

3. Duke has had the most talent in the history of college basketball other than maybe UCLA and North Carolina. They are supposed to win with talent for crying out loud! For me, getting to the Final Four is not enough. I guess Coach Knight sort of spoiled Indiana fans by winning it when he went. UCLA had talent and won a lot of championships. Duke and North Carolina has had talent and IMHO their championships are not in line with their talent pool. Jordan, Worthy, Black, Dougherty, Doherty, Stackhouse, Montross, Wallace, Vince Carter, Jamison, K. Smith, Rick Fox, Hubert Davis, Williams, Sam Perkins, Haywood, Popson, Wolfe................Laetner, Hurley, B. Davis, G. Hill, T. Hill, the guy on ESPN, Dawkins, Ammaker, Brand, Battier, Burgess, Ferry, Wojohoweveryouspellit, Jay Williams and many others. Name me one other program that has had the level of talent that North Carolina and Duke has had in the last 20 years? Talent + so-called coaching greatness + not enough trophies = overated!

If you measure success purely based on NC's you are a tuna sandwich short of a picnic. Consistently in the Tourney, consistently advance to the latter rounds of said Tourney,5 ACC tournament championships in a row, many other ACC Tourney championships not part of the latest string, Numerous regular season championships or finishing near the top all of this plus Great Coaching and Talent= Rated right where they should be. When a program is successful it breeds two camps those that love them and those that are jealous of the success and therefore despise them. Coah K's program has had such success that the talent comes to him. This is a tribute to his success (He built it up from the ground as he was unsuccessful in his early years and the alum wanted to run him off, but the AD had enough forsight and testicular fortitude to hold off- brilliant decision). The best players want to play for a great coach and a winning program. If you are a blue chipper do you want to play at Penn State or Duke if given the option. The answer is obvious unless you have some overwhelming reason to stay close to home.

Count me in as being one tuna sandwich short. :D

I want it all!

You might be one sandwich short. Would you rather:

A. Lose the ACC tourney and win the NC
B. Win the ACC tourney, make it to the Final Four and not win the NC

I would take A all day long! If that makes me one sandwich short then I'm hungry!

tomegun
We would all love to win the NC. Nobody has argued that point. By the way, who has won more than Duke in the last 15 years? I have yet to see that list from you.

It takes skill AND luck to win it all. Duke has the most consistent record with respect to success in the tourney, measured by NCs, as well as FFs, regional finals, etc. The skill and coaching always go their way, luck does not.

And if you have the most talent and consistently win more than everybody else, which Duke has, you are not overrated. you can argue underachieving, but underachieving and overrated are two different things.

If an NBA team plays a college schedule and wins all its games (as would be expected), but wins by less than the expected margin of victory, it was still the best team out there. It may have underachieved, but it was not overrated.

And if you think that a final four does not justify a 1 seed, then you simply are mathematically challenged and cannot understand the seeding system. A 1 seed means best in region, not National Champion. Win the region, you were the best in the region. How much simpler can I make it?

I said PURELY based on NC's. Of course the goal is to win a NC every year and of course the Duke would trade a acc tourney win for a NC, but so many variables come into play that winning a NC for any program even with talent isn't always possible, injuries, running into a hot team, having a bad game,etc. Was Villanova better than Georetown when Nova won it all.... no. Was Duke better than UNLV when Duke beat them in the final four... no. Things happen. But if you consistently put yourself in a position to win it all, which Duke does, then you are not over-rated. I don't know the exact numbers but Duke averages about 25 wins +/- each year. How many other teams can boast that type of success? Those that can are not overrated either. Your over-rated argument, still does not hold water.

OK, coach K is supposed to be the second coming but he has the exact amount of NCs as coach Knight. He has had way more talent. His talent level can only be compared to UCLA and North Carolina. I know they are different times with a different amount of players but there are more players and they are more physically gifted. Duke's success, as far as NCs go, does not compare to UCLA's. Now, don't get me wrong, I think Dean Smith was highly overrated as a coach also. That just made me realize, I'm not really saying Duke is overrated. I think they do get special treatment. I do think coach K is overrated as a coach. I think he is probably the best recruiter in history but when the tough gets going it can be a pain in the back :D I've known of others that have felt the same way in other levels of other sports. Some people still don't think Phil Jackson is a great coach. You might have a high school coach in your area and the knock on his team is the fact that he can't win the big one. I'm a 49er fan and I don't think George Seifert is all that good of a coach. He won two rings but so what, he had the best talent at the time. Plus he inherited the talent. Mike Tyson was a champion with some of the greatest skills of all time, is he considered the greatest of all time? If someone has never, ever said something negative about a coach with a lot of talent then they will have something to argue about but if you have coach K is probably similar to that coach. Do people consider Steve Fisher a great coach? He won when he had talent, he didn't when he didn't have talent. Coach K wins when he has talent and when he doesn't his back hurts.

Bobby Cox had the most talent for years and has one ring? Is he a great manager? Tony LaRussa? Mike Ditka? Lenny Wilkins has a lot of wins. Eddie Robinson has a lot of wins.

[Edited by tomegun on Mar 17th, 2004 at 12:15 PM]

Yes, all great coaches/managers (except maybe Ditka... don't know about his greatness as a coach).

By the way, Coach K had a great seaons going in '95 (I think) had only lost 1 or 2 games and his back went out and missed the rest of the season. The team, who by the way was still very taleneted only won a couple more games the balance of the year. Next year Coach is back, and Voila... Back on top of the Men's basketball world. Don't tell me he isn't a great coach. Yes he has talent, but to be a great NCAA coach you have to be able to recruit. You seem to forget, he struggled when he got to Duke and essentially put Duke on the map with a winning tradition. Coach Wooden the Godfather of NCAA mens hoops?.... Absolutely. However different time. Smaller field, the talent pool was not as great at the time (he got all the good ones). Today many schools get blue chip talent due to the popularity of bball, year round playing, availablity of camps, etc. This equals greater parity across the entire NCAA and less opportunity to win an NC year in and year out. By the way Duke did not have the best recruiting class this year (although they got a good one in Livingston), Texas did. By your definition, I should go ahead and pen Texas in as the NC for 2005. I would be curious to see how Wooden would do in this era, he might still be just as successful but I don't think so... just my opinion and others may disagree which I would understand.

As someone else already stated you have to factor the intangibles in with winning an NC and you have yet to recognize this. Give me one other team as consistently good over the last 15- 20 years as Duke....That is a function of coaching whether you choose to recognize it or not. The measure of a great coach is not only winning some NC's but also, putting yourself in a position to win one on a consistant basis. Coach K qualifies.

And I would venture a guess, that if whatever school you pull for was looking for a Coach and Coach K was a candidate, you would want him.

I don't think Indiana fans would want coach K. Not a chance, and if you were from Indiana you would agree. I can agree to disagree with you about coach K. You said all the coaches I mentioned were great coaches? George Seifert? Oh my. Now we know you aren't from Indiana and you aren't a 49er fan.
All this banter back and forth is all in fun to me. I just have my opinion. Debates like this are the most fun I have since my team is terrible. Oh, a lot of people consider Indiana's recruiting class the best except for the fact that the kid from Atlanta is probably going pro. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Bracey Wright goes pro. It looks better in the future but not great. Before the salary cap being a 49er fan was a lot like being a Duke fan. We knew we would be in the hunt for a championship because we knew we would have the talent.
I lost the over-30 championship last week and I was bummed. The team that beat us was better, bigger, quicker and had more talent. We got a second place trophy for the season and a second place trophy for the tournament. Was I happy? Not a chance. I didn't tell my wife about it until later and the trophies are on my desk at work. If you don't play to win it all then you might as well get a Playsatation :D

[Edited by tomegun on Mar 17th, 2004 at 01:06 PM]

Whoa!!!
 

You're kidding, right? Yep, yanking everyone's chains a bit.

Are you saying Coach K bamboozles the recruits, obtaining the very best players using smoke and mirrors? Every year? Over a period of 15 years? Sheesh!

No, I don't think Seifert is a great coach, what so ever. I was responding to your list of people at the end of your post. Seifert was mentioned but was not in your final list! Seifert proved he was not a good coach and that he thrived on talent given to him when he went to carolina. by the way I am from CA and went to school in the Bay Area (a WCC school as a matter of fact... go Zags- Normally, I don't cheer for them but if they pull it out then there is no reason why my alma mater can't do it in the future) so therefore I do pull for the 9'ers. Although, I would not call myself a die hard fan, come to think of it, I enjoy watching the NFL but don't have a team that I call my favorite. I mostly enjoy college bball and football as opposed to pro sports.

By the way, I am still waiting to hear, what coach/program has been as consistently good as Duke in the last 15-20 years?!

According to most of the major recruiting sources as quoted in USA today, Texas has the number one class based on the ranking of their recruits... amazingly enough mostly out of the Houston, TX area...
The top 3 are:
Dan Gibson- Houston(top 25 recruit and lead his team to a state title)
Deion Dowell- Texas City Top 25 recruit
Conner Atchley- Houston Top 100 recruit

I did see that Indiana, did have a good year and a nationally ranked recruiting class, but can't recall where they fell. Who do they have coming in?

Is Coach Knight a great coach? As much as I hate to admit it... yes. He was temendously successful at IU and he has taken a T Tech team that perennially(sp) sucked and put them in the top 25, and back in the dance 2 out of his first 3 years. As a person, I would say he leaves a lot to be desired. Self-Control is never a part of his demeanor. Where do you think Coach K (the Duke coach) learned from (in terms of coaching)? He will be the first to tell you that Mr. Knight shaped him as a coach. He just happens to be a better person (in my opinion) than Coach Knight. You never see Coach K fly off the handle and lose total control. Yes he gets angry with officials at times (expresses his opinion or dsipleasure- all coached do)and is not always an angel during competition. But he always is proffesional especially off the court. He is a class act and always conducts himself well. He is active in the community, the V foundation the student body, etc. The same can't be said about Coach Knight. And what is with the NASCAR like billboard that he calls a sweater? :)

Again, I guess we agree to disagree, I just can't see why anyone, looking at it objectively could say that Coach K is not one of the best ever to don a coach's whistle (Notice I did not just say whistle, because refs are the only true qualified operators of such a tool :)). Oh well, I too enjoyed the debate!

[Edited by BBall_Junkie on Mar 17th, 2004 at 01:58 PM]

Whaaaaaaaat???

K's a whiny little hemorrhoid! Whine, whine, whine! Got about as much sportsmanship when it comes to officials as the average fan. Clown is always in the running for the annual Jim Boeheim Whiny Coach award.

Him and Knight certainly are two of a kind, but Knight actually doesn't whine as much as K anymore.

Thank you for your opinion. Tell me a coach who doesn't. Anyway you want to look at it he is a success, and what he does works.... get over it.

I don't care much for Coach Knight, However, I've never considered him to be whinner. He will throw a tamtrum. Now, my definition of a Whinner is Coach K, whinning throughout the whole game. Coach Knight Picks his spots and has a tamtrum.

Funny that you mention this because i do R&D for a company that created these graphics that you're talking about. All that needs to happen is that the info you want is in a database (or even a text file) and the application, RTX [utl]http://www.inscriber.com/products/Broadcast%20Graphics%20Toolkit/RTX/index.html[/url] will read that info and create the graphics for you. In essence, the design of the layout could have been done ahead of time and then once that info is available, presto, it's done. I'm sure that I could type in a text file within 25 minutes. :)

Should I cc: this to CBS? :) Maybe make a sale on RTX.

Scrap everything...
 

...and create the TCS.

The Tournament Championship Series, modelled after the BCS.

Thank you for your opinion. Tell me a coach who doesn't. Anyway you want to look at it he is a success, and what he does works.... get over it.

[/B][/QUOTE]There ain't nothing for me to get over. I'm not a fanboy like you. I'm an official, and I try to look at things from an official's perspective. From an official's perspective, Coach K is a whiny little hemorrhoid. I didn't say that he wasn't a good coach, or that he wasn't successful. I also didn't say that he was alone as a whiner. Unfortunately, that seems to be part of the job description of a D1 coach anymore. I did say that that, when it comes to a lack of sportsmanship and constant whining at officials, Coach K is one of the all-time greats. If a hemorrhoid could talk, it would sound just like him.

If it makes you feel any better, Dean Smith and John Wooden were whiny little hemorrhoids too when they coached, and they were both Hall of Fame coaches.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 17th, 2004 at 03:16 PM]

I am an official just the same as you and call both High School and college ball (juco and the smaller stuff, not D1 though I aspire to get there someday)... so before you jump to conclusions with a "fanboy like you" comment get the facts first. I don't believe the personal attack was warranted. You definately have an opinion about Coach K that is fine...and your follow-up comments about all coached being whinners clarifies things abit for me. I don't agree with him being the worst of the worst is true, that is my opinion. His team gets more exposure than most so this may contribute to the perception, I don't know. However, whatever he is doing is working. Does the coaching profession need to change and show more respect to officials... absolutely. Is Coach K an angel on the sidelines ... not in a long shot (although I do respect what he does off the court). I too have the ability to look at things objectively, from a refs point of view if you will. Coach K made some comments in the media this week (talked about on the Jim Rome Show today)that the fans and media are out to get Duke because of who they are... comments that I feel are out of line and could best be described as whiney. But he is no different from 95% of the other coaches out there.

I recognize that fans come on here and gripe about officials and protect their coaches/ teams often and when recognized the fan boy comments are warranted and they need to take that garbage somewhere else. However, before you make a leap an assume ask first. I have been watching this board for years. My post numbers aren't high but I read alot of what goes on on this board. The "get over it" comment was obviously taken as an attack by you and is the danger with the written word. This is not how I intended it to be taken. I meant it as kinda "what's the big deal" and my body language if speaking to you personally would have probably had a shrug of the shoulders.I have enjoyed your posts in the past and will continue to do so.

Chill, Junkie. Nothing personal was intended. You haven't been speaking as an official in this thread, have you? Be honest. You have been speaking as a Duke fanboy. Same as Tony (bktballref) was posting as a Tar Heel fanboy. Etc,etc,etc. Nothing the matter with that. Personally, I'm not a big fan of any specific NCAA team. However, if I see a game where one coach is working the officials all the time, and the other official is just doing it occasionally, then I have a hard time rooting for the yapper's team. Imo, Coach K is one of the all-time yappers. That don't mean that he doesn't run a good program, or that he's not a great coach. It just simply means that I think that he yaps at officials WAY too much. That's jmo.

Btw, I'm a NY Yankee fanboy. Does that tell you something?
:D

jrut and LDUB
2 out of 3 Big Ten wannabes eliminated from NIT in 1st round (Go Blue!!!). ACC has won its first two games. And that with its top 6 in the winners bracket tournament, also known as Big Dance or NCAA. I am sure Iowa and Purdue belonged in the NCAA though.

:)

someone else's thoughts are similar
 

From the article by Andy Katz on ESPN March 17:

Maryland: The Terps are on a great run right now. Maryland beat NC State on the road, took out Virginia and then won the ACC tournament, capped by a title win over Duke on Sunday. The Terps were rewarded with a No. 4 seed. But will the Terps live up to that kind of seed? Maryland may need to step it up to honor the selection committee by winning a few games. It may not be fair to put the onus on the Terps after going from the bubble to a No. 4 seed. But they did receive the seed and now the pressure is on them to live up to it.

Team with Most to Prove
 

My nominees would be:
UMD - big jump needs big first weekend to back the seed - two wins and the committee is proven right

St Joes - been called out all season by the big conference fan club, Billy Packer, President

Duke - lose conference tourney and keep a top seed - everybody but Duke fans wants them knocked down a notch

WI - complained about 6 seed (rightfully), but playing at home - need to defend honor of Big Ten

Pitt, OSU, UCONN - any of whom can make the case for a higher seed - need to win now to back that case

Mid-major at-large teams - unpreceented numbers of mid-majors, they have been begging for more for years, now they need to show they belong by taking on the big dogs

Final Four- Gonzaga, Duke, Okla. State & North Carolina State.

Gonzaga beats Duke. Coach K whines at officials. :D
N.C. State beats Okla. St.

Gonzaga wins national championship.

What is the relevance of the projected game result
 

Anybody beats Duke. Coach K whines at officials (and media, and . . .)

Duke beats anybody, by any margin. Coach K whines at officials.

Duke stops at restaurant on bus ride home. Coach K whines at counter people.

I have 2 ACC teams in the Final Four, but mine are Wake Forest and Duke.

I see Kentucky/Duke, with Coach K whining his way to another NC, 78-71.

--Rich

Re: What is the relevance of the projected game result
 

Excellent points, Coach! LOL!

If that happens, then I'll be the one whining!

LDUB and jrut
You will (no doubt) be happy to note that I have UMD out in the first round to UTEP and no ACC teams in Final Four. Hope that helps you sleep better tonight!

I think Coach K whined when I knocked Duke out in the regional final, but maybe it was my cat at the door asking to go out.

First game of the tournament and Manhattan is putting it to Florida. 12 over 5!!!!!!! Shall we make it 16 of the last 17 years?

Hawks Coach, You've got a great chance. It's 70-68 MD leading with 5:30 to play.

86-83 MD wins.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Mar 18th, 2004 at 01:55 PM]

I said for this tournament, same as before ACC. MD can go deep, or die early. I went with them, then switched at last minute (what do they say about going with your gut?). Guess I picked wrong.

Oh well, I also made last minute switch from Manhattan to Florida (at exactly 11:45 EST today, same time I flipped to picking against UMD) - I never liked Billy Donovan anyway :)

TALK ABOUT RIDING THE FENCE. :D

I am sitting smack dab center of the fence on half the games in the tournament anymore. It used to be that a top seed could count on two pretty easy games - doesn't seem like that anymore. Top 40 teams, anybody can win at any time. Some are better bets than others, but anything can hppen when they toss it up.

6 for 6 so far. Doesn't that mean I'm tied for #1 in the country? Probably just jinxed myself for the rest of the night.

Picked the Manhattan upset correctly.

Along those lines, mick couldn't access the bracket, so he sent me his picks to insert last night. This morning, he emails me with one change. Manhattan over Florida.

Pretty good change! ;)

Oh! And the ACC is 2-0, although they both had to fight for their lives. Hopefully, we'll be 4-0 come tomorrow morning. :)

[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 18th, 2004 at 05:21 PM]

I just realized I went all higher seeds in the first eight games. And to think I was cool with going 7-1. I have Dayton and Arizona tonight in "upsets."

--Rich

I could care less if I miss all the rest of the picks, NEVADA WON!!!!!!!!!!

Oh YEAHHHHHHH!!!!!

Take that Big 10.

Somehow, I expected this post. :)

More to the point. . .
 

MSU came up short again against an NCAA tournament team - that closes them out at 2-9 for the year against Big Dance partners, with losses at home, road, and neutral court.

Big Ten Postseason 1-3 (with 2 first round NIT losses)
ACC 4-0

Boy, it's obvious the Big Ten got hosed this year.

http://213.239.157.21/smilies/tombstone.gif
<b>Michigan State</b>

We only get one shot every 20 years. I've got to be happy when we take advantage of it. :)

Two observations about Carolina-Air Force

#1 - Games at 8 sites and we get stuck with Packer.

#2 - If the Heels could hit layups, they'd be up 10. If Sean May could hit layups, he'd be unstoppable.

Hope they come out with a little more fire.

Re: More to the point. . .
 

Who cares about the NotInTourney? Let's not even count that.

Wake sneaks by a 13 seed by 1 point. Maryland squeaks by 13-seed UTEP by 3. Duke played some high school team from Alabama. UNC is having all it can handle from Air Force. You can't possibly think the ACC has been all that impressive today.

"Survive and advance." Jimmy Valvano

Sure, sure. The only team that will do that is probably Duke, but I hope Wake slides through since I picked them in that region.

Nevada played big in the second half. Loved Manhattan earlier today. Expecting more from Valpo. Great to see Izzo whine and lose.

I geeked out and bought the NCAA package on the dish, so I've been able to pick my game and switch around. Work from home, so I've been able to catch more than usual, although I got busy and missed most of the second block of games. Boys HS State tourney is on TV, too, but I'm only watching bits of that.

--Rich

Re: Re: More to the point. . .
 

4-0 baby, 4-0! Don't matter how ugly or how pretty, 4-0. :D

I'll remove a http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk.../notworthy.gif every time an ACC team loses, but they're all staying for now! :)

Like I said, I want some of the ACC teams to stick around. I have Wake Forest going to the Final Four, Georgia Tech winning 3 games, NC State winning three games, Maryland winning another one before falling to Stanford, and Duke winning it all.

The only one I have going out the first weekend is North Carolina, against Texas.

I'm pretty unemotional about filling out a bracket. I've followed Wisconsin quite a bit this season and I have them going out in the third round (although I do have them beating Pitt).

Crap. Double OT in the Dayton/DePaul game. What the heck were the announcers gabbing about -- no way that was a foul at the end of OT. However, it would've been really painful had DePaul lost because of a ball hitting the underside of the scoreboard.

--Rich

Edited to add: Oh well, I ended up with 4 losses, which is one of the worst first days I can remember in a while. However, it is the first time in a long while (if ever) that I didn't lose any teams I picked in the second round.

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Mar 18th, 2004 at 11:23 PM]

The officials are doing an amazing job in the DePaul/Dayton game.

I have DePaul picked, so they better keep the lead.

2/3 of my picks were right. That's the highpoint of my break. :D

Re: Re: Re: More to the point. . .
 

1. A win is a win - and 6-0 postseason is 6-0 postseason.

2. Tony, go ahead and remove one, but only if a team outside the ACC beats an ACC team ;) What I mainly seen this year is that the only teams that beat ACC teams are other ACC teams.

This thread's a keeper
 

You know, I'm really gonna enjoy re-reading this whole thread when the tournament is done. It's a keeper!

JRut seems rather quiet for the moment... My only missed pick was MSU. Should have know better - dang it.

I think both Texas and NC found out that if you let Princeton and AFA control the tempo they can get ya...the way to beat em is get the game moving...and rebound...oh yeah and hit layups that are offered..... The MWC didn't win yesterday, but they played pretty well, BYU scared the hell out of Syracuse...I expected UNC's athleticism to take over eventually against Air Force...It did but not how I expected it to. I thought that the Heels would be able to recover from defensive mistakes and get back to shut down the back door cuts that came from the mistakes...but it appears it was rebounding and finally controlling tempo that got it for em...

Re: This thread's a keeper
 

Midway through Friday now. Looking back, had you picked the higher seeds for all the first round games, your record would be 22-2 (Michigan State and Florida losing). I'm 20-4 since I picked Dayton and Arizona yesterday. Once again, I was impressed that I went 8-0 in the early games today, but I did that by picking all the higher seeds.

Still have all my second round (and beyond winners) which never happens. Of course, now I've "jinxed" myself for tonight. Of course, I've only picked one lower seed tonight, too (I picked Louisville over Xavier).

What, no games for TWO HOURS?!? Oh yeah, the HS State is on TV, too :)

--Rich

Say what you want, ALL SIX ACC TEAMS won their first round game. They may all lose before Monday, but thery're all still there right now! :)

IS there no end to your madness?

Not really.

In fact, I'll point out that teams from NC are 4-1 in the tourney.

After Kansas beats UIC, Illnois will be 1-2 in the tourney. :D

Hey, it's March! ;)

2-2. You forgot DePaul.

--Rich

Yes, I did. I stand corrected.

Proud to report that teams from Connecticut are batting 1.000. :D

Re: Re: This thread's a keeper
 

Yup. Should've kept my trap shut. Only 5-3 the second half of the day. Lost on Louisville, Washington, and Pacific.

Anyhow, being the geek I am, I did a state-by-state breakdown.

33 states had teams in the tourney.

Here are the first round records:

CA, NY, PA: 2-0
KS, MA, GA, NV, WI, OK, MS, MD, CT: 1-0
NC: 4-1
AL, TN, OH: 2-1
TX, IL: 2-2
KY, WA, NJ: 1-2
VT, LA, CO, AZ, SC, IN, IA, RI: 0-1
MI, UT: 0-2
FL, VA: 0-3

--Rich

Where's JRut?
 

Is he hiding or just giving everyone the silent treatment?

Good thing Wisconsin played in Milwaukee. Not sure if they could have pulled that one out of the fire without a little help from the crowd.

Re: Where's JRut?
 

Yeah, I know. I mean, crowds really contribute most of 34-9 runs.

Gone-zaga
 

Anyone have them going far? I had them winning today but losing to Georgia Tech in the next round, so no big loss for me.

--Rich

Re: Gone-zaga
 

I had them winning it all, so i'm basically out. :(

There's always next year. (when i'll legally be able to participate without lieing about my age)

[Edited by ref18 on Mar 20th, 2004 at 07:36 PM]

Maryland, the first ACC team to go down. Looks like my Heels are having problems with the Texas big guys. ACC may be 8-2 after tonight.

BYW, the PAC-10, one of the conferences that deserved more bids is done.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 20th, 2004 at 09:28 PM]

<b>R.I.P</b>
http://213.239.157.21/smilies/tombstone.gif
<b>North Carolina</b>

Told ya that any hour ago you old fart. :D

Re: Re: Where's JRut?
 

Man, I hate it when you are right!!! (Turning around and leaving my behind wide open for the kick)... Ouch!!! You're hurting me!

http://213.239.157.21/smilies/tombstone.gif
<b>WISCONSIN</b>

http://213.239.157.21/smilies/tombstone.gif
<b>GONZAGA</b>

D'OH ! ! ! !

(with credit to JR for the neat tombstone thingy)

How about this one, just because we now don't have to listen to BktBallRef as much: :D

http://213.239.157.21/smilies/opera.gif
<b>North Carolina</b>
<b>The Fat Lady has sung!</b>

Iow, North Carolina is roadkill!
http://213.239.157.21/smilies/roadkill.gif

Anyone seen North Carolina lately?
http://213.239.157.21/smilies/missing.gif

Old fart, eh? Heeheeheeheehee..........

Is DUKE still overrated
 

Two number one seeds are left. duke is ACC, and St joe's is inspired by ACC's Packer.

Overrrated - try Stanford. These are the rounds in which Stanford ahs exited the tournament since 1999:
2,2,4 (hey, a regional final),2,2,2

If you want to bet on what Number ! seed will be the first to lose to a 16, you might not have to look past Stanford. Keep giving them the top seed, it's inevitable.

BBR - I guess our individual ACC entries are kaput, but my Wolverines play again tonight in the loser's bracket. Go Blue!!!

Re: Is DUKE still overrated
 

St. Joe's being from what conference?

Anyone?

Anyone?

If St. Joes makes it, they will have earned their way to the final four. They are the only team with an intact regional bracket. Not to say the 8s and 9s can't play - they clearly can. But St. Joes will play a 4 seed and either a 2 or 3 seed, all of whom are playing quite well right now. So any trip they get, they will have earned.

I heard that Packer is doing Wake -St. Joes - that should make for an interesting post-game interview situation.

Re: Is DUKE still overrated
 

ACC, 9-3! How is that kaput? 3 of 16 is an even better percentage than 6 of 65. Nope, ACC is rolling strong, even if Maryland and Carolina have bit the dust.

Actually, filled out two brackets. This one, I picked Carolina as a fan, the other, I chose reality, picking Texas to beat them. Thye've been too inconsistent all year. I knew they wouldn't suddenly find what they couldn't find all season long. But they could still beat any team in the Little Ten.

But hey! Let's talk about the West Coast for a minute. The good folks on the wrong...excuse me, left coast are always complaining that there's an East Coast bias. Well, this tournament proves that there should should. Stanford, gone. Gonzaga, gone. Arizona, gone. Washington, gone. The PAC-10, gone! In fact, the only team, THE ONLY TEAM west of Oklahoma still in the Tournament is Nevada. ONE team out of TEN. Sucks to be on the left coast.

BTW, Jurassic, http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/finger.gif http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk...e/thebirds.gif http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk.../thefinger.gif http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/vtffani.gif http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/flip.gif http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk...e/brdflick.gif ;)

Well it stands the reason the acc would still have teams in since they got over rated, higher seed, and had easy teams to play. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk.../thefinger.gif

Re: Re: Is DUKE still overrated
 

BTW, Jurassic, http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/finger.gif http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk...e/thebirds.gif http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk.../thefinger.gif http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/vtffani.gif http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/flip.gif http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk...e/brdflick.gif ;)

[/B][/QUOTE]Was it something I said? :confused:

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/heart.gif http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk...e/pftroest.gif http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/kiss.gif


HEY BART! http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/wave2.gif

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/stfu3.jpg

Re: Re: Re: Is DUKE still overrated
 

Was it something I said? :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]

Ya missed a few...

http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/ink/659/dead22.gif
http://www.goolsbee.org/images/ne1000-99/possum.JPEG
http://www.ethanwiner.com/Smiley%20Land/Dead14.gif

Re: Re: Re: Re: Is DUKE still overrated
 

Ya missed a few...

[/B][/QUOTE]Never let it be said......

http://213.239.157.21/smilies/death.gif http://213.239.157.21/smilies/electricchair.gif http://213.239.157.21/smilies/animated/surrendering.gif



[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 22nd, 2004 at 02:36 PM]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is DUKE still overrated
 

Never let it be said......
[/B][/QUOTE]

Not to mention...

http://1000smilies.com/drowned.gif
http://1000smilies.com/shredder.gif
http://1000smilies.com/skull.gif
http://1000smilies.com/animated/leaking.gif

Or.....

North Carolina fanboy
http://213.239.157.21/smilies/paperbagged.gif

Response to North Carolina fanboy......
http://213.239.157.21/smilies/animated/caesar.gif

Hey Tony, the big 12 is holding its own. :) That beside the fact Colo. got snubbed.
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/stfu3.jpg

Seems the bombed...get it? They bombed?? Good one, eh??

http://1000smilies.com/animated/bomb.gif

Re: Re: Is DUKE still overrated
 

Let's not talk about us...I had Arizona losing in the first round, but Stanford and Gonzaga in the Final Four...knew the history of Stanford, but thought they could break out of that slump this year, and never thought I would see a Gonzaga team not show up like they did Saturday...but the UW/UAB game has absolutely been the most fun game to watch so far in this tournament...

No problem with the Big 12. A deserving conference indeed. In fact, I have a Big 12 team picked to win it all!

Re: Re: Is DUKE still overrated
 

O.K., since nobody else would bite. St. Joe's is from the Atlantic 10 -- the same as your school, Georgetown.

when did Georgetown move to the A-10??? Aren't they still in the "big" east...

Re: Re: Re: Is DUKE still overrated
 

Part I - correct :D
Part II - :mad:

They might as well move down to the A-10, they've been playing worse than St. Bonnaventure as of late.

George Washington plays Georgetown annually in women's basketball, and we (the students, at least) want to see an annual game against Georgetown's men's team. One theory floated as to why GU refuses is that, if they were to lose to GW, that would be the end of their storied basketball program.

Bottom line - in D.C. proper, GW men are on their way up, and GU men are on their way down.

I missed you guys all weekend, but I had to go to Vegas. Man was it hot down there. I paid for my whole weekend by putting $50 on Nevada to beat Gonzaga. Didn't get to see the game yet, but have it on tape. In fact, I have 3 days of tapes to go through now that I am home.

Best in the WEST, baby! Gaining some national respect. ACC team up next. Tough task. I'm hoping that the magic continues. Maybe the St. Louis crowd will get behind the underdog. The crowd has a big impact on this Nevada team. They could match up with Kansas for the right to go to the Final Four. Nevada crushed Kansas earlier this year!

That ain't saying much! :D

Ok, first some info.
1. I attended G'town, Mark goes to George Washington.
2. The Hoyas have been a Big East member since the league was founded. GW plays in the Atlantic 10.
3. The scheduling problem is something that annoys even the Georgetown folks. I blame it all on John Thompson. Back in the 80s, his philosophy was to beat up on a bunch of nobodys at the start of the season to run his record up to 11-0 and build confidence in the players. Therefore, the Hoyas rarely played Maryland, Virginia, or anybody else good even though they were nearby. They did the same thing this year. Thankfully, the school fired Esherick (a longtime Thompson asst.) so maybe the scheduling will start to change. I would like to see annual games against GW, MD, and UVA. The days of playing a weak non-conference schedule and depending upon the Big East play to earn an NCAA bid are over.