Hi Everyone,
Here in B.C. Canada we have just reverted to using NCAA Men's rules at all levels after 25 years of FIBA. The interpretation re: Backover seems to have changed with the exceptions. I understand that on Throw-ins the centre line disappears and anyone can catch the ball while airborne and travel from front court to back with no violation-This is also true for jump ball situations. When the ball is inbounds a pass may be intercepted by the defence while airborne and again the defence can carry it from front to back with no violation. What about the offence?? Why can't they catch a pass thats coming from their back to front court while airborne and go from front to back without violation or is this legal??? What if A1 in the front court is passing to A2,also in the front court, - A2 sees its going to be intercepted -leaps and catcheswhile airborne it and the leap causes him to land in the backcourt.Violation right?? It seems to me that the defence is gaining unfair advantages from these exceptions. What is the call if in the last example A2 catches it airborne but before he lands backcourt B1 creates a held ball while they both are airborne-Do you have a held ball-AP or back over call??? Unfortunately I don't have a case book yet so I need your help!!!!
YIBB
Pistol

The offense is held to a higher standard because they can ( or should be able to) control the play -- when and where to pass it.

On your last play (held ball in air, then land in back court), it's a held ball since that happened first. The ball became dead and it doesn't matter where the players land.

I am not familiar with all of the exceptions that are in the NCAA rules, but I see no problem with the defense being treated just slightly differently than the offense. Once the offense has established the ball front court, they are responsible for maintaining that position and they are responsible for any backcourt violation that occurs. They put it there, they must keep it there. The defense does not really have team control in front court (except by a very technical interpretation of the rules) when they intercept a pass while airborn and moving toward their backcourt. I think it is a sensible exception that rewards good defensive play. Any similar play by the offense is poor offensive play and should not be rewarded.

Hey - if you guys are not using FEEBLE (FIBA) rules anymore, then stop spelling in metric! ;)

Hey (Peter)Pistol

I too am from BC and am enjoying the change from FIBA to NCAA. Interesting situation for you to think about.

Team 'A' is on offensive and has the ball for a front court throw-in under team 'B' basket. A1 throws the ball to A2, A2 instead of catching the ball, tips the ball into A1 back-court. A1 then runs into the back court and retrieves the ball. What's your call? Don't forget to start your 10 count when the ball strikes the floor in the back-court!


Were you in Vernon?
How did you do on the test?
By the way the BCCAA women are still using CIAU womens rules which are based on FIBA.

keep smiling
SH

Pistol, your 3 scenarios regarding catching the ball and then landing in the back court are accurate. I would add that in EACH case, the player gaining control while in the air could even land with one foot in the front court first and the second foot in the backcourt--all legally. This is part of allowing the player to make a "normal landing" without violating. As to the offensive player, since his team has control of the ball, he is obligated to observe the backcourt restrictions and, as we all know, his position on the court is dictated by where he last touched the court.


Right, it is a backcourt violation.


You could have a held ball here, if both players have a firm enough grasp of the ball. Then it's "AP." But if one player fairly easily ends up with the ball before landing back on the floor, then you would call it accordingly: backcourt violation if A2 ends up with it, or play on if the defense intercepts it.

The "why" of it all is probably more philosophical, but that's the way the rules read as I understand them. The team with "team control" has the onus of watching out for an "over and back" violation, while the other team hasn't controlled the ball yet in their front court so needn't worry about that call.

**Sorry about the duplication of some others' response. A bunch of people responded before I even finished typing. Guess I musta been too long-winded.

[Edited by Todd VandenAkker on Dec 18th, 2000 at 01:17 PM]

Reply to Hoopsrefbc
 

Your question needs to be rewritten I think. If A has the ball under B's basket in NCAA rules A is in his own backcourt to begin with. No I Didn't make Vernon was on holidays in Mexico and we just wrote our test and the results have not come back.

Replys to Backover centre
 

Thanks Guys for all the responses. Your answers confirmed my thoughts but I wasn't sure. Do any of you understand what BCref is getting at??
Pistol

Spelling in Metric
 

We may be lying in bed with the Elephant but we still are faithful to the Queen!!!

Re: Spelling in Metric
 

What's Richard Simmons got to do with this?

Re: Reply to Hoopsrefbc
 

Your right to many years of FIBA, it should be 'A''s basket.

Re: Re: Spelling in Metric
 

Isn't he your new leader.....




Peter,let me know how you did, any questions that you found hard or confusing?

keep smiling
SH

[Edited by hoopsrefBC on Dec 18th, 2000 at 06:22 PM]

1) I'm assuming (partly based on reading the other responses) that the ball is really under A's basket, but it realy doesn't matter.

2) There's no such thing as a "front court throw-in". Out of bounds is neither front court nor back court.

3) Since there's no team control on a throw in, there's no back court violation on this play.

4) Since there's no team control on a throw in, the 10-second backcourt count doesn't start until A gains control of the ball -- not when the ball strikes the floor in the back court.

Re: Re: Re: Spelling in Metric
 

No - our new leader is George "Dumb? Ya!" Bush. That's because he got fewer votes. From now on, teams that score the lesser number of points in a game will be declared the winner by the Florida Supreme Court. (Sorry - no winky face here - it's not really funny)

BOB

I believe that the 10 second back court count would start when the ball enters the back court and not when team gains control. There has been much discussion about this through-out our province. Although the NCAA rule book doesn't directly cover this topic there is an interesting case situation in the 2001 edition that can be used as a referance, A.R. #19, on page 105, part(c). The thing to look at is the comment at the end of the referance

"For men, the 10-second count shall start when the ball goes in the back court, while the 35-second shot clock continues to run."

keep smiling
SH

Without having the NCAA case book in front of me, it is difficult to know what the set up of the case that you describe (A.R. #19). It sounds like the case that was discussed in a thread a couple of months back, where B tips ball into backcourt. In that case, B has not established team control, so shot clock would continue to run and the 10 second count should start when the ball goes backcourt(unless you are of the opposite opinion expressed in that earlier thread!). The 10 second count starts because the elements are 1) team control and 2) backcourt status. In this scenario I have just outlined, A is able to pick up the ball because B was the last to touch in front court, but A retains team control throughout the play.

In the inbounds case described by hoopsrefBC (does the BC stand for Backcourt or British Columbia?), the reason it is legal for A to go retrieve this ball is different. Team A was last to touch, but can go get the ball because it has not established team control. No team control in front court no backcourt violation. No team control in backcourt, no 10 second count. 10 second count should start on team control in backcourt, which is established when A1 picks up the ball. This is all said without NCAA rule or case book, so I will concede that NCAA may differ from NF on this rule.

One more thought. Suppose A2 executes a controlled tap to A1 who is cutting backcourt after inbounding ball in such a manner that it looks like a set play (give and go). Can you determine that A2 established control? What if they run this play 3 or 4 times as a set play? If so, wouldn't we have a backcourt violation when A1 touches ball?

Backover-Reply to Hoopref
 

SH, I agree with Bob- On OOB no contol -no violation- No count until control gained. In the example on P105A.R. I9 I don't believe this is a pass from a throw-in and in fact team A is in control therefore in that case the count would start and continue until B took control-In your case, the ball is out of bounds with no team control ever established. Although I don't have any recent NCAA case books I have many early ones that go a way back but quite frankly this aspect has never changed as far as I know in the last 50 years that Ihave played and reffed the game.I will look through those books and see if your case is there. I would appreciate comments from more of our NCAA "pros" out there so we can resolve this apparent confusion in B.C. once and for all! Also people here are convinced that it's 1 and the ball after an intentional foul and a good basket-see previous thread-We have to get it right!!!
YIBB
Pistol

Re: Backover-Reply to Hoopref
 

Pistol,

I also agree with BOB....no violation.


FIBA intentional foul on a made basket is 1 shot and the ball is put back into play at the division line.

NCAA intnetional foul on a made basket is 2 shots and the ball is put back into play at the spot of the foul.


The reason i asked you about starting the backcourt count is there was a question on the CIAU test that was directly related to that situation and in our association there were about 90% that got it wrong.


[Edited by hoopsrefBC on Dec 19th, 2000 at 02:02 PM]

British Columbia..


Since you said "controlled tap" i would probably call an over and back violation. However would i nomally not call this. I would only call this if i was sure a controlling action(two hands on the ball) had taken place. I'll give the benefit of the action to the player and let the players play the game.

[Edited by hoopsrefBC on Dec 19th, 2000 at 02:01 PM]