NBA mechanics?

[Rich]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Chuck - replace slot with C, and isn't that how all 3-person rotations are supposed to work?

I've watched a few NCAAW games this season, and it amazed me how much the officials ping-pong back and forth, rotating hither and yon. And it seemed that on quite a few occasions that they would get caught mid-rotation.

I know that the NCAAW feel the need to mirror the NBA mechanics in every way, but I sincerely wonder how rotating so often makes the game a better officiated one.

--Rich

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Chuck - replace slot with C, and isn't that how all 3-person rotations are supposed to work?

Yes, Mark, that's exactly my point. The pro and non-pro philosophies are very similar on this. So my question to Tommy was: since the philosophies are so similar, why does he say that it's ok for the pros to run but not the non-pros.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
I sincerely wonder how rotating so often makes the game a better officiated one.

--Rich

The theory, I think, is that it's always better to have two officials ballside. Two sets of eyes on a drive are better than one set of eyes. So however often you have to rotate to keep two officials ballside is how often you go.

Maybe we should just go to 4-whistle crews. Two officials on each side of the basket -- no rotations at all.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Maybe we should just go to 4-whistle crews. Two officials on each side of the basket -- no rotations at all.

But then you lose C - there's something nice about just having to travel the distance between the lane lines on a fast break.

[tomegun]

Chuck, I made my comments about running and off-ball because of off-ball calls not about calling out of your primary. There just aren't many off-ball calls in the NBA. I don't think off-ball calls would fit into their entertainment philosophy. Also, they are seasoned officials and they do almost everything for a reason that is in black and white. If you see high school and NCAA officials on TV they are running around leaning and peaking just to look busy. Finally, high school officials will run across and look at where they are going. There aren't even many camps that speak about officiating the lane as you are walking across. Heck last year the camp I went to didn't even talk about how you should walk across.
In the NBA I would say 90% of the time they rotate once per 24 second shot clock and that is it. If the ball rotates the slot has it.
I will stand by my beliefs that we should not go into a game with the philosophy that it's alright to call outside of our area. Sure things happen and you might have to reach for a call but when the L, T and C constantly know everything that is going on everyplace on the court something is wrong. Even though some might not put it that way, that is basically what is happening way too often.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by tomegun
If you see high school and NCAA officials on TV they are running around leaning and peaking just to look busy. Finally, high school officials will run across and look at where they are going. There aren't even many camps that speak about officiating the lane as you are walking across. Heck last year the camp I went to didn't even talk about how you should walk across.

I'm not a HS official on TV, but I definitely don't "run around leaning and peeking to look busy." In a varsity game, especially in two-person, there's plenty of real contact to keep track of, without making work for myself.

Also, perhaps we have better training camps here in Oregon, because I've been taught A LOT about when to cross over, and when not to, and what to do on the way nad what to do when I get there. I haven't mastered it yet, but it's available to anyone around here that is interested in moving up.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I'm not a HS official on TV, but I definitely don't "run around leaning and peeking to look busy." In a varsity game, especially in two-person, there's plenty of real contact to keep track of, without making work for myself.

Also, perhaps we have better training camps here in Oregon, because I've been taught A LOT about when to cross over, and when not to, and what to do on the way nad what to do when I get there. I haven't mastered it yet, but it's available to anyone around here that is interested in moving up. [/B]

I wasn't talking about you specifically. I also wasn't talking about when to cross over or what to do once you get there. I was speaking more on how to progress across the lane (speed) and what to look at while you are doing it (where you are, where you are, where you are, now you are across) rather than crossing and immediately looking to where you are going to be once you cross. This is a small thing to some but you are on the west coast so I believe you have been schooled on it properly.
I will probably have to agree with you about the camps. The camps I've been to that have addressed this in depth have been on the west coast. I do know at least one guy from Oregon, I think his name is Dave something, and you probably do get better training than other places.
You might not know it but this is my first year on the east coast after moving from the west coast. On the west coast the basketball community overlaps so you probably know somebody that I know. Depending on the camps you've been to our paths might have crossed at the same camp.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by tomegun
Chuck, I made my comments about running and off-ball because of off-ball calls not about calling out of your primary.

Well, then, I still don't see the connection. There are not many off-ball calls in the NBA, therefore NBA officials can run across the lane. How does that follow? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just not following you.

There just aren't many off-ball calls in the NBA. I don't think off-ball calls would fit into their entertainment philosophy.

There aren't many off-ball calls in an NCAA game either. I don't have any stats in front of me, but I would think that the ratio of fouls called on the ball to fouls called off the ball would be roughly the same in the NBA and in NCAA. The fact is that there are simply fewer fouls committed off the ball than there are on the ball. It doesn't have anything to do with an "entertainment" philosophy.

But even if the ratio is significantly different between the NBA and NCAA, how does that relate to the ability of officials to run through the lane?

If you see high school and NCAA officials on TV

I do. . .

they are running around leaning and peaking just to look busy.

Hmmmm. Some do, but the vast majority do not. Good officials move their feet, not just their heads, to see the play. There are a few, even on TV, who do the "chicken peek", but not many.

In the NBA I would say 90% of the time they rotate once per 24 second shot clock and that is it. If the ball rotates the slot has it.

I'd love to see the stats you've compiled to support that claim. I have no idea what the percentage of single-rotation possessions is. But I will tell you flat out that if the ball swings, the Lead is rotating. The philosophy in the NBA, as I said before, is to have two officials ball-side whenever possible. It's very rare that they will leave the Slot on the ball-side.

Next time you watch an NBA game, pay attention to the Lead official. Notice how quickly they close down. As soon as the ball goes across the lane line on the Slot's side of the floor, there will be a rotation (unless the Lead feels a shot or drive is imminent, or unless it's the last 24 seconds of the period).

I will stand by my beliefs that we should not go into a game with the philosophy that it's alright to call outside of our area.

It is alright to call outside of your area, but only in unusual and very specific circumstances. As I mentioned before, I think pro supervisors agree with you. They'd rather miss a borderline call than have somebody reach out of their area to get it right. I think most of us here feel the same way.

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by tomegun
Chuck, I made my comments about running and off-ball because of off-ball calls not about calling out of your primary. There just aren't many off-ball calls in the NBA. I don't think off-ball calls would fit into their entertainment philosophy. Also, they are seasoned officials and they do almost everything for a reason that is in black and white. If you see high school and NCAA officials on TV they are running around leaning and peaking just to look busy. Finally, high school officials will run across and look at where they are going. There aren't even many camps that speak about officiating the lane as you are walking across. Heck last year the camp I went to didn't even talk about how you should walk across.
In the NBA I would say 90% of the time they rotate once per 24 second shot clock and that is it. If the ball rotates the slot has it.
I will stand by my beliefs that we should not go into a game with the philosophy that it's alright to call outside of our area. Sure things happen and you might have to reach for a call but when the L, T and C constantly know everything that is going on everyplace on the court something is wrong. Even though some might not put it that way, that is basically what is happening way too often.

How do you know there are trying to "look busy"? I think that is pretty judgemental without anything to back it up. And what do you mean if the ball rotates then the slot has it when we were just talking about the fact that L busts over to the strong side to relieve the slot? And as far as off ball, I see it at least a few times a game at the NBA level. But that's just me.

[iamaref]

Think the rotation philosophy is simple.

Want 4 eyes on the potential scoring play.

High School (no shot clock) rotate less cuz not sure were the scoring play will be in the end.

College (35 second clock) rotate a little quicker cuz scoring play will likely happen sooner.. as the shot clock will expire sooner.

NBA (24 second clock) rotate immediately (EVEN RUN).. cuz that scoring play is almost certain to happen on the side that the ball is on after crossing the division line.

4 eyes better than 2.. especially in the NBA.

[tomegun]

Chuck, I didn't see your post until now. I will explain what I meant to say. Or what I did say or something

If an NBA official runs across the lane they ref as the go across but they are not likely to call a push away from the ball. Look at a game and tell me if this is correct most of the time or not. Also, simply for the sake of seeing the play clearly it isn't good to run across the paint. I know that is a small thing but it could make a difference.

I agree with you there might be as many off-ball calls in the NCAA as the NBA but they differ. In the NCAA the ball could be free-throw line extended outside the arc on the strong side and C will make a call in the paint on his/her side. In the NBA, lead will make a call on defender pushing a post player where the entry pass is imminent. That is off-ball also but you will generally not see a whistle from some action on the other side of the court unless it is a non-basketball play. Once again look and see.

There are some top-level officials who jump around and it doesn't look good to me. I agree the vast majority do not but you said you see them too so I guess you partially agree with this. It is just a whole bunch of body movement that isn't needed to me.

I watched a game just last night before I even read your post. The next time I see a game I will get a piece of paper and write down how many times they rotate during the shot clock and how many times they rotate more than once during a shot clock. If there is an offensive rebound all bets are off. I will not do this for the entire game but I will make sure to do it for long enough to get a good sample. If you get a chance, can you do the same and we can compare notes? It might be interesting.

I agree with your comments 100% about calling outside of your area. What I don't agree with are the officials who think it is alright to make this a normal part of the game on routine calls. We see eye to eye on this one.

I will catch some games and look at my statements again. I'm not above checking myself

[Mark Dexter]

I dunno - I've seen a couple of the NCAA tourney refs (particularly in the Denver pod) running across the baseline on rotations. Personal style, perhaps? Or has the NCAA come out with a bulletin for its tourney officials?

[tomegun]

Mark, I saw the same thing you did yesterday. It happened a lot in one game in particular. I don't even want to mention the game because that could single out three people. One of the officials in this game looked crisp and solid. The other two looked like they were a wig and red nose away from a circus. I watched objectively to see if there was a formula to what they did. Maybe they pr-gamed something different for some reason. I couldn't come up with anything. The two of them were physically all over the court and I mean all over the court. They were peaking, leaning and jumping around. Plays occured above the three point line literally 8-10 feet from the trail and the lead had a whistle! The trail coming all the way below the free throw line for no apparent reason and then getting beat back. The C stepping onto the court about 8 feet, which is fine if the players are on the other side of the court, but isn't if there are players on the C side that have to go around the ref! This is while one of the players had the ball! I know it might not be right for me to criticize since they are there and I'm not but as a reference there are officials that we all know and see all the time that do not do this and call a great game. I just don't see why some guys do this sort of thing. Maybe they are trying to get noticed so they can move on. I noticed them.

[Mark Dexter]

I don't remember which game, but there was definately one where the C was too far onto the court. Turnover - he doesn't go to the sideline before running back. C gets down to the new C position, and . . . . SETS A SCREEN FOR THE OFFENSE! One of the defenders ran right into him.

That official stayed glued to the sideline at C for the rest of the game that I saw.

[tomegun]

Mark, that made me giggle. We are probably talking about the same game