As has been brought up in the other now famous thread, when
very young kids start out playing most leagues have variations on regular high school rules. I am kinda the rules committee of 1 for our local league (9-10 & 11-12 divisions) and am always looking for a way to improve things. The rules we use now are NFHS with the following exceptions.

No timeouts.
No full court pressure except in the last 2 minutes of the game.
Each player must play at least one and a half quarters.
Each player must sit out at least one half of one quarter.
No free throws except in the last 30 seconds of a game with a spread of 6 points or less, and any time for a flagrant, intentional, or technical foul.
When not shooting free throws, if a player is fouled in the act of shooting his team takes the ball out of bounds even if the shot is good.
Games are very short, set up on 30 minute time slots. 6 minute quarters with a running clock, which stops only in the last 10 seconds of each quarter, and the last 2 minutes of the game.

The no zone defense rule was formerly used, but was eventually scrapped. I personally was strongly if favor of getting rid of this rule, because I feel it turns the games into one on one contests, though I know this rule is very common at this level. I would welcome discussion of this point and any others on this subject.

Questions:

1. Why no timeouts?

2. Why no free throws?

3. If you are not shooting other free throws why shoot the ones tied to extreme behavior(T's,intentional,flagrant)? I'd think you'd want to make sure those fouls were punished with 2 points,that were automatic.

Comments:

I never liked the no press UNTIL rules.Either press or don't,what I've seen is games go in the toilet at the end.

AHHHH! Too many rules. Have timeouts, just not as many. Shoot foul shots, have the full court press in the 4th quarter except if up by a certain amount of points.

I as a referee get confused as I go from grade to grade for which rule is which and have to look at them before the game. Keep the rules more simplified IMO.

These are the variations for one of the youth leagues i ref. I feel that they work well for the level of play.

1. Equal playing time. Game is divided into 8, 4 minute shifts, the kid who plays the most, can't play more than 1 shift more than the kid who played the least.

2. No press except the last 2 minutes in each half.

3. Coaches get 4, 45 second time outs.

4. All field goals are worth 2 pts.

5. Swearing at any time for any reason = immediate disqualification/ejection

6. Referees can eject parents

7. You can play any defense you want.

8. No jump ball, alternating possession is determined by coin toss.

I think that this is it. When i go home, i'll have a look in the rulebook to see if there are any more variations. Otherwise its a pretty good league. The only problem is that the refs aren't affiliated with the local board. The refs are just high school students that are trying to do their volunteer hours. So the officiating isn't always the best quality.

Just got home from doing three games in one rec league, and then two more in a different rec league. Man, talk about confusing....

I like a no-zone rule from a player's point of view, but it's so difficult for the refs to adjust to! I almost wonder if it wouldn't be worth it for the league to hire an additional official who would stand under the basket and just watch for the one-on-one. I know it would be expensive and take some more adjusting but it might be worth thinking about.

When my daughter played, she was in one spring league that used a no-free-throw format, but it was an automatic two points for every foul that would have been any kind of shooting, and ball to the team that fouled, just as though the shots had been taken. Automatic three for the T's and intentionals. I liked it because it really taught the girls to play clean. Also, in spring league where the skills are a little rusty, it gave higher scores, and made it a more encouraging, up-building situation. I still think it would be a great way to run a running clock game.

For most kids with less experience, I like the no back court defense rule. It cuts down a little on the score disparity when teams are widely different in skill.

I like ref18's idea about refs tossing parents. I could have used it today!

Now, now, Juulie. Here's a little lesson in stress management that you might find useful. I often use this after dealing with difficult parents:

- Take a deep breath, relax, and slowly and thoughtfully picture this in your mind:

<i>" Picture yourself near a stream. Birds are softly chirping in the crisp, cool mountain air. Nothing can bother you here. No one knows this secret place but you. You are in total seclusion from that place called 'The World'. The soothing sound of a gentle waterfall fills the air with a cascade of serenity. The water is crystal clear. In it, you can easily make out the face of the a$$hole parent whose head you are holding under the water"</i>.

Works for me.

A local association uses modified rules. Visit http://www.kwyba.com/info_rules.htm and http://www.kwyba.com/info_divrules.htm. There are age ranges from 7 - 18.

JR, isn't this the nature CD that you bought?

If you're playing with a no zone rule, also liberalise the penalty slightly for a zone defense by using an NBA-style illegal defense (no zone in the restricted area when player is not guarding anyone) technical foul -- one free throw and the ball, and it cannot be used for an ejection.

Let the ejections be for serious unsportsmanlike conduct -- not for simple procedural mistakes which are not unsportsmanlike, such as illegal defense or delay of game.

Our association officiates games that incorporate the no-zone rule, and we do not enforce this illegal defense rule. It is up to the site convenor to enforce. We only work with the fed rules, any major variations like the no-zone is dealt with by the league and not us.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Questions: 1. Why no timeouts? 2. Why no free throws?

It is all about saving time. After roughly a jillion of these games, we have still not weighed all the angles, be we have decided that timeouts and free throws at this level cost more in time consumption than they add to the game.


The key word is extreme, as you say, and we want to emphasize that this behavior will not be tolerated. This has been debated, be we have decided against putting automatic points on the board for any reason.
This is also debatable, but we have found that too often this results in either the ball staying on one end for too long at at time, or the game deteriorates into a contest of length-of-the-court passes and layups.

Another rec league i do has the following variations:

1. 2 20 minute halves, running time except last 2 minutes of game
2. Shooting fouls, you get 1 shot to make 1, 2, or 3 points. (depending on foul)


Other than that its normal high school rules. The only problem with this league is that its about a 30 minute drive to the site, and its not worth it because than your whole morning is practically gone when you could've done 3 or 4 games in the same time frame.

from the above website:

MINOR ATOM/ATOM (age 7-9) Convenor: Vlad Hrubik 747-5505
1. Defense will be man-to-man and half court. No double-teaming unless offense dribbles into it.
2. No stealing on the dribble.
3. There are no foul shots. Normal fouls shall be in-bounded by fouled team. When bonus is reached, fouled team will receive 1 point and ball. If fouled on a shot team receives 2 points if missed, 3 points if good, defense takes ball.
4. Officials will call the following: double dribble; 5-second inbound violation; travelling;over and back (if gym size permits); 10-second violation;5-seconds closely guarded (only if no passing)
5. Team allowed one 30-second time-out per half (clock keeps running).

We have no stealing on the dribble, but we do have a 5 second closely guarded violation? (only if no passing...what does this mean??) As to the man-to-man requirement which I believe goes all the way up to the 13 year olds, and also includes no double teaming unless offense dribbles into it? Did the person who wrote these rules ever try to get on the court and enforce them? I would like to hear an explanation of how you keep one outstanding player from totally dominating a game if he must always be guarded one on one. Also, in spite of everyone's best efforts, I sometimes find it difficult to tell what kind of defense a team is playing. I would think it would be tough to call a technical on 7 year olds for illegal defense.

You are correct that in a running clock game shooting free throws eats up a great deal of playing time, especially with young kids because they don't know exactly where to line up.
However, if you only give the team that is fouled in the act of shooting the ball OOB, a smart coach will figure out that every time the opponents have an easy shot, his team should simply hack the shooter.
A way to fix this problem is to simply award a point as well as the ball OOB, or award two points and give the ball to the other team along the end line. I officiate a high school summer league that does this. It really speeds up the game, gets the kids more actual basketball plays, and discourages fouling.
I also agree with automatic 2 for Ts, flagrants, intentionals, etc.
Rec league/summer league is not the time to practice free throws.

As a coach, I love the no zone rule at this age. 9 and 10 year olds do not shoot weel enough from outside to consistently defeat a zone. Also, you don't teach the kids how to play D. It tends to be a way to win without regard for teaching the kids anything.

However, I do think you should be allowed to play helpside. So, our elementary program has adopted an exception to the zone rule. You may double team the ball anytime it is in the lane. Otherwise, you must stay reasonably close to your man.

I agree that 9-10 year olds do not shoot well from outside, but I disagree that this is a reason to outlaw zone. Some at this age (and older) do not have an attention span long enough to guard one player for the whole game, some of which are not involved at all in the offense.

I don't understand what you mean when you say that you don't teach kids to play defense. Whether man or zone, there is plenty to teach on the defensive side, one main thing being move your feet.

I also strongly agree with your exception to the no zone rule. Not being allowed to help out on defense when a player drives to the basket is about as contrary to "real"
basketball as you can get.

One youth parochial league I worked had a 15 point no press rule. Team leading by 15 or more cannot press full-court, only half-court. An age group or two within that leage bans full-court pressing until the 4th quarter, unless the 15-point margin is in effect.

Another youth organizational league I worked has a similar no press rule, only the team that leads by 15 or more must contain their defense within the 3-point line. They cannot even reach over the line to slap the ball away or the like.

Pros: Gives the trailing team an opportunity to run their offense without giving up the ball before setting up. Lets the kids play ball without getting their self-esteem shot to hell.

Cons: Gotta remember which league I'm working, and which age group within the parochial league. Headache after 3 or 4 games on one Saturday afternoon after trying to enforce these rules.

One note I might add is that despite the 15 point no-press rule, I still see some unheavenly blowouts (these leagues are either church schools or church youth organizations leages) that would shame some high school varsity teams.

Local CYO Rules
 

Let's see if I rmeber our local CYO rules (I'm 2 years removed)...

1] No pressing before December 1st. Pressing allowed ater Jan 1 as long as you're not up by 10+ (4th-6th grade) or 20 (7th/8th grade). Pressing being defined as backcourt defense or trapping above the three point line. Penalty: Warning followed by T's.

2] On the 4th-6th level each player must appear in 2 quarters but notmore than 3. If a game goes into overtime, there are no restrictions.

3] If a team is up by 20, they must keep 2 starters out of the game. If a team is up by 30, all starters must leave the game. Penalty: Same as #1 above

4] No three pointers on 4th-6th level. Allowed in 7th-8th level. Also, if a school has it's own gym without 3 point lines, it's an automatic forfeit loss. If the school uses another facility's gym, the requirement doesn't apply.

I have my opinions on these, but on the whole I appreciate what they are trying to do.

[

I don't understand what you mean when you say that you don't teach kids to play defense. Whether man or zone, there is plenty to teach on the defensive side, one main thing being move your feet.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't think kids that only learn zone learn how to move and read and anticipate as well as kids that have been taught only zone. Most youth league coaches that use zone have the same philosophy as you, the kids are not smart enough, or attentive enough to play man to man. That is just not true. My daughter's 1st and 2nd grade team plays great man to man D. Sure, they don't always stay with their girl, but they are learning. If I just told them to stay in a spot and play that area, they would not learn near as much.

Yes, we do have the 5-second count too. I'm not sure about the "only if no passing." We enforce these rules as best we can. Usually the first time in the game we are reminded by a coach. We then catch it the enxt time.

This is just a kid's rec league. There is not one kid who can dominate the game. In fact, as I understand it, there is a draft!

We also have a draft, which is one of the flaws of our league. The coaches draft their own teams, and too many are totally clueless about the game in general and/or the skills of the players. Also, some will pick their own child's friends/schoolmates rather than the best available player. "Okay, baby, who do you like now?" Another coach was heard to say, "She should have picked this one and hoped that her kid could learn to like her."

[Edited by just another ref on Mar 15th, 2004 at 02:05 PM]

1. No zones! (It is not hard to teach m2m to little kids. Sure, they may be chasing around behind their "man" much of the time, but it is not hard to teach them to stay between thier "man" and the basket. Help defense can get introduced as the kids gain a little more experience. They can always learn to play zone when they are older if they get the right skills early. Also, at the beginning of each period, the teams line up for a match-up. There are even some leagues that give each player on each team one of 5 different colored wrist bands. Your "man" is the player with a matching wrist band.)
2. Substitutions only at the end of periods unless injury.
3. 8 minute running clock quarters, except last 2 minutes of game.
4. No player may play more that 2 quarters unless every player has played 2.
5. No player may play more that 3 quarters.
6. Every player must play at least 1 quarter.
7. No full court press
8. 8 1/2 foot baskets
9. No 3 point baskets.
10. Officials have authority over parents/spectators.

Of yeah, no Green Bay Sweeps ;).

I find the "no double teaming but help is OK" among the silliest rules in rec basketball. Young girls (5th/6th grade) program. A1, dribbling across the division line, beats B1, and is immediately picked up by B2. Absolutely perfect help defense. But it is also 40 feet from the basket and not allowed. Or big girl has ball in low post, back to basket. Guard is directly behind her, hands straight up. A second defensive player comes over and knocks ball out of hands. Legal? Not to me. This is not help defense -- but is great defense.

My other gripe -- no back court defesne for most young rec (and travel) leagues. If an offensive player makes a pass to no one -- or even to someone on the other team -- the defensive player is not allowed to touch it or catch it. I call it, but then moan that it's a horrible rule.

[Edited by BayStateRef on Mar 15th, 2004 at 01:07 PM]

This is a rule which has evolved over time in our league
because of just what you mention here. Once a player loses control in the backcourt, all bets are off. This can be a pass to no one or to the wrong team, as you describe, or if a dribbler bounces the ball off his/her own foot, it is anybody's ball, help yourself. Also, on a related subject, it used to be since there was no backcourt pressure allowed, when a foul occurred it did not count. The kids caught on to this, I think, and often took a casual whack at the ball/ballhandler as they passed, and whatever they hit was of no consequence. Now we do count the foul in the backcourt, and the problem has been minimized.