1) Player A1 comes down on a fast break and try to pass it to A2,while passing it, it miss player A2 and hit an official so is it legal for A1 to recover the pass before it has touch any other players and continue dribling?

2)How about if player A1 pass to what he thought was a teammate and realized it was not and try to hold back the pass but it sliped out, can A1 be the first to recover it before it touches anyone else?

1) The pass that hits the official is the same as the ball hitting the floor. A1 can recover the pass, but can not dribble the ball, this would be a double dribble violation.

(Page 22, casebook, 4.4.4 Situation)

2) Yes A1 CAN recover the ball and touch it before anyone else. This would fall under the "fumble" category.

(Page 33, rules book, section 21) "A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips froam a player's grasp."

If A1 has already dribbled, then it's a double dribble to recover the ball. If A1 hasn't already dribbled, then A1 can recover the ball.

Quote:

2)How about if player A1 pass to what he thought was a teammate and realized it was not and try to hold back the pass but it sliped out, can A1 be the first to recover it before it touches anyone else?

The official must judge whether this was a pass (see ruling 1) or a fumble. IT's legal to recover a fumble.

Bob -- I have some questions. Are we assuming that this is a two handed pass? Dribble, two-hand pass, no recovery allowed? I thought recovery was allowed, but not another dribble.

Also, if he could recover by a continued dribble, with one hand only, would that be legal?

Rainmaker, that was my thought on the issue for situation 1. If this is a one-handed pass (where he did not end his dribble first), he can recover the ball off of the official and continue the dribble. If he recovers the ball off of the official by grasping it, that would effectively end his dribble and he cannot dribble again. If he recovers the ball by pushing it back to the floor there is no violation.

Okay, I understand that. But if he ended the dribble with a two-handed pass and it hit the ref, that's not a fumble, so he can't recover?

If it is a one-handed bounce pass, I can see what you are saying. If it is a one handed pass that stays in the air, this would be a carry if he recoverd the ball, or simply a double dribble.

Rainmaker, here is your answer to that question.
Hawks Coach, I concur. Almost anyway. If it is a one-handed pass that hits the official airborne then the same player gets to the ball before it touches the floor, this player my push the ball to the floor and continue a dribble. (Remember, hitting the official is like hitting the floor.)

That being said, I’m not sure I would get this 100% right. It’s a weird situation that is worth staying out of the way to avoid.


[Edited by footlocker on Mar 10th, 2004 at 12:59 PM]

After it hits the official, why does it matter whether it hits the floor or not?

It doesn't, in my estimation. I was just saying that if it wasn't a bounce pass, it isn't a downward push, and therefore would either be a carry or a double dribble if A1 were to atempt to continue to dribble. If the pass was a one handed bounce pass, I would say it could be considered a legal continuation of a dribble if it hit the official.

It seem that am getting different answer here, am still confuseed whether its legal or not, I understand the fumble rule but still am lost situation #1.

Let me try to make it more simple, Player A1 drible down the court does a 2 hand chest pass to player A2 but instead it hit an official and comes back to player A1, so can player A1 recover the ball before it is touch by another player.

No, this would be a double dribble. casebook 4.15.4 Sit. C

NO. Explanation: When A1 touches the ball with 2 hands to pass the ball, this ends his dribble. He then throws the ball off the official, which is considered the same as hitting the floor at that spot. This action meets the definition of a dribble (4-15-1) "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times."
Therefore, if A1 goes over and touches the ball again, before anyone else does, it is a double dribble violation.

What some others have told you, which may have caused the confusion, is that A1 could also end his dribble with only one hand. (See 4-15-4a) This would be a judgment call by the official. (Whereas touching the ball with two hands takes all the judgment out of the call; it is a hard and fast rule. (4-15-4c) The dribble has ended.) If the official believes that A1 makes a one-handed movement that ends his dribble and begins a pass, then the above violation would still apply.
If the official decides the one-handed movement did not end the dribble then A1 may recover the ball. If the recovery is with both hands that ends the dribble and he may not now start a new one. If the recovery is with one hand, A1 may continue his dribble, if the ball doesn't come to rest in that one hand.

Beautiful explanation Nevada!
 

That sums it up rather nicely.

Thanks for clarifying, JAR, and for the good explanation Nevada. Now I'd like to change the situation again and ask another question. Start wit hthe scenario that xxxssmen gave, but after it bounces off the ref, say that it touches A1's leg, or body. Is that also a double dribble? Is it nothing?

Don't know the technically correct call or no-call
 

But I would have incidental contact!

I don't think you want to look to call something on this, but the catch pass, hit ref catch and/or dribble scenario has to be called. I would go fishing here.

In all cases, it's a violation.

Once the player picked up the ball, even briefly with one hand, the dribble ended. The ball hit the official...the same as hitting the floor. If the player touches it again, its an illegal dribble.

The only time a player is permitted to recover a ball that has been dribbled (and otherwise untouched) is when they fumble the ball. A pass is not a fumble.

All cases refers to what Camron? One case I gave ivovles a player who is dribbling, then changes the angle of his downward push on the ball to initiate a bounce pass. If the player goes to recover the ball, with or without contact with the ref, that recovery is legal.

Even though we al know it was an attempted bounce pass and not a dribble, nothing that the dribbler did ended the dribble. He simply pushed the ball to the floor again.

That is the only case I can think of where the dribble would not be ended with a pass. Not that common (but may see it a couple of times a game), and probably not what the original poster intended.

To pass the ball, the dribble must end. Most one handed passes I see turn the ball sideways and this case sounds no different. In the original #1 scenario, the "passed" ball went by a teammate and hit an official. I've inferred that the distance the ball traveled was inconsitent with pushing it to the floor but was actually a catch and throw.

My all cases was to cover whether it hit the floor or not, hit the official or not, etc.

If the ball was pushed to the floor as if a bounce pass to a teammate that was really close, I would agree that it could be considered just part of the dribble.

For the #2 case, it would always be legal to pick up the ball.

rainmaker,

Look again at the definition of a dribble that I posted: (4-15-1) "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times."

Now do you think that the ball bouncing off a player's leg is a second dribble?
That should answer your question.

PS Thanks to you and Hawks Coach for the props.

I don't know if it SHOULD answer my question, but it doesn't. What I think is really not as important as what Howard thinks. How I interpret something will get me out of a jam (sometimes) on an issue I haven't studied, but the important point is how the rules committee wants it interpreted.

So on this particular issue, I don't think that if the ball bounces back and hits the player again it should be a double dribble. But it sounds like Camron thinks it should. He knows Howard better than I do, so I'm taking his word for it. Unless I'm misunderstanding what he's saying, it's a double dribble in my book from now on.

rainmaker
That's why I was asking Camron which cases he was referring to, but in retrospect, I realize that it was probably so disjointed that my point was not at all made. o, in the interest of being cler. . .

Camron!
In your opinion, is a pass by A1 that hits the ref then contacts A1 in the knee a violation on A1? Or does A1 have to touch the ball with one or both hands after it strikes the ref? I say the latter, but I wasn't clear what you position was.

This is certain getting into the realm of wacky plays!! ;)

But, why not...

It'd have to be a controlled/deliberate touch...not a richochet.

This is really getting into pure judgement of what to do and probably depends mostly on how the actions are interpreted. I'm sure this one could have a few supportable conclusions.

OK, May I have a try at this play? Thanks. The Knee, hand, beehind, Makes no difference. What do you have if while dribbling, the ball touches the hand to push down for a dribble and before it hits the floor the ball touches the knee?

interrrupted dribble - good point - but I am not sure how this applies to a dribble that has ceased. I think that Nevada's definition of the dribble provided the best guidance - if you aren't pushing the ball to the floor, you aren't dribbling. So I see pass, ricochet, bounce off any body part except the hand as just a touch, not a double dribble. Go ahead and reach out and touch or grab the ball, you have a violation.

I concur.
Justice Nevadaref