Is this bragging? Well, good for you fancy pants. I'm tired of this mentality. And I know that many more officials have made this sad statement. BktBallRef, I have read your posts and know that you provide insight and intelligence (so I’m sorry if you feel I am picking on you, but this is directed towards many).

This statement is elitist. Is this some way of saying that any official that Ts a coach has already let the game get out of control? Therefore, a technical foul on a coach is a direct reflection of the quality of the official? Come on.

“Hey guys, I haven’t called a travel all year! When I show up everybody knows not to try that with me.” It’s ridiculous. Referees that have this mentality or make it an objective to go the entire year without T’ing a coach often let themselves get abused because of this philosophy. Walking onto the floor knowing or believing that an official should not call a T on a coach because it is a reflection on him is not very bright. Why? Because when the coach earns it, the ref will be fighting giving it because it would go against his basic philosophy.

Coaches earn Ts. We have to be willing to give them out when the situation arises. I gave out two Ts this year. None last year. Was I a better official then? No. However, two times this year a coach crossed the line and I took care of business. End of story.

Perhaps all they are trying to say is that they had good game management all year and that no situations arose that warranted a T.

You know that it is possible to get along with coaches and that you don't have to go around T'ing them up all the time.

I didn't read that he does not ever give any out, just that there were no situations for his this year that warranted any....

I'm sure BktBallRef can speak for himself, but I didn't read this as bragging. If you read this in the context that it was, it was just a response to the statement by mnref14 that officials are in too big of a hurry to drop the ball on teams coming late out of timeouts.

As stated by mnref14 "I have never seen a game helped along by an official putting a ball down after a timeout. I can't imagine any coach saying after a game, thanks for putting the ball down after the TO - it made the game go a lot better. Officials too often are trying to teach somebody a lesson with this mechanic."

Sounds like you're barking up the wrong tree.

A "T" is a tool in our bag to use if we feel we need it to control a game. If we can use other tools to prevent getting to that point, that's good preventative officiating and we're better off.

I give less T's than I used to... yet I expect better behavior from coaches than I did in previous years. My expectation of sportsmanship is higher than it used to be yet I haven't given a T in about a year-and-a-half.

When I started, I just reffed the game between the lines and didn't notice signs of frustration or see when a "situation" was developing. I'm a lot better at game management now and I think I head things off before they get to critical mass.

That doesn't mean that I won't give any T's next year.. part of it is luck too. I had real good partners this year and also most of the coaches have seen me many times before and know my expectations now.

We have a couple refs who go looking for T's and lead our association in technicals every year. If they went on the court with a different attitude, they might only have to give one once in a while. They create an adversarial relationship which causes them many problems. I have a whole different pregame when I ref with them... I tell <b> them </b> to just ref between the lines and I'll handle the game management. So far that has worked... knock on wood.

From reading Tony's posts over a long time, I would surmise that he's a pretty good game manager and heads things off before they get bad. I would also surmise that he sure isn't afraid to give a T when needed.

Z

Perhaps you should put that quote in context,before you attack.

My partner and I never T'd a coach all season either,and I absolutely don't have a "let's not T a coach philosophy." We did not have a coach that earned it,we had a few,"That's enough,coach," but no coach went over the line.

My partner and I work hard on game management,we try to be approachable and don't have a problem with questions.This does not mean we won't T if it is needed,but we should not have to handle EVERY situation with a T,or a threat of a T.

This is just as bad. Are you insinuating that giving a T is a sign that you don't have good game management skills?

footlocker
If you want to rip somebody, at least have the decency to read what he said in full, as well as the initial post to which he was responding. The initial post lumped those who are putting the ball on the floor with those who are quick to T, i.e., generally on their high horse and have no game managment skills. What Tony was saying is that he will put the ball on the floor if the situation warrants, but, by the way, don't lump him in with the "can't manage a game, quick to T" type A's that you are citing because he hasn't Td any coaches this year.

ANd i believe that if he needed to T a coach he would. It is worht bragging about not having called a T on a coach, and it is far different than saying he hasn't called a traveling violation. One would indicate tha he manages games well, the other would indicate that he refuses to enforce the traveling rule (or had an amazing season of perfectly played games!)

Uh oh... not the game management stuff again...

Let me rephrase my statement...

Perhaps all they are trying to say is that they had good GAMES all year and that no situations arose that warranted a T.

BBall Ref Was Replying To Something I Said
 

He was just adding to his point.

BlindZebra, I like your mentality and explanation of your philosophy. Honestly, it may happen that you have to T 8 coaches in a season; but too many officials enjoy being combatitive like an MLB umpire. As for me, I prefer to keep the lines of communication open; if a coach can't handle that - then we'll have a problem.

I had a coach(who lost by 20 to a superior team) come into our lockerroom just before my partner and I left one night this year. He said, "thanks a lot for being willing to talk to us." He went on to say that it was one of the 1st times all year someone would answer a question or discuss anything with him and his staff. His assistant then chimed in that a lot of times they get the "wave off," from officials. Now, whether it was deserved or not - this coach has in his mind that officials are unwilling to communicate with him and on many cases dismissive - what good does that do anyone?

BTW Rich... looks like I was not the only one using the game management statement...

There is an "and" in that quote from cmckenna, and it probably should be italicized. If you have no game management skills, you will hand out some unnecessary Ts. If you have good game management skills, you may still be forced to T if coaches cross the line despite your best efforts. It is the presence of good game management skills coupled with no serious situations arising that result in zero Ts. I can't see taking offense at that concept.

Lots of Ts, you probably have some game management issues. 1 or 2 are hardly different than zero in my book, just that in some cases, all the game management skills in the world won't keep a coach from crossing a line. But if you are doing a good job and not too quick on the trigger, the number of Ts will probably be pretty small.

I have never T'd a coach. Of course, that probably says more about the fact that I've really only had about 2 "full" seasons in my roughly 7 years of officiating.
I do vividly recall one situation where I should have T'd a coach but never pulled the trigger.
I always listen to questions (assuming it's a question), but not to officiating from the bench. I ignore the coaches who ask for three seconds, traveling on a throw in, reaches and over the backs. I will answer a coach when he asks why I called his kid for traveling on a failed jump stop or if he asks where the contact was on a shot attempt.
Communication isn't just for our partners. I've noticed coaches are far more willing to stop officiating if I'm willing to give a quick explanation of a call.

footlocker, I’m sorry if you feel I am picking on you, but your post is bull$hit. Perhaps you should read the ENTIRE post, rather than taking one statement out of context.

I wasn't bragging about not having T'd a coach this year, nor am I an elitist. I simply correlated my stand based on two separate issues that mnref chose to group together.

He wrote, "I have never seen a game helped along by an official putting a ball down after a timeout. He also wrote, "I just think a lot of us are too quick to become adversarial with coaches, and it is just not necessary. If you find yourself T'ing coaches left and right, the problem may be you." In short, he said that officials who put the ball on the floor and who T up coaches are bad officials.

I, myself do place the ball on the floor from time to time. But I haven't T'ed a coach this year because I didn't have one who "crossed the line." So, where does that put me in mnref's hierarchy of officating?

I don't having a problem throwing a T when needed. But I don't usually brag about it when I do and I haven't previously disclosed that I didn't call one this year.

Next time, read the whole post and comprehend.

__________________________________________________

PS - After posting, I then went back and read what others posted. I'm glad to see my comments in the other thread were understood by everyone else. Thank you gentlemen.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 9th, 2004 at 05:22 PM]

I gave 2 T's in 42 games this year. And they were after clear warnings to the coach: "That's enough coach."

I give out fewer than in years past, but some situations warrant it.

When I was coaching, a T would get me back to coaching and stop officiating. That's a good thing.

Next year, maybe no T's. Who knows? But it's nothing to brag about, either way.

Ok, here is the problem. If I wanted to continue the thoughts about the old thread (game management revisited) I would have just added a reply.

The fact is, I wanted to post a new thread because I am introducing a new thought. I read your entire post BktBallRef. I get your point. At first, I did not make the correlation that you inferred. My apologies. I intended on posting this new thread to make a point about what officials say.

As I stated, this statement has been made before on this site and, I have heard it spoken by officials in my association. When I hear this, many people (maybe not you BktBallRef) are bragging. Clear and simple. There are three different philosophies about T’ing coaches.

1. The ref that goes looking for the coach. “too many officials enjoy being combatitive” - mnref14 (this is out of context too.)
2. The ref that avoids calling the T because they believe that this negatively reflects their skills.
3. The ref that works hard on game management and communication with the coaches but will not allow a coach to go over the line. This official will take care of business when needed

In my humble opinion, cases 1 and 2 are equally dangerous. It should simply be our job to be objective. I don’t appreciate refs bragging about T’ing coaches, nor do I like hearing “I haven’t given a T all year.”

The reason I did not quote the whole post is because I did not want the point to be about “putting the ball down.” You can read what you want to into this post but it is simple- cases 1 & 2 are bad. Case 3 is a hard working official with a healthy understanding of the coaching/technical situation.

Some of you get it. Thanks.

Here's the problem: You're being just as one-sided in your post as mnref14 was in his post.

According to him, if you put the ball on the floor, you're a poor game manager.

According to you, if you say, "I didn't T a HS coach the entire year," you're not taking care of business.

Neither of you may like either of these situations but there's nothing wrong with either. Can good game managers put the ball on the floor? Sure they can. Can a poor game manager put the ball on the floor? Of course. But that doesn't mean that everyone who does it is guilty of poor game management. Can a good game manger call a T on a coach? Damn skippy he can. Can a good game manager avoid a T? Yes. But just because a person says, "I didn't T a HS coach the entire year," it doesn't mean that person doesn't qualify for category #3.

I'm done.

No T's in 54 varsity games this year. I can say that because no coach ever stepped over the line after it was drawn. Once the line is drawn and the coach steps over it, then you need to asses the T.

Of course, I will listen to a coach if he/she is upset about a previous call or wants an explanation. Once an explanation is given or they vent (for lack of a better word), I let them know that we will continue to do our best and promote the contest with as little interference as possible. If they continue to harp on you, abuse you, complain about a previous situation etc..., in my book or philosophy, that will warrant a T (EVERY SITUATION IS DIFFERENT).

PLEASE LET ME STRESS, that this is solely how I do it, you may agree or disagree or agree to disagree but I have not had any problems doing it like this nor have I been abused by an upset coach.

Threw one T to a coach this year. (And a couple or three more to players.) Did the coach earn it? You'd better believe it. My game management skills this year have been my best ever, but this guy was just plain out of line. I've also put the ball down twice or three times this year. Only once in all the past four years put together. Same improvement in game management skills. Just the way the cookie crumbles.

OK, let me get this straight. This season I tossed a coach in my very first HS game...I guess that puts me in category 1...? But I try not to put the ball on the floor...which category is that again??? Damn, this is so confusing!!!

I'm so glad that spring is around the corner and we'll be seeing Robins again.

Beats the helloutta me! I didn't know there were categories until I read this post! :p

Quote:

I'm so glad that spring is around the corner and we'll be seeing Robins again.

You mean Turds? :D

You make a totally off-base post, we all respond to it recognizing the point that Tony was making and telling you that you are off base. At the same time, our posts indicate that most of us recognize the distinctions that you want to make, with many also not wishing to make everything black and white.

The difference is that you come off as absolutist in your posts, the rest of us seem to be more willing to recognize that many different things arise during the course of a season. You can't just look at one indicator (or one game, or one anything) and decide what type of ref a person is. I am not big into the you are either this or you are that treatment of individuals and situations - life is muc more complicated than that. If you want to simplify, then maybe I can put you into a category :)

Well, if you just want to argue fine. You win. I already posted an apology for misunderstanding your post. I am not taking the fact that a person threw a T or not and placing them in a category. I am also not going to bother explaining this. Some officials just choose to get charged up about a post/poster and fly into attack mode.

You read my initial post of this thread. Took it a way which was not intended (largely my fault, due to my misunderstanding of Tony's original post.) I thought I cleared that up in my second post. If you choose to understand that, fine. If not, fine.

My point is about preconceived ideas about how an official approaches a game with regards to coaches and technicals. If you believe that, as an official, you should exercise good game management, resolve potential conflicts with coaches before a situation arises, work hard to maintain the right rapport with the coaches, and are willing to assess the T when and if the situation warrants- then whether you like it or not, you agree with me.

If you think that a T on a coach is a negative thing, which you will avoid at all costs, or that coaches deserve them and you're just the guy to dish them out, then we disagree on philosophy here (whether you like it or not).

If you can't get passed my mistake in understanding Tony's original post on the other thread, then I will wonder about your ability to remain objective throughout the course of a game, season, career.

Next time
 

Why not jump threads with,"Something BktBallRef said made me think," instead of,"Was that bragging mister fancy pants?"

You attacked,over generalized,then accused others of attacking your post.

As for your original idea,I'm sure there are some officials
that do go out of their way to avoid T's.I've seen new officials afraid of pulling the trigger,and I've seen others whacking coaches left in right.If you work hard with experience you learn to handle things better and not sway over to one side or the other.

I've learned over the years that lending an ear,the RIGHT
words,and...if necessary...a stop sign SOMETIMES you can get through a season without nailing a coach.

I apologize if I snipped overly, but i wanted to highlight this sentence.

I am a baseball umpire this time of the season, now that my hoops schedule is over. Last night we had our state rules meeting and then went to a local pub where we had beers and told war stories. All of us at the table are high school and college umpires. The most fun we had was talking about some of the outrageous situations and ejections we've had in the past.

Sometimes this type of talk is just talk. We aren't bragging about ejecting people, but sometimes it happens. It's fun to talk about after the fact sometimes because occasionally you learn something from it and it's fun telling other umpires how outrageous situations and coaches can be.

If I was making the statement how I hadn't ejected anyone all season, it wouldn't be bragging -- it would be pure shock.

--Rich

I've T'd up 19 coaches, and ejected 2 this year. I think that's a pretty good ratio for 200 games, and i'm damn proud of every one of them.

Are you notching your whistle?LOL

Based on my experience, seems a pretty high ratio. I don't see Ts in 10% of the games, and I have seen one ejection (and know of two others that occurred in games I missed ;) ). what level was this at?!

That's a good idea, but i'd run out of space ;)

I keep a record in my day planner of what games involved a T or flagerant foul, just incase i get a complaint about it, and have to write a report. Thankfully, i haven't had any complaints yet.

[Edited by ref18 on Mar 10th, 2004 at 08:28 PM]

I keep track - in case there is a problem later, and (more importantly) so I can track my game management skills. I can happily say that I've gone from an average of 1 T/game in the past two seasons to 1 T every 3 games this year. Recording them has helped to realize when they help the game, and when they're excessive - something that helped me tonight to not inflame a team by calling a T (that probably should have been called) right at the end of a championship game.

Foot,

I agree with you that there are officials out there who have that philosophy, however, i have been on this board for years and the vast majority of officials here don't feel that way. (I'm almost willing to bet that all of us here don't feel that way.)

He said that he has T'd up 19 coaches - that could be only 10 games - or 5% of his games. ;)

What level are you working? I did not get one in high school or middle school games,but I've had 3 in club and rec leagues that makes 3 in about 150+ games since October.

Your ratio does seem high,are you taking notes of what and why,and not just when and who? I'd start giving a closer look at what is behind all your T's to see what,if anything,that you contributed.

Now if you include adult rec leagues,I've called 3 T's this week!LOL

19 T's??????
 

Ref 18 -

Could you please give us a little background - Where do you ref? What level(s)? 19 T's should be a career total if you're working HS/College, maybe you work a City League where Rasheed Wallace sponsors a team. Why are all of these coaches losing control during your games? I'm interested to learn from your situations.

Re: 19 T's??????
 

I don't think you can say "should". There are a lot of different variables that play into this and you can't possibly know what the overview is. He needs to talk to someone who works in his own league, in his own area, to see if this is reasonable or excessive. 200 is a lot of games. As someone else said, he could have had problems with only 10 games. Let's back off the judgment a little.

The only place I don't keep track is in the rec games I work. I'd need a stenographer.

ref18 -- if those technicals were in rec games, then I wouldn't worry about the numbers. Those guys get most of their hoops from the NBA, where technicals flow like Gatorade. When rec players act up the T's start flowing.

--Rich

Rainmaker
 

Is there any chance I could make a post where every word isn't totally dissected???? You sound like Bill Clinton, "it depends what your definition of the word 'should' is." And I'm not judging anyone, I'm just curious. I feel like I'm being attacked by a very sensitive group of folks who run this board, I think I'll call you all the "Politically Correct Officials Forum Protectors." You're always there to make sure no one's feelings get hurt or toes get stepped on, its very sweet of you!!! Have a good day.

If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. This is a discussion board. It's not mandatory that we have to agree with everybody else. You aren't that sensitive to criticism when you referee, are you? Everybody that comes here is allowed to give their own point of view. If that happens to disagree with your point of view, oh well.....

Re: Rainmaker
 

I don't think you can say she "dissected" any word in particular. The tone of her post was more in line with "judgemental" - maybe reword your first sentence to say "Is there any chance I could make a post where my message is not critically judged????" Or something like that.

BTW, I'm left wondering why you need to qualify "dissected" with the word "totally". Doesn't "dissected" strongly imply an act which is done in totality? Maybe not...what do you think Juulie? Can we actually dissect something partially?

Can we actually dissect something partially?

[/B][/QUOTE]I'm willing to try with you. :eek:

I'm willing to try with you. :eek:

[/B][/QUOTE]

http://www.dervishdukot.org/home/hum...aby-Finger.jpg

I'm the sensitive one???
 

Too many softies on this board!!!!!! Yes, Dan - You can partially disect something. And on second thought, if I want to judge someone - I will - even if it makes the softies upset. 19 T's is too many, unless you're working a goofy City Men's League or the NBA. That's my opinion, and I'm most always right. Now I'm stirring the pot!!!!

Re: I'm the sensitive one???
 

And what do you base your opinion on? Do you know all of the circumstances surrounding these T's? Please tell us why these T's weren't warranted. I'd sure like to know.

Re: I'm the sensitive one???
 

Viagara for everybody!!!!!


Well, maybe not Juulie.....

Re: I'm the sensitive one???
 

Sorry, we have a number of folks here who are field qualifed as "Language Expert" but you are not one of them. I can only accept this response for what it is - the opinion of a layman.

Jurassic
 

19 flippin' T's?????? If it is legitimate basketball, I can not imagine how it is possible. To get that many coaches heated up is hard work, I don't know how an assignor would give you games if you gave out that many T's - how many of those were given because of a completely wrong coach who was upset for no apparent reason? I bet 7 tops. The other 12 were probably a result of various reasons, including working 200 games!! I bet my trigger would get short if I worked that much as well. Boy, I'm having trouble handling the heat in this kitchen!!! Be good. Good luck to you all in your State Tournaments.

I'm a teacher, a ref and a laymen

Re: I'm the sensitive one???
 

So over 29 posts in 2+ months, you have told everyone that you're always right, other officials are clowns, etc., etc., and you still wonder why those of us who have been around this board for a while respond negatively to your posts???? If you have clear rules knowledge that someone is wrong, post it and prove it, but coming in here with your "opinions" and spouting off as you have been turns most people's stomachs...

RockyRoad
 

That's 29 posts in 13 months - which is a little over 2 a month; I'll never keep pace with your 200+ per year. Oh well, I believe in quality not quantity. Could you be a little more overdramatic please??? "It turns my stomach," you may be taking this a little too seriously. Do you have clear knowledge that it "turns most people's stomachs." Please don't misquote me, I never said I was always right and I never said anyone on here is a clown - I've never seen with my own eyes anyone on here officiate. Geez, its getting hot in here.........

19 a career total
 

mnref14, I believe you that expect to have a short career as an official, or you do not have the stones to take care of business when the situation arises. What you are really saying is that you never miss a call, the players and coaches always agree with you, the coach never leaves the box, the coach never goes sideways, an assistant coach never pops off about you missing a rebound foul. So I will congratulate you on working the NCAA Championship game this year, oh wait, those guys have definitely T'd up more than 19 coaches in their careers.

I work HS (8 yrs)and college ball (5 yrs). This year, I T'd up 4 coaches in roughly 50 games and there are others that I should've, as Rockyroad can attest. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I have averaged 3 T's on coaches since I started, that is 25 T's over roughly 400 games. I assure you there should've been more, which only exaserbated some situations.

T's are about crossing the line of sportsmanship and where I believe that line is. Your line must be alot different than most of the forum members and definitely Ref18's. What you are communicating to coaches and players is where your line starts, once they understand this about you, they will know when a T is deserved. Your slug line is: big time ref's make big time calls in big time situations. Welcome to the big time!

If you and I are on a crew, I can tell you that it makes me uncomfortable knowing that you might let something go rather than addressing it. I truly doubt that you would have your crews' back, maybe a knife instead.

Whew! it sure is hot in here.

[Edited by icallfouls on Mar 11th, 2004 at 01:39 PM]

I Call Fools
 

Oh, so if I don't T up a certain # of coaches per year its because I don't have sack - I get it. I hear your argument, 19 in a career is Pie in the Sky, wishful thinking. But hey, my career thus far is almost a mirror image of yours - years of experience wise - I work some JuCo, D II and D III all Men's and I just haven't had to T coaches very often. I'm not afraid of it, I just do my best to work with the coaches so its not necessary. And please don't insinuate I don't have my partner's back, that's just not true. I love the attempt at getting me riled though, I love trash talk - but if I ever heard it in a game I'd T someone for it!!!!!!!!! Peace OUT.

Re: I Call Fools
 

Here's what is so annoying about you:

You have absolutely no problem with making blanket statements about people you would not know if you tripped over them in the locker room simply based on the number of T's they claim to throw. Yet you continue to cry like a little girl when folks make blanket statements about you, based only on what you've posted.

You've done your work, you got a big rise out of the crowd, now might be a good time to go back under that rock.

Uh, how do you know exactly what any of those 19 T's were for anyway? How do you know that they weren't all completely justifed? And why do insist on crapping on one of your fellow officials- Ref 18- without knowing any of the circumstances that were involved with these T's?

Every official establishes their own do-not-cross line when it comes to issuing technical fouls. From an assignor's standpoint (and I am an assignor), I basically don't give a a sh*t if somebody calls more or less T's than someone else. I do care that they are keeping the game under control, and are making sure that is played fairly and in a sportsmanlike manner. If that's the end result that they get, then I'm not gonna second guess the guy that ends up leading the "T" parade, nor will I second guess someone that may not call a "T" all year. Both these guys might be doing the same great job, but they're just doing it differently. I do worry about officials who might second-guess another official's judgement, though, without finding out <b>exactly</b> what all the facts were.

Dan
 

Ain't hypocrisy a Son of a Gun????? You've got a problem with me using blanket statements, but you'll assume that I'm a bad guy who crawled out from under a rock because I dared to state an opinion. On this board, and in the world today the only people who are safe are those who don't share their opinions or those who play both sides of an issue; I'm bold and brave enough to stand up and have a target on my back and call it the way I see it. Screw it, until Ref 18(who may do a great job, btw) gets a chance to explain the situations, I'll stand by my opinion: 19 coach T's in a season is too many. My guess is a lot of his/her T's came in non-HS or College settings - I'm interested to hear.

Jurassic - As officials we're not allowed to second-guess each other????? Well I guess we're all just fine and don't need to work to improve, because anyone who would dare second-guess us is wrong. Come on now, this is a fairly competitive profession we're in - second-guessing does and should take place. That's how we seperate the Men/Women from the boys/girls.

Once again, sorry if I'm ruining your day; but we don't need to slap each other on the back and agree all of the time. I've said it before, I feel quite confident that most of the officials who come on here are great professionalls because they care about improving their games.

Re: Rainmaker
 

I think the proper response to rainmaker here would be, "Good point."
Aside from that, you've got it backwards. rainmaker was the one actually reading your exact words. We can only figure out what you mean by reading your words, so you should expectt his kind of response when you say something this absolute. Or, are you suggesting "should" means something different to you than it does the rest of us?
Why is a skeptical response to your post seen as an "attack?"

Re: I'm the sensitive one???
 

Softies? Maybe. Troll? I can think of one without even thinking too hard.

Yes,we are.However, I've been trying very hard not to second-guess you here, but you're making it awful difficult. Why won't <b>you</b> answer any simple questions?

Let me try again:

Please give me just one instance out of the 19 T's issued by Ref18 where you are sure he was wrong to issue that T. Not all 19- just one! Then give me your reasoning or opinion as to exactly why Ref18 <b>was</b> wrong to issue a T in that particular case. In other words, tell us why that coach's behavior didn't really warrant a T in that particular case, and what you would have done in lieu of issuing that T. Remember- you don't have to do that for all 19 T's that you disagree with. Just pick one. You are completely adamant that Ref18 was wrong to issue those T's, so I would just like to know exactly what you are basing your opinion on. I await your answer, so that we can continue our delightful conversation.

Btw, don't mind Dan. He can be a little crude at times, but he means well. He doesn't have the presence, elan and <i>savoir faire</i> of a complete official like yourself, but his personal growth in the last little while has been amazing (even if he still has a potty mouth).

Re: Re: I'm the sensitive one???
 

I won't swallow it!! But there might come a day when I would have a use for it!

I won't swallow it!! But there might come a day when I would have a use for it!

[/B][/QUOTE]Ummmmm......


Nope, not gonna do it. Much as I'd like to. If I did, this thread would be gone in a heartbeat. And I really,really wanna hear MN's answer.

Re: Dan
 

No junior, I don't have any problem with you at all. I just said you're annoying and you whine like a little girl.

Ummmmm......


Nope, not gonna do it. Much as I'd like to. If I did, this thread would be gone in a heartbeat. And I really,really wanna hear MN's answer. [/B][/QUOTE]

You get lotsa points for your self-control!

For all those with the questions, this is only counting this year.

Most of it is rec league, middle school, and rep teams.

I believe that they are a tool, that aren't used nearly as often as they should. In my experience i find that if i let the coach get out of control, the kids tend to follow.

At a camp, an evaluator put it this way, "If you go home regretting not giving a T, then you should've given it."

This season i have no regrets.

I have never T'd up two coaches in the same game, after the first one, they tend to change their ways, and behave.

After reading through these posts, i've got a few more points to add to my last post.

-All of my T's have been justified, a few have been about the negative reactions of coaches to my calls, in particular there was an instance with a disconcertion call, and another one with a player control foul.

I've had one assistant coach ask me why I didn't make a call in my partner's area, i resonded, i was watching my area for off ball contact, etc, and he resonded, well you should be watching the game. Easy T there, wouldn't you think.

As I said most of them came from rec leagues, and middle school leagues, usually where a parent just volunteered for the coaching job. I haven't set foot on a high school court yet, because i'm still in high school. But when i do, i know i have to change the way I handle the coaches.

My assignor seems to like the job i do, because i am constantly getting a very good selection of games. (At least i hope its because i do a good job, not because he can't find anyone else to do them ;)) I've attended camps, I'm going to attend a couple more this summer.

Officiating is something that is important to me, and i always try to be the best official i can be in the hopes of advancing up through high school to college and university ball.

Listen don't take any of the negative posts in this thread too seriously.What I was saying is look at each case and see what happened and why.That is how we learn.I've done enough games at that level to know that the coaching can be nonexistent and they think that their job is to yell at the officials.I tend to be far less tolerant in games with younger kids because if you let the coach go,the kids follow,and why send the wrong message to the kids.

As for changing your ways at the next level,I'd say work on it now.Heck,you may not have much to do,but game management is important.

You have passion,so keep working hard,and always learn from your experiences,both good and bad.

Give um away, never!
 

I never give any technical fouls. You have to earn them. I give so few and they are such a rare comodity that people who get them feel priviledged to have gotten one from me and thank me for sharing such a rare and cherished event!

Ref 18
 

I had a feeling you were probably working a level where you have unexperienced coaches, who probably don't know how to handle themselves in an appropriate manner. Keep working hard, keep taking it seriously, find someone in your area who is experienced and a solid official and follow them around. Good luck. Enough said on this topic for me.

ref18
I really can't tell you, nor can anybody else, what your cut-of point should be. To me, one of them sounded like it could go either way, you chose to make it a T, so be it.

I will say that I have watched numerous HS games this winter (probably 35-40), both varsity and JV. Zero Ts. I saw three coaches who really seemed to want to get Td, and the refs did not do it. These refs managed the games quite well in all cases. I would say that they could have chosen to T the coach in any of 6 games I observed, passed every time.

I just watched three state semifinals last night. One was a double overtime game that had both coaches off their seats numerous times over calls. The most difficult one was a foul called with 0.7 seconds left, game tied in second overtime. Call was very questionable, and coach was clearly upset. Trail dealt with the coach, clearly told him to settle down (appeared to be suggesting that 2 FTs was better than 4+possesion!). All in all, the game was not the best officiated that I have seen this year, but they were not quick to T and they let the play on the court decide the game. At no time did they appear to lose control of things, so regardless of what was said or how it was said, they were able to manage the game without issuing the T. A shorter fuse, and the T probably could have been issued.

All of this means nothing with respect to your case because I haven't watched your games. But I don't see that your Ts are the "had to do it" variety from your descriptions. Over time, if you find that your T rate is higher than most, you may want to think about whether you are handling things in the best manner possible. And you may decide that you are. I believe if you consistently vary significantly from what others are doing, you need to reflect a bit and watch how others handle similar situations to guide your own actions.

One thing to mention is that the threshold for technicals is different in most places in rec and in organized school ball. Coaches can be fined and/or suspended and/or fired if they receive technicals and are usually better behaved because they know this.

I have less tolerance and feel less of a need to work with rec coaches who are simply there as an adult who thinks that Bobby Knight is a good role model. Those guys get whacked early and often when I work. I don't get emotional, I just let them know (with the call) that the behavior is not acceptable.

You find a big difference at higher levels. You will have to be able to talk to a coach and you'll have to agree to disagree on certain things without taking it personally. Less T's but a lot more talking and a lot better communication.

When I was where you are, I probably called a similar number.

--Rich

agreed - and really, most experienced varsity coaches have a lot better rules knowledge than the average rec coach, even if they don't have it all down cold. They also tend to understand the flow of the game and how that effects everything, including calls and no-calls (again -MOST!). So you don't deal with nearly as much stupid stuff at that level, though the exceptions still are out there.

I'm not sure what one you are talking about,he only went into detail on one,and NO WAY an assistant coach says anything even CLOSE to what was described.That is a T EVERY time in my book.

Ref18 is working youth and middle school,there is a very good possibility that there are not ANY varsity officials working those games for him to observe under those conditions.

My question would be,how many other high school aged officials are working these games.Ref18 may be getting extra heat based on age.Coaches may not accept things because of that.

I'll finish with this,I'd be more than willing to work with ref18.

I'm not sure what one you are talking about,he only went into detail on one,and NO WAY an assistant coach says anything even CLOSE to what was described.That is a T EVERY time in my book.

Ref18 is working youth and middle school,there is a very good possibility that there are not ANY varsity officials working those games for him to observe under those conditions.

My question would be,how many other high school aged officials are working these games.Ref18 may be getting extra heat based on age.Coaches may not accept things because of that.

I'll finish with this,I'd be more than willing to work with ref18. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well we have quite a few young officials somewhere between 30-50, but they mostly do rec ball. I'm one of the few who've done a lot of the rep stuff. Last weekend I did the gold medal games for the 4A Atom boys and girls tournament. A lot of the highschool aged officials i've talked to are in it because of the money, and that's why they've probably not advanced that far.

And thanks for your vote of confidence.

Looking back on my notes of the T's i've given, i think there's only one that i'm a bit questionable on. A bit of backround on it, this team has two very lound and abnoxious coaches who've i had the pleasure of reffing at least 20 times in the past. I know with this team that if i don't do something early, it'll get ugly, so I call a very obvious player control foul, the ball-carrier lowered her shoulder and rammed it into the defender. I go to report it, as i'm walking past the bench, the assistant coach says, "Terrible, Terrible Call" I T him up, now the only thing was the way he said it. It was very softly and the only reason i heared it was because i was right infront of his chair. It sort of quieted the whole bench for the rest of the game, and i ran into that same team last weekend, and they were much better than in the past. So, i think it was a very good T, but that's as questionable as they get in my mind.

Assistant coaches should not be talking to you period.Situation wise,this is me now,a word to the head coach to control his assistant might have worked as well.

That is one reason not to go by the bench when you report,you will hear things you may be better off not hearing.

Where does it say that the coach was talking to him? It seems to me, on reading his entire post, that this falls into the category of anticipating the call. He came in expecting the worst, and used the T as a game management tool. I am not impressed with this particular call.

As for the other T he cited, I did not intend to say that it was wrong to T in that specific case. I am saying that it is not an automatic T in that case, in my opinion. Could be given, could be handled in other ways. If you have a lot that are in this category, you will average more Ts than those who use other means first and T only when absolutely necessary.

Again, level of play and the conditions you face week in and week out also play into this, and I am sure that rec ball is worse than HS varsity. So maybe it is a tool that you bring out more quickly. With HS coaches, use the jeweler's screwdriver to adjust at first, and break out the hammer when necessary.

This is very true, i know that high school coaches cannot be handled in the same way. I will have to re-evaluate the way I deal with coaches when i start doing high school games.

Coach,at that level it is about preparing these kids to play the right way.The coaches should be teaching fundamentals and we should be teaching them the rules.

Because of this,and the skill of the coaches at this level,I tend to be less tolerant of working the officials.That comes to the head coach,assistants are under
ZERO tolerance for unsporting behavior.If it is loud it is automatic,if it is personal like,"You should be watching the game," that is automatic too.The other case about the charge,I've addressed that,we should not report fouls close to the bench area and in that case I'd recommend pulling the head coach aside and tell him to control his assistant.