For those kind enough to ask, yes - I do have two children a daughter who is 6 and a son who is 2. With that being said, it was funny to see the walls go up. Don't you think on occasion its ok to debate how we do things? Too often on this board if someone offers an opinion that is contrary, 4 or 5 of the regulars ridicule them - probably without stopping to think if the point is valid. I have never seen a game helped along by an official putting a ball down after a timeout. I can't imagine any coach saying after a game, thanks for putting the ball down after the TO - it made the game go a lot better. Officials too often are trying to teach somebody a lesson with this mechanic. I defy you to watch the NCAA Tournament this year and see this happen, you just won't. Why? Because great officials get those teams out of huddles by communicating. Watch the NBA, you'll never see it; and its not because Rasheed Wallace, Gary Payton, etc. bust out of the huddle hustling to the throw-in spot. Take a step back, think about it - what have you gained by dropping the ball besides the admiration of every Type A personality official on this board??? Yea, I know, that one is going to get me in trouble. I just think a lot of us are too quick to become adversarial with coaches, and it is just not necessary. If you find yourself T'ing coaches left and right, the problem may be you. Just a little March Madness for you all, don't hate me!!! And no, I don't spank my kids very often either!!! Good Play-offs to all.

Actually, you will not see it happen, because at the NCAA level, they do not have the same rule. You cannot do this under NCAA Rules or NBA Rules as well. They have delay penalties and Ts that are possible if this becomes a problem.


And I do not have kids. But I think the reason these kids do as much as they do, is because no one is beating their behinds anymore. And timeout does not work. Because when I as an official try to communicate with these bad a$$ kids, they talk back and try to challenge your authority. If parents would teach their kids to respect authority and stop trying to be their friends and equals, we might not have the same problems today. I cannot imagine have a child that has a stockpile of guns and I as a parent not know about it. But when you allow them to have locks on their doors and a TV in their room with complete privacy, what do you expect?

Sorry but I had to comment on that last thing.

Peace

Agreed, to a certain point. You will get some teams that take advantage of the situation to the extreme, and at some point you cannot penalize a team that is consistently ready at the second horn while the other team dealys for another 10-15 seconds. With that said, I've not put a ball on the floor in years. You've got 2 weapons:
1- After the first delay, take the next opportunity during a dead ball or when you're in front of the coach to ask him to help you out on getting out of the huddle on that first horn. Also, this is one of the rare times when an army of assistant coaches can be helpful to the official. Find one of them who looks responsible standing at the back of the huddle and use him as your intermediary so you don't have to personally bust the huddle. Some of these teams have more assistants than players these days, so there's a good chance you'll find one with nothing to do.
2- If the delays persist, give the whistle an extra long tweet 5 seconds after the second horn until someone in the visiting huddle looks at you. When you get the look, give the body appearance that you're getting ready to put the ball on the floor. This gets them out 95% of the time and usually for the rest of the game as well.

Putting the ball on the floor is one of those situations that an official should not use except in the most egregious circumstances, and if you use your communication and diplomatic skills effectively, you'll only do it a few times in your career.

Well, I won't go so far as saying that your point needed to be posted. However, I'm glad you did. Not sure I agree with it all but it does bring up an interesting point. I work hard to bring players out of the time-outs and have only dropped the ball once or twice this year out of about 60 games. Not trying to assert my authority when I do, just tired of having one team stand around while I yell "white ball" over and over. I can't beg a player to come get it from me.

Point taken. It is not in my personality to be ostentatious about my authority.

Glad you said it because it is true. There are a lot of them. It does take a certain personality type to become an official. This is true at all levels. But having an open mind is also critical, admitting fault is just as important too.

Good point. Coaches can make it very difficult to avoid this approach. Being supporters of each other seems rare. However, I try to make sure it is not because of me.

Why not?;)

This isn't necessarily poor game management.
 

Is this why you officiate? :confused:

If a team delays coming out of a TO, the rule is that the ball is put on the floor. I don't have to do it often but I've never had to do this more than once. Does it make the game better? Yes, it does. Ignore these delays and teams will delay more and more.

As a matter of fact, coaches in my arera expect you to give them the ball or put it on the floor if they've followed the rules and their opponents haven't.

And why shouldn't they?

BTW, I didn't T a HS coach the entire year.

Mn, with all due respect, there are times when officials MUST teach somebody a lesson. The lesson is, when the horn blows, the timeout is over. If you don't want to abide by that, there's a penalty. That's a lesson players need to learn when they are trying to block the shot. There's a penalty if you do it wrong. It's a lesson refs are supposed to teach, and the ref is there to administer the penalty when it's needed. No one is talking about counting to three after the second horn, and then putting the ball down. We're talking about extended delays, stalling, ignoring, and then deliberately flouting.

And by the way, OF COURSE you don't see this on TV. You also dont see the teams stalling in the huddle, and taking forever to get out. They get 3 minute timeouts, for pete's sake, and they get 10 or 20 of them. My 7th grade girls games are on a more rigid time-budget.

I AM a regular on this board, and I do advocate putting the ball on the floor if necessary, but I am definitely NOT a Type A personality that admires people who T the coaches left and right. You need to read a little more carefully to see what people are really trying to say, and not jump to the defensive quite so quickly. And no, I don't spank my kids very often, and I don't advocate spanking kids very often, but a good spank at the right moment is just the thing to teach the important lesson.

Actually, now that I'm thinking of this metaphor, let's go ahead and write it out. All my kids have needed a spank in this one particular situaiton, and it was something I knew ahead of time I would not hesitate to do if necessary. The situation is when the child runs out into the street without looking. When my child would do that, I would take him or her to the sidewalk, and spank them good and hard. I figured the pain would be less, and more life-enhancing, than letting the kid learn it the hard way -- getting plowed by 2 tons of steel at 35 miles per hour. Immediately AFTER the spank, I explained gently, and then we practiced looking before crossing. NONE of my children needed that lesson more than once. But it would not have been as effective as the talking alone without the spank. And it wasn't worth the risk that they not learn the lesson. Spanking definitely has its place. And so does the placing of the ball on the floor after the time out.

I wish I had chosen a different metaphor!
 

Thanks for your open-minded responses. I realize I'm being a bit of an antagonist on this issue, and since we don't know each other from Adam I shouldn't be judging you as officials from a thousand miles away. Maybe players and coaches abuse TO lengths where you are. Also, JRut - I always appreciate your point of view on here; I envision you as a grizzled vet. I think all parents should take the responsibility of disciplining their children in a loving way, and that very well may include spanking and/or Timeouts!!! You're right, there has been a steady decline in respect for authority. Good debate, have a great day.

NCAA Rule 4:

A.R. 32. After a timeout, Team A is entitled to the ball for a throw-in. The referee
blows the whistle indicating that the timeout has ended. When Team A is not at the
designated spot ready to take the ball, the referee shall place the ball on the floor out
of bounds at the disposal of Team A. The visible count begins and: (a) A1 picks up the
ball and releases it for the throw-in within the allotted five seconds; (b) Team A does
not pick up the ball within five seconds; (c) because Team A did not comply with
throw-in provisions after a timeout, Team B is entitled to possession for a throw-in,
but Team B does not get to the designated spot within five seconds after the referee
places the ball on the floor at Team B’s disposal. RULING: In (a), legal play. In (b),
violation on Team A. The referee shall blow the whistle and begin a five-second count
when the ball is handed to Team B for the throw-in or placed on the floor at Team B’s
disposal. In (c), violation on Team B. The referee shall assess a double indirect technical
foul. Each team shall be penalized for delay of game. No free throws shall be shot
by either team. Play shall resume at the point of interruption.

Instead of putting the ball on the floor, try this tactic. After your numerous "Let's go, guys!", go right behind a coach or a player, and hit the whistle long and hard, close to their ear. I've found that usually gets their attention and does the trick.

Put it down!
 

I have been a strong advocate of putting the ball down in these posts yet I have not "put one down" for many years the reason being it has not been necessary because we get them out of the huddle but if they ain't coming out then I will.....! Good officials always try to work with the kids and the coaches but there are times when it is time to not be a nice guy because you are always finishing last. And when it has come to this then it is time to be a man and do what is right and fair for everyone involved. I don't do what I do to be a nice guy but I do what I do because it is my job and that is why I was hired. I am a nice guy but......I have to establish limits because it is the right thing to do.

Imagining the upcoming response...

Well, if you want to advance around here, no good official will call it that way... ;)

imagined responses - part deux
 

I beat my kids, put the ball on the floor, and have T'd every coach in the league for having one foot outside the coaches box.

For those of you that don't know me, its just a joke!

Not so far from the truth
 

You know there are some refs out there that do all of those things, except the beating their kids part. They make it tough on the rest of thus. If I hear it once I hear it a hundred times: "yea, I T'd up so and so..." Great. I don't think losing the handle on a game is something to be proud of. There's a time and a place, but why can I go through a season with 2 T's while another guy/gal may give 20??? No wonder the crowd is out to get us half the time, the 2 clowns that worked the last game were putting the ball down every other TO - T'ing up people for "giving me that look" - calling the Athletic Director because there's no X by the table and T'ing at coaches who stepped out of the box to tell his team to switch to a 2-3!!! It takes all kinds.

So basically what you are saying mnref14, is that you are a better official than others here because you've only called 2 T's this year and didn't put the ball down once on a time-out??? Interesting evaluation criteria...

RockyRoad
 

At no point during my rambling did I say I was a better official than anyone else. Stay above the belt, no low blows please. I'm just expressing an opinion, and some frustrations about officiating on The Official Forum - which I think is as good a place as any. No harm intended.

"Stay above the belt"? Uh, if you back up a little in this thread, I think that you'll find that you referred to some of your fellow officials who don't share your philosophy as "clowns". That's more of a low blow that anything that Rocky wrote. To be quite honest, I had the same impression of your post that Rocky had. Also, to be quite honest, I disagree with about 90% of what you've posted so far. No need to get frustrated- that's just the way it is. It's certainly not personal; it's just a difference in our officiating philosophies.

Kids
 

I think the analogy with kids works here. I asked because you'd said specifically that putting the ball down is like spanking kids, they can both be avoided with clear communication.
My nearly 4 year old daughter speaks and understands English quite well. She also knows how to try to ignore me when I'm telling her something she doesn't like (coaches and players do this as well.) My ability to communicate with her isn't diminished by the fact that I occasionally have to pop her on the backside.
The difference is that I can follow up her spanking with more calm communication about why I did it (Juulie's example of the street is perfect here), but I can't do that with coaches when I put the ball down. It would defeat the purpose of putting it down if I spent 30 seconds explaining the rules to the coach.
I refuse to believe that a ref who is forced to put the ball down is some how at fault. I will say, however, that the threshold at which you can and should put it down is going to vary by region. I can't say I've even seen a violation or uncontested layup around here, although I've seen some teams have to hustle as the ball was put in play. We're pretty loose with it around here, and most teams break at or near (within a couple of seconds) of the 2nd horn.

Jurassic Ref
 

I have no problem with your differing opinion, and I certainly don't intend to say I'm a better official than anyone who officiates differently than me. Please note that. However, those who work against the players/coaches, those who are happy to have the spotlight on them, those with quick triggers, those who are happy to show everyone how smart they are, etc. Make it hard on the rest of us. I do some coaching in Baseball, I see officials who do this kind of stuff on the field and its frustrating. Let me put it this way, there are times when I can feel and understand why coaches don't appreciate/respect officials. There are some who ruin it for others. The putting the ball down on the floor conversation just set something off in me I wanted to see addressed.

Snaqwells
 

I still wish I hadn't used that metaphor, but ... oh, well. Here's the deal....How on God's green earth can any official be forced to put the ball down????? Get them out of the dang huddle....Communicate!!! Who in their right mind is going to say, no we're not coming out??? The only times I've ever seen this done, was during JV games where the officials were just trying to prove a point - its bogus. It makes us look bad, its not necessary - it negatively effects how people perceive us as officials. NOTHING POSITIVE COMES FROM IT. We don't need it. Its like when I started out officiating and all I did was look for 3 seconds, finally an experienced official said to me, "What good does that do for the game?? Talk to the players, get them to leave the lane." Sure has helped over the last 8 years, if I had said "Forget that guy." And not thought about the concept I wouldn't have improved as an official, but every goofy Dad in the crowd would have thought I was great - "Way to call the 3 seconds." Instead, I'll communicate - I'll stay positive and if players and coaches are willing to do the same it'll be all good.

I really enjoy discussing these thoughts with you folks who take it seriously, even if you disagree with me 90% of the time!!!!

Re: RockyRoad
 

You equated calling a T with losing control of the game, and then threw in the fact that you only called two all year... and you referred to other officials as "clowns"...but you're right, you never said you were better than any other officials...guess I should aim a little higher next time, huh???

Rocky Road
 

Please try hard not to be offended, that was not my intent. No calling a T does not necessarily mean you or anyone else has lost control of the game. "Clowns" was my catch phrase for officials who don't work as hard and do nearly as good a job as you or anyone else on this board!!! You, Rocky Road, are not a Clown!!!!

mnref14,
Also, the motives your imputing to these other officials you've interacted with seem like caricatures to me. Some officials, as they're learning and developing, will enforce more rules more strictly than others. To say they're doing it out of a power trip seems presumptuous at best.
The fact that some officials are more tightly bound to the rules than others does not make them ego-maniac type-A's. You may find your philosophy better, that's to be expected, but claiming their motives are impure isn't the way to get your point across or to address any lingering issues.

Re: Snaqwells
 

Communication requires that someone listen. No matter how hard you try, there are some that simply are not going to listen. Nothing you do can make them listen.

If they choose not to listen, then the ball goes down. I probably average putting it down less than once per year...but there are times it needs to be done.

Now the above I agree with completely. It's just another call. If it happens, it happens; it doesn't make you a better or a worse official if you have to use the procedure.

Uh, don't get carried away now. You might wanna re-think that statement. Rocky's all-time favorite hero happens to be Bozo the Clown. And he's a Mariner's fan.

Re: Snaqwells
 

Who said anything about someone in their right mind. The rule isn't there for coaches in their right mind. It's there for when the coach chooses to ignore us. It's there for a reason, not to be ignored.

Yeah, and your experience is all-inclusive?

It's not the thought that it shouldn't happen that puzzles me, it's your sweeping statement that any official who does it is somehow at fault.

No one here has advocated calling 3 seconds every time a kid stands there too long. But I doubt that you'll find someone around here who says any official who ever calls 3 seconds is not communicating enough with the players. There are situations where a kid isn't listening for whatever reason. Many officials will go seasons without calling it, and regret it when they are forced to call it. A kid plants himself in the lane, ignoring your repeated attempts to get him out, and he then gets a pass on about count 6 or 7. You're not calling that?
The same is true for putting the ball down. 99 % of the time we can avoid it easily. It's the one time the coach is so caught up in his kids that he doesn't hear us, or is so peaved at us he's going to prove his point.

You can't make the sweeping assumptions you're making.

BTW, I could see making the argument that we should call three seconds rather than talking to the kids. While I'm trying to get A32 out of the paint, and I'm focused on trying to communicate with him, B15 might just knock A20 on the floor and I missed it because I was discussing the philosophy of time with A32.


[Edited by Snaqwells on Mar 9th, 2004 at 05:18 PM]

Define "numerous?" By numerous do you mean two times, three times, four times? One person's numerous may be three time, another official's numerous may be six times. I hope that people are getting the picture that I am trying to paint. There is a protocol to follow, and if one follows the protocol, one will only have to put the ball on the floor just once and only once per game. Remember, putting the ball on the floor is the last resort and should be used sparingly, but when it is necessary do it.

Thanks Bob, for this post. I also apologize now for any horse manure that comes your way due to my endorsement of your post.

MTD, Sr.

Uh-oh...Bozo the Clown and Mariners all in one post...now you're gonna get this thread deleted, man...

mnref14,
It is not easy to talk to experts about what you think they do wrong, (but you don't), and not sound holier-than-thou.
Come to think of it, for you to know that everyone else was wrong, when you were not in their shoes, you may be.

SAM
 

I was mearly expressing an opinion of mine which is contrary to what many officials on here think; I realize I'm not going to convince those who have made up their minds on the subject to change their ways. Hopefully, through this little controversy we've had some lively debate and maybe some official will take a step back and think twice next time before they set a ball down. Or, maybe - just maybe - I'll start putting the ball down because I respect the opinions of those on this board!?!?! I promise I do not feel superior to anyone who doesn't agree with my opinions, and I apologize to anyone who has felt slighted.

Re: Re: Snaqwells
 

Or a more likely, A1 in the paint, 3,4,5 sec. B1, now getting impatient, pushes A1, beep, foul on B1.

This was a POE last year becaues of this foul.