I saw this play last Sunday in a women's college game and it brought up some interesting conversations during our pregame at my sub-state games this past weekend. It happened in a game between SW Mo. State, I'll call them A, and Indiana State, B.

Sitch-Player A drives towards the basket and towards B1, who is in very obvious legal guarding postion and ready to take a charge. A1 leaves her feet and is about to pick up a charging foul when, just before she creams B1, B2 hacks her hard on the arm. The bucket goes in. A1 continues on and rams into B1. What is the call? I'll let some discussion go, before I give their answer.

Common foul on B2, PC foul on A1, wipe the basket, A1 shoots 2 with players in the lane, resume from there as normal. No FTs for B even if in the bonus.

How'd I do?

That's what I have too.

Under ncaa men you count the basket and A1 gets 1 FT.

Option A) The hack caused the charge -- enforce that foul only (good basket, shoot 1 throw)

Option B) Both fouls are called. Wipe off the basket, A shoots two throws with no one on the line, B gets the ball at the end-line after the throws -- can run if the seond throw is good, spot throw-in if the second throw is not good.

Shooting foul one free throw.

Count the basket, shoot 1 FT. The girl was under the basket so can't have a PC coming from the front of the basket. Just guessing.

[Edited by Bart Tyson on Mar 8th, 2004 at 02:30 PM]

Only in NCAA Mens.

I don't understand what you are saying. I think at all levels, If the shooter gets fouled in the act, and the basket counts, we shot one.

It's the "airborne shooter" difference -- and it's unclear (at least to my reading) whether it would apply in the original situation (had it been a men's game).

Defender under the backboard only applies if the ballhandler is behind the backboard. If ballhandler is in front, there's no restriction on where the defender is standing. So, in this situation, I would agree with Jenkins' two options. Judge the hack first before calling the player control.

Not if we have a blarge ;)

This one very rarely gets called even when it appears to be very clear cut. A false double foul is a situation in which there are fouls by both teams, the second of which occurs before the clock is started following the first, and such that at least one of the attributes of a double foul is absent. (NFHS 4.19.8, NCAAW 4.26.12)

In this scenario, the clock stops when the offical blows the whistle for the first foul on B1. However, even though the clock is stopped, the ball is live. When A1 charges into B2, a foul has been committed before the clock is started following the first foul thus meeting the definition of a false double foul.

You wave off the basket due to the player control foul.

There is a foul on B1 with A1 shooting two free throws.

There is also a foul on A1 that is a player control foul.

In NFHS and NCAAW, clear the lane and shoot both free throws. Team B gets the throw-in along the base line with the freedom to move the base line.

What level is this from? In Women's, its from the front.

Gotta agree with Bart on this - NCAAW, can't take a charge directly under the basket unless the drive is parallel to the backboard - not sure what Welsch is talking about...

Chayce, good post but how is the foul on B1 when B1 is the defender that takes the charge? Also, how do you come up with two shots for A1 if you don't count the basket? I agree with the false double foul though. I don't have a rule book here so I'm all ears.

Tomegun,

I did not go back and re-read the original post to make sure I was using the same player numbers. You are correct. B2 was the player who did the fouling on A1 and B1 took the charge. Sorry for exchanging them in my reply.

You wave the shot off because A1 committed a player control foul! It's just like any other player control foul where the offending player's shot goes in. You wave it off.

I partially agree with this logic, but why clear the lane to shoot the free throws and then give the ball to B? I would think if you're going to shoot the free throws that players would be on the lane as in a normal sitch.

A couple of things for clarification:
-the defender was not even close to being under the basket, so that was not an option.
-the hack did not in any way shape or form cause the charge so that was off the table.

Here is what the officials in the sitch did (again NCAA-W):
Waved off the basket, called the hack on B1 and gave A1 two free throws with players on the lane. I do not believe they assessed A1 a foul for player control even though they evidently used this as reasoning to wipe the basket. (I am only 80% sure on the foul not being assessed to A1 because I was watching on TV and it might have been missed)

I think I am falling on the side of the false double foul, but I still don't follow the reasoning of clearing the lane. I think I would have a foul on B1 for hack, a PC foul on A1, no basket and two free throws with players on the lane.

If you're calling the false-double foul here, you penalize in the order they occurred. First, you have the shooting foul on B1. A gets two shots since the basket was waved off due to the ensuing PC foul. Second, you give B the ball because the PC foul happened afterward. A's punishment, aside from the increased foul count, is the loss of the opportunity to rebound.

Btw, Congratulations are in order for Bart Tyson, selected to work post season play in Region VI JuCo ball. Nice job.

I guess I could see that. That's not what these officials did, but, I have the feeling they were trying to find some middle ground that would only have both coaches somewhat mad instead of one coach totally off the hook.

I do believe that they missed the last part of the situation. If it was a technical (NCAAW), you would proceed from the point of interruption so maybe they were confused and thought that there should be people on the lane. They should have cleared the lane and given the ball to B after the two free throws because the player control foul occurred second.

Did the same official call both fouls? I have had this play happen several times but I have never called it that way. The first foul against the defender hacking the shooter will usually suffice both coaches. Trying to explain this situation to coaches is not worth it. Pick ONE and go with it!

Looks to me that they should have either counted the shot or charged A1 with a foul. Neither coach dares complain, but the refs got it wrong, it seems. Unless they did charge A1 with a foul and just administered the free throw wrong.

aw

No, it was a double whistle sitch. Trail and C got together, with neither giving the dreaded preliminary signal.

Would it make a difference if they were in the double bonus?

Only if she double dribbled. Unless, of course, we have a double violation on the free throw or throw in. Then, of course, the penalty is a double cheeseburger.

Bartender, I'll have a double.

Thats funny. :)

It would have been more funnier if I'd posted it twice. :)

Now, that wasn't AS funny. :D

Thanks

Airheadeness must be contagious. I went back and reread my posting. It was not what I meant to say. Had an airheaded student in my office when I typed that up. What I meant to say (and guess I might be wrong about this) is that legal guarding position is "forfeited" if the defender is standing under the basket and the post player is going up for the shot in between the defender and the backboard. If I'm not mistaken, I saw this called as a blocking foul once.

If we are talking Women's, it doesn't matter who the Off. player is when going to the hoop. The guard may start anywhere on the court and run right through the Def. if she is under the basket. Its a block or nothing. The only exception is a drive along the baseline.

Bart, where is the exception on driving the baseline in the rule book? I don't see it. Working a tournament this weekend that utilizes NCAA rules and want to be on top of things. Thanks.

I don't have my book with me. I'm not sure its a specific rule with an Art. #. But, it is in the book. I think its in the back under POE. Good luck.

It's in Appendix III, Section 12.b:

b. The defender is entitled to any spot on the playing court she
desires, provided that she gets to that spot first, without contact
with an opponent. A defender who establishes a position directly
under the cylinder or behind the backboard when a dribbler
becomes an airborne shooter is not in a legal guarding position,
regardless if she got to the spot first. If contact occurs, the official
must decide whether the contact is incidental or a foul has been
committed by the defender. Exception: When a dribbler takes a
path to the basket parallel with the end line, the defender’s position
directly under the basket is a legal guarding position and, if
contact occurs, the official must decide whether the contact is incidental
or a foul has been committed by the dribbler or airborne
shooter.

And, here's an AR that's the same as the original play:

A.R. 19. (Women) Airborne A1 is fouled by B1 during a try for a field goal. A1 releases
the ball then illegally contacts B2 in returning to the floor after the shot. The ball
goes through the basket. RULING: This shall be a false double foul. The foul by B1
did not cause the ball to become dead since A1 had started the trying motion.
However, airborne shooter A1’s foul shall be a player-control foul that causes the ball
to become dead immediately. No goal can be scored even when the ball goes through
the basket before the foul. Since the try is unsuccessful, A1 shall be awarded two free
throws for the foul by B1. No players shall be allowed in lane spaces since Team B
shall be awarded the ball after the last free throw. When the last free throw is successful,
the throw-in shall be from anywhere along the end line. When the last free
throw is unsuccessful, the throw-in shall be from a designated spot, in this case, the
end line.