1st Round of the Boys Sectionals

106-97 in 4 Overtimes!!!

Just un-frickin'-believable!

Shot after pressure shot hit!

End of the 3rd OT, home team is down 3 with 9 seconds left. They inbound the ball, get it to halfcourt and burn a TO with 6 seconds left. Inbounds play, kid throws up a prayer from the corner and swishes the net to tie the game at 87 and force a 4th OT.

Finally, visitors make their FTs in the 4th and we finish 2 hours and 15 minutes after we tipped off.

What a game!

PS - And some of these knucklehead coaches think we do this for the $$$. :(

This is what it is all about!
 

You can feel the adrenelin of this game from your post.

Had to be an AWESOME experience to be a part of!...

Thanks for sharing!

Sounds like a great game! But what did you have to do with it that made it such a memorable game? Did you hit those big shots? Did you design those plays the coaches drew up under pressure? Will you be remembered and talked about in the paper today for your officiating? The answer to all of these is no. If as officials you feel the best job you do is when no one notices you there, then that should be your goal. Because when the games are all done, people will remember the players, the games, and the coaches but the officials will not be remembered. I'm not trying to sound rude, but that is the way it is. I've seen in many papers across this nation all state teams, coaches of the years, but have yet to see awards given to officials in a major newspaper. But hey congrats on watching a great game played well by players and coached well by coaches:)

Yo, moderators. Isn't it time to get rid of this troll? He adds zip to this forum.

If the referees just "watched" the game, it certainly would have been memorable, dismally memorable. They aren't there to be noticed and get their name in the paper the next day (sounds like some coaches' motivation). They are there to enforce rules so that no team gains an unfair advantage, to insure safety and sportsmanship, and to administer the game so it can be played fairly and coached in a civil manner.

The icing on the cake (especially for a ref) is actually ENJOYING this, and a close, exciting game like this one is a game to remember. Like it or not, BBallCoach, you NEED us refs so you players and coaches can make the headlines in the morning's Local Gazette.

Sounds great Tony! It is a rush to be out there for something like that and I'm sure you did a great job. Also a big WOW to the winning team's 19 points in the 4th 4-minute OT. I'm assuming a lot of those were from free throws late. Still that's high number in only 4 minutes.

Hey BBallCoach
 

I'm a coach and I come to this board to get meaningful information and insights. After several posts from you, I'm still waiting for a shred of meaningful information or insight you might provide. To date, your posts have been nothing more than rhetorically charged insults thinly veiled in a series of alleged questions in your supposed search for knowledge.

They say you can judge a man's intelligence by the questions he asks. So far, I'm not impressed. This is narcissism at its worst.

After relooking at my remarks, they do seem a bit harsh I must admit. The goal of my post was not to be rude or insulting to any official it was just to make a simple point. Great games have great players, coaches and fans. That is what the game of basketball is all about the fans and the players. They are the ones that will remember the moments for years to come and will be recognized for their achievements. I will be the first one to admit that most great games come from great players not great coaches:) Hopefully this clears up my remarks. Hope you all have a great day:)

State Final Coach??
 

It just shows you have never won a State Title. Because if the officials ever did the game good or bad, the officials are remembered by the coaches and officials across the state. They are in my state. Because it adds credibility to those officials that they have earned that opportunity. And yes, those that are in the playoffs also get a certain level of respect. Because when a respected official is working their games, the respect that they give you is quite different.

The thing you really have no clue about, is that officials like to work good games. Tony is not telling us this story to be remembered, he is telling us this story because the game was fun and the fact that it was a playoff game raises his excitement. Not all of us get playoff assignments and these games have a another level of excitement added to them. Someone goes home and someone moves on. That in itself is an added responsiblity. And usually these games can be intense and exciting. But I can tell you have not done much as a coach, because that would be obvious to you.

Peace

Sounds like poor officiating to me....since we all know that overtime is NEVER allowed! ;)

Somebody needs to get rid of this a$$hole.
 

What are you babbling about?

Is my post not a credit to the players and coaches who participated in the game?

Did I make any remarks about any of the calls I made in the game?

Where did I say that I wanted to be remembered?

Where did I say that I made it memorable?

Where did I say that I wanted to be read about in the paper?

BTW, I didn't watch the game. I officiated. And I enjoyed doing that. That's all I need. I don't need to be remembered, I don't try to make the game memorable and I have no desire to be read about in the paper.

Whether you like it or not, you left out an important part of the equation, the officials. If the officials don't also do a great job, you WILL NOT have a great game. That doesn't mean we have to be noticed, remembered, or acknowledged. Although SOME coaches have to have this recognition, MOST officials do not.

BTW, thanks to PGCougar for posting a REAL coach's point of view.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 25th, 2004 at 02:04 PM]

Re: State Final Coach??
 

Very true. During a FT in the 3rd OT, the visiting coach asks me, "Isn't this great? Have you ever been in a 3 OT game? I haven't." I said "Yes, but never when someone was going home when it was ever." Just two people, enjoying the moment, each knowing that it was something that he would never forget. Of course, neither of us knew that another OT lay ahead.

Hey Big Whistle, I'm proud to say that the 3 of us never stoipped officiating. Each team had numerous opportunities to win the game at the line with seconds remaining, until the visitors finally did. We DID NOT swallow our whistles.

Right call
 

<b><i> I second the motion. What do we have to do to get it passed? Everything this person submits is inflammatory. Then, it tries to sugarcoat everything with half-a$$ apologies. Cmon, do us all a favor-do this.</b></i>http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...smiley-105.gif

Quote

originally posted by bigwhistle

Sounds like poor officiating to me....since we all know that overtime is NEVER allowed!

Check out this game, SIX Overtimes

You can find it on our web site:

http://www.board41.org/otgame.htm

The longer he talks, the farther his foot goes down his throat. I can't really figure out how to get rid of someone -- I think that only the owner can do that.

Why did my 2 replies on this thread get deleted?? BBallCoach says anything he wants but MY replies get deleted ???? Go figure...

When I was coaching, if we were up by 3 with less than 10 sec to go, I'd have my kids foul. Therefore, there was no miracle shot. In order to tie the game the opponent would have to : (1) make 1 FT, (2) miss the 2nd, (3)get the rebound which now is harder to do since they can't move until the rim is hit and only 2 Offensive players are allowed in the lane, (4)put in a shot. Compare that with the "Hail Mary" shots that we see go in more frequently. Actually, there aren't that many miracle shots. Most times they get a good "look" at the basket.

Consequently, we never had a game get tied by employing this strategy. And, with less than 10 seconds left, we never have to get the ball over the timeline once we inbound it or rebound it. I've seen major colleges lose games by not using this strategy. And some of them have been in the NCAA's where the school loses lots of money by not moving on to the next round.

I always wondered why more coaches don't do this.

Re: Somebody needs to get rid of this a$$hole.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BBallCoach

Quote:

Great games have great players, coaches and fans.

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef Whether you like it or not, you left out an important part of the equation, the officials. If the officials don't also do a great job, you WILL NOT have a great game. That doesn't mean we have to be noticed, remembered, or acknowledged. Although SOME coaches have to have this recognition, MOST officials do not. BTW, thanks to PGCougar for posting a REAL coach's point of view.

Good on you, Tony. You and PGCougar arre dead-on right. You can't have a great game if the officials aren't also great. The game will lack flow and will be remembered by all as an ugly game if the officiating is poor.

I can't think of a single great game we have played in which the officiating was poor. We have had some memorable close gaems that were also pretty ugly in many respects. Even close games, when poorly officiated, are not the ones you remember as great games. they may be great wins because you overcome the ugly game and succeed, but the game itself is not one to remember for all time.

I'm with you, but my cutoff was less than 10 seconds. I saw an ACC team lose in regulation last season doing this with 14 seconds left. (UVa and Ga Tech, I think.)

I'd have to be at :05 or less to do this, and even then, I was worried that'd be the one time someone actually called an "intentional" foul intentional, and we'd end up losing on a pair of made FTs and a two-pointer after they got the ball back.

One time when we tried it, we only had five team fouls with :08 left. So I wanted to give two of them, figuring by the second one it'd be the final seconds. We got #6 with :05 left. Then, one of my players was late committing #7 and got it in the act of shooting a three with :01 left, the shot darn near went in (in-and-out), and the girl hit all three to force OT. Luckily we pulled it out in OT.

Oh, and I completely disagree (and could back it up with stats) that it is harder for the offense to rebound missed FTs now. It is far easier, because the defense can't box out, and the players below the blocks are at a poor angle to rebound a shot from the FT line.

I agree entirely. Offensive rebounds are much easier. Moving the players back to sports 2, 3, and 4 like the NCAAW would return the advantage that used to exist when players could leave on the release.

I lost a game last year on a foul at the end, a make, a miss and a put back - with the FTs coming with two seconds to go. We called TO before the last free throw and discussed nothing but blocking out, and what to do with ball in hand, possession arow our way, and two seconds on the clock. With two players on shooter, she still got through and sunk the game winner, time running out just as ball went through the net. So I am one that likes to play them out and let things fall as they may.

If you have nailed threes on me all day, I might change my opinion.

And I share the opinion that waiting for rim in the low blocks makes it easier for the defense to get a shot at the ball. Release lets you get good position for the rebound.

Sports 2, 3, and 4 would be what.... rugby, volleyball and swimming?! :p

I see this claim over and over but I just don't see it in the games. WHile it's not a guarantee, the defense gets an overwhelming majority of the rebounds on FTs.

You say the defense has no time to box out. However, the offense also does not have time to get around the defense.

Again, I simply don't see what you're claiming in my games.

If the offense gets more than about 5% of missed FT rebounds, it's too many. The number is more than it used to be. And where the ball ends up has more to do with the shot than with any rebounding technique. I'd like to see some hard stats, though.

The stats I had heard before this most recent change was that about 82% went to the defense. The change to leave the top spaces empty was to increase that number...to what level, I don't know.

Standard rebounds are much more even probably no more skewed than 60/40...maybe 70/30. Why should the defense get over 95% on a FT miss? If that is to be the case, why don't we just award the ball to the defense automatically.

What is the reason for FT to begin with. On a shot, in addition to penalizing the foul, it is to replace the opportunity to score.

Consider some numbers. Team field goal percentages are often 30-40% and team free throw percentages are probably 60-75%. Using 70%, the odds of missing both is about 9%; making both, 49%; making 1 and missing one, 42%. Using 60%, the numbers go to 16%, 36%, and 48%.

Taking just the latter option, there will be a rebound to be had in only 40% of the FT pairs (16 + 36/2 since the single miss may be the first of the two). There will be an average of

Where am I going with all this? I don't really know but I'm having a good time thinking about it. I might even end up changing my stance. ;)

So, the 70% FT team will average 1.2 points per trip to the line. If you essentially guarantee the defensive possesion after the FTs, that results in an average possession score of 1.2 points.

However, if you look at the value of the 40% FG results, they get 0.8 points per attempt. Assuming a 50% offensive rebounding rate, they'll end up with a score about 52% of the possessions worth 1.04 points.

Of course, these number change with every team and style of play. A team with a great center that is the focal point of the entire offense will have a much high FG percentage and will have more rebounds but will have a lower FT percentage.

I'm not sure what conclusion I want to draw, if any, from my analysis but after giving it some thought, there's no way I'm going to not post it. :)

Conclude what you will from it.

As I said, the opponent needs 4 things to go right when you foul, as opposed to only one when you don't: making a three-pointer. (Actually, it's 5 things if you consider that they must hit the rim AND get the rebound.) If your players give up the offensive rebound AND the made shot, that's their fault, then you don't deserve to win. You have more control of rebounding than you do the shooting skill or luck of your opponent.

As for offensive rebounds on a FT, back when players could leave at the release, we gave the eventual state champion their only loss of the season by rebounding 3 of our missed FT's and scoring twice (4 pts). We won by three. We ran the 'loop' with our 2nd player on the lane while the first one took the D to the inside of the lane. Can't do that now when you only have 2 players on the lane. They don't even allow you to occupy the 4th spot anymore.

If 4 players can't get a rebound against 2 when they have inside position AND they have to wait for the ball to hit the rim, you need to evaluate your footwork and positioning.

I think the rule changes have almost completely taken away the strategy of the offensive FT rebound. When you could leave at the release, the defense had to maintain position (contact) a lot longer while waiting for the ball to hit the rim and come off.

The rules did not change with respect to release or rim - just with respect to the numbers on the lane, which clearly now favor the defense. Also, you are correct that going on release allows the offense a bit of a chance for using a set of moves to get off the defender, and the offense can adjust to the defender as the game goes along.

What I think that going on rim does is add an element of luck, because there is no time for either team to set up properly for the rebound. Going on rim a matter of getting there quickest and getting lucky if the ball comes to you. The luck clearly favors the defense, and I would say that 80-90% is maybe the right number based on what I have seen - it is certainly not 95%. The rule would favor the defense even more if you stepped up one position on the lane and left the low blocks empty.