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wildcatman Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:34pm

I am a University of Arizona Alum, and a big fan of college basketball, especially PAC-10 basketball. I am not a fan, however, of PAC-10 officiating. I realize that this may be an old topic on this forum, but the officiating needs to improve. The PAC-10 has more bad or missed calls than any other conference, and here is a news article about a few:

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/wildcats/9469.php

In a close game like the Arizona at Stanford game, bad officiating can drastically affect the outcome. Even though Arizona could have played better in the first half, I truly believe that better calls would have resulted in Arizona winning that game. And by better calls I don't mean biased towards Arizona, I mean better as in accurate, fair, and correct calls.

Last night was another example. The officiating at the Arizona at Oregon game was poor, and the most glaring mistake was the foul called on Hassan Adams on a clean block he had. Adams was three feet away from Luke Jackson, Jackson was planted, and the ball was swatted cleanly away. If I performed at my job like some of the PAC 10 officials do at theirs, I would be fired. There must be some way to improve the quality and consistency of the officiating, and I'm hoping someone here has some ideas.





bob jenkins Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:45pm

Quote:

Originally posted by wildcatman
I am a University of Arizona Alum, and a big fan of college basketball, especially PAC-10 basketball. I am not a fan, however, of PAC-10 officiating. I realize that this may be an old topic on this forum, but the officiating needs to improve. The PAC-10 has more bad or missed calls than any other conference, and here is a news article about a few:

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/wildcats/9469.php

In a close game like the Arizona at Stanford game, bad officiating can drastically affect the outcome. Even though Arizona could have played better in the first half, I truly believe that better calls would have resulted in Arizona winning that game. And by better calls I don't mean biased towards Arizona, I mean better as in accurate, fair, and correct calls.

Last night was another example. The officiating at the Arizona at Oregon game was poor, and the most glaring mistake was the foul called on Hassan Adams on a clean block he had. Adams was three feet away from Luke Jackson, Jackson was planted, and the ball was swatted cleanly away. If I performed at my job like some of the PAC 10 officials do at theirs, I would be fired. There must be some way to improve the quality and consistency of the officiating, and I'm hoping someone here has some ideas.





Yes, it's been discussed.

No, we can't do anything about it (assuming there's anything to do something about).

If the conference wants to change, it will.

Most of the officials work other conferences -- it seems unlikely that they'd do a good job in other games and a bad job in Pac-10 games.




blindzebra Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:52pm

Fan is short for fanatic,you are an Arizona alum,so you are biased about calls.Had you said that the officiating was bad in your favor against Oregon,you would have some credibility,but you came out with a bad call against your Wildcats.

Officials will miss calls,we are human.In big-time D1 you are dealing with VERY big and athletic players,so it makes it even more difficult to see everything from start to finish,thus you will get bad calls/no calls.

Try watching a game where you have no emotional ties to the outcome,from another conference,and I bet you will see
that calls will be very similar to those you see in the Pac 10.You will probably even see several of the Pac 10
officials working these games as well,a lot of these guys work games in several conferences.

wildcatman Fri Feb 20, 2004 01:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
Fan is short for fanatic,you are an Arizona alum,so you are biased about calls.
Try watching a game where you have no emotional ties to the outcome

Yes, I am a fan, but I am not a fanatic. I think the constructive way I'm bringing this up establishes my capabilty of rational thought, UNLIKE a fanatic. There seems to be this feeling of "necessary evil" with PAC 10 officiating, a feeling of "yeah, it sucks, but there's nothing we can do about it." And I watch as many games from other conferences as I can, because I think college basketball is one of the greatest sports in the world. The calls seem to be much more accurate, and there seem to be LESS of them, in conferences to the east. The PAC 10 is infamous for "ticky-tack" fouls, where other major conferences let the players play more, instead of dictating the speed and outcome of the game with questionable calls.

BktBallRef Fri Feb 20, 2004 01:20pm

Quote:

Originally posted by wildcatman
The PAC 10 is infamous for "ticky-tack" fouls, where other major conferences let the players play more, instead of dictating the speed and outcome of the game with questionable calls.
This statement just goes to show that you have no understanding of what you're talking about. The officials who officiate in the PAC-1o are the same officials who officiate in the Mountain West Conference, the Western Athletic Conference, and the Big Sky Conference.

Fans in the ACC and SEC complain about the same things that you describe. Let's face it, you're more objective when you watch other teams and other conferences, simply because you're a fanati..., I mean, fan. :)

JRutledge Fri Feb 20, 2004 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by wildcatman
The PAC 10 is infamous for "ticky-tack" fouls, where other major conferences let the players play more, instead of dictating the speed and outcome of the game with questionable calls.
What "ticky-tack" fouls were you mad about? Because any contact that affects what a player is trying to do, despite the severity of the contact should be called a foul.

What everyone said is basically right on. But these officials are evaluated by every call, every play and have to explain in detail what they saw and why they made calls or did not make calls. Even those games you do not see on TV, the same things apply. And if they are doing a bad job, there are about 200 people that will take that person's place in the conference. But as stated, officials at that level work several conferences and had to work other conferences and have some time of success before getting hired at a major conference like the Pac-10.

Oh well, I guess you are just another fanati.... :D

Peace

wildcatman Fri Feb 20, 2004 02:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
This statement just goes to show that you have no understanding of what you're talking about. The officials who officiate in the PAC-1o are the same officials who officiate in the Mountain West Conference, the Western Athletic Conference, and the Big Sky Conference.

Fans in the ACC and SEC complain about the same things that you describe. Let's face it, you're more objective when you watch other teams and other conferences, simply because you're a fanati..., I mean, fan. :) [/B]
I'll be the first one to admit my knowledge of the intricacies of officiating is non-existant. I know bad officiating when I see it though. I'm not talking about officiating that is tough, close, and could go either way, which I realize is most of the calls in D1. I'm talking about calls that are horribly late, missed, or wrong. Maybe other conferences are like this too, but it seems to me that for as long as I have been a college basketball fan, the PAC 10 has had some poor officiating. I know that the same officials work other conferences, but where am I going to see a MWC, WAC, or Big Sky game on TV?

I did some quick research, and I looked up free-throw attempts in the PAC-10, ACC, and SEC. This should have SOME SMALL correlation to the number of fouls called. These numbers represent conference schedule numbers, as of today.

ACC FTA: 4863
PAC 10 FTA: 4933
SEC FTA: 5751

I know I'm biased, but I honestly just want fair officiating that doesn't affect the game. Anyone who saw the Arizona at Stanford game knows how much the officials changed the outcome.

EDIT: The numbers I posted above lend no support to my statement that the PAC 10 has more fouls called than other conferences. I wouldn't have put it there if I did not realize this. Plus, I realize that any conclusion that can be made from these numbers is questionable. I posted those numbers because I thought they were interesting.

[Edited by wildcatman on Feb 20th, 2004 at 01:46 PM]

icallfouls Fri Feb 20, 2004 02:18pm

Pac 10
 
There is another way to look at all of this.

There is definitely a different style of play once you get to the Rockies. In the east, much like the NBA, there is alot pack it and dump the ball into the post. Hence it appears that the officials 'let them play.' Very few teams get out and run the floor on a game to game basis.

In the west, again like the NBA, the style is to get up and down the floor with athletic guard and forward play. Think about it, can you name a post player out west? These teams get out and run more often than not (ie, AZ 100, UO 87).

Most officials recognize the strengths of the teams playing on a given night and allow the teams to compete accordingly.

Anyway, the games are called differently, which has been the case for YEARS. Since you are a 'cat fan, imagine how Lute would react to Stoudamire getting 'handled' all over the floor.

Additionally, we work for the conferences (meant coaches), and they talk with our assignors about how games are to be called or what needs the most attention. That is how most Points of Emphasis are arrived at. Each month the assignors hold a conference call with the NCAA to discuss concerns during the season and then further adjustments are implimented.

I have rambled enough, but hopefully the point is understood.

TriggerMN Fri Feb 20, 2004 02:26pm

First you say you're willing to admit you don't know much about officiating, but then you say you know bad officiating when you see it. Yeah, that makes alot of sense.

You have a problem with the officiating, sign up. Those of us in this forum will be more than happy to come watch you officiate a junior high game and berate you.

How about some credit for the crew last night for being thick skinned as all of the idiot fans consistently yelled "BS" and "Hey ref F U!"

Also, how come you aren't complaining about the fact that Salim Stoudamire didn't get T'd up for all the taunting he was doing last night? Oh that's right, you're a fan, and not an official.

The only reason you complain is because officials can't complain back. Think about how the world would be, and how stupid you would look, if the officials had the right to scream at stupid fans about all the rules they don't understand. If you want to see the problem, look in the mirror.

Dan_ref Fri Feb 20, 2004 02:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by wildcatman


I'll be the first one to admit my knowledge of the intricacies of officiating is non-existant. I know bad officiating when I see it though.



I'm sorry wildcat but these 2 sentences are not consistent in any possible way, shape or form. What you have is a woefully uninformed opinion, which of course you are entitled to.

Quote:


I did some quick research, and I looked up free-throw attempts in the PAC-10, ACC, and SEC. This should have some small correlation to the number of fouls called. These numbers represent conference schedule numbers, as of today.

ACC FTA: 4863
PAC 10 FTA: 4933
SEC FTA: 5751

I know I'm biased, but I honestly just want fair officiating that doesn't affect the game. Anyone who saw the Arizona at Stanford game knows how much the officials changed the outcome.

Soo...your claim that the pac-10 has more fouls than any other league is disproven by your own stats. BTW by requirement the officials affect *every* game, you just don't realize it. BTW2 in many instances fouls occuring at the end of the game - so-called strategic fouls - tend to skew the overall foul count, depending on how close the game is and how stubborn the losing coach is. For your stats to reflect the reality you are attempting to portray you'll need to filter out the strategic fouls.

Anyway....what's your point again?


Rick Vietti Fri Feb 20, 2004 02:33pm

If we are going to look at officiating in a statistical frame, then basing a conferences type of officiating on a total foul count is not sound stats.

Quantity has no correlation on performance. I have had blow out games where we call for example 20 fouls for the whole game for both teams. A tight game may have 10 fouls called in the last minute of play against one team, do to the fact that the team that is behind is trying to get the ball back.

Not a good measurement tool looking at quantity only!

If you are going to measure officiating calls throughout a game, a better method would be charting every call.

I believe charting over the course of a season would be a better measuring tool and could provide objective data.

Random feelings from one game or even several games do not stand up to objective analysis.

wildcatman Fri Feb 20, 2004 02:37pm

Re: Pac 10
 
Quote:

Originally posted by icallfouls

Additionally, we work for the conferences (meant coaches), and they talk with our assignors about how games are to be called or what needs the most attention. That is how most Points of Emphasis are arrived at. Each month the assignors hold a conference call with the NCAA to discuss concerns during the season and then further adjustments are implemented.

I have rambled enough, but hopefully the point is understood.

Your post was very constructive and educational, thanks. And you're right about the different styles of play and the subsequent different ways the games are called. I recently learned that the teams cut up tape from their games and send the calls they have concerns about to the PAC 10, I'm guessing to Lou Campanelli's office. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Even with these regulatory practices in place, there doesn't seem to be much of a change. Here's an example illustrating the history of poor officiating in the PAC 10. A bad call or two is one thing, but consistently affecting the outcome of games is another. This is from an article in the Daily Wildcat, from March 1st, 1995.

"Some other instances of blown calls this year include a basket credited to UCLA's Ed O'Bannon at the end of the first half against the UA at Pauley Pavilion. The basket appeared to go in before the buzzer, but after the red light that signifies the end of the half came on. The officials may have been distracted by the glowing light and not concerned with whether or not the ball went in on time.

The basket was consequently allowed and the UA lost the game by two points."

Honestly, I just want things to get better. I understand that officials have one of the hardest jobs in the world, but I think we need some replacements in the PAC 10.



Dan_ref Fri Feb 20, 2004 02:43pm

Re: Re: Pac 10
 
Quote:

Originally posted by wildcatman

... This is from an article in the Daily Wildcat, from March 1st, 1995.

"Some other instances of blown calls this year include a basket credited to UCLA's Ed O'Bannon at the end of the first half against the UA at Pauley Pavilion. The basket appeared to go in before the buzzer, but after the red light that signifies the end of the half came on. The officials may have been distracted by the glowing light and not concerned with whether or not the ball went in on time.

The basket was consequently allowed and the UA lost the game by two points."

Yeah, you're a troll...thanks for the laugh

rockyroad Fri Feb 20, 2004 02:57pm

Re: Re: Pac 10
 
Quote:

Originally posted by wildcatman
[
"Some other instances of blown calls this year include a basket credited to UCLA's Ed O'Bannon at the end of the first half against the UA at Pauley Pavilion. The basket appeared to go in before the buzzer, but after the red light that signifies the end of the half came on. The officials may have been distracted by the glowing light and not concerned with whether or not the ball went in on time.

The basket was consequently allowed and the UA lost the game by two points."

Honestly, I just want things to get better. I understand that officials have one of the hardest jobs in the world, but I think we need some replacements in the PAC 10.



And why is that a blown call??? It makes no difference when the ball goes in - only that the shot had left the player's hands before the red light came on...see, that's the problem here. You say these are bad calls, and those are bad calls, but you don't know what the rules are any better than our buddies Dick Vitale, Enberg, Rafftery, and the other commentators you get your info from...the Pac-10 hires some of the best officials in the country, and you come here complaining about them??? That makes a lot of sense...

wildcatman Fri Feb 20, 2004 03:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TriggerMN
First you say you're willing to admit you don't know much about officiating, but then you say you know bad officiating when you see it. Yeah, that makes alot of sense.
Let me explain this in simpler terms for you. I may not know how to make a cake, but I can definitely tell you when a cake is good or bad. When everyone around me is feeling the same way, including the media, then I know something is wrong with the officiating:

Here's proof, again, please read: http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/wildcats/9469.php

Quote:

Originally posted by TriggerMN
You have a problem with the officiating, sign up. Those of us in this forum will be more than happy to come watch you officiate a junior high game and berate you.
I know officiating is tough, but I feel like it should improve with time (Dave Libbey has been doing this for over 30 years). I haven't seen any improvement.

Quote:

Originally posted by TriggerMN
How about some credit for the crew last night for being thick skinned as all of the idiot fans consistently yelled "BS" and "Hey ref F U!"
It's not their job to be thick-skinned. It's their job to be observant and fair. I think their performance was questionable. There is another thread about their performance last night, regarding an over-and-back call.


Quote:

Originally posted by TriggerMN
The only reason you complain is because officials can't complain back. Think about how the world would be, and how stupid you would look, if the officials had the right to scream at stupid fans about all the rules they don't understand. If you want to see the problem, look in the mirror.
I will refrain from personally attacking you, and instead focus on the topic- poor officiating. I wanted to find something to do about it, something CONSTRUCTIVE, and I wound up here. When an official really does screw up, he may get suspended by his conference, but what compensation does the team get for the poor call? What if the poor call cost them a game, and affects their seeding or chances to go to their conference tourney? Even though there appears to be avenues of improvement, nothing changes. I want officials to work together more, to not be afraid to point out a bad call and reverse it. With three guys on the floor, I'm really surprised about some of the calls that are made in the PAC 10. And judging by the media's reaction, everyone else is too.



[Edited by wildcatman on Feb 20th, 2004 at 02:13 PM]

icallfouls Fri Feb 20, 2004 03:10pm

UA Alum Wildcatman
 
I don't believe that we are going to see eye to eye on this discussion, nor do I believe that you are concerned about officiating in general, so let's call it what it is. You have a vested interest in who wins and loses. I have no problem with that.

The specific calls you are referring to have all gone against your beloved 'cats, and one happened nearly 10 years ago! Not only that, you reference an article from the campus daily paper, whose purpose is to validate the fans of UA. I would bet a PAC 10 game fee, better yet, dinner out for you and your significant other, that the UCLA daily paper had nothing to say about the call in question.

It all comes down to this, and officials know it. Every time we blow our whistle, 50% of fans will like the call, while the other 50% will, well, cry foul.

With all that said, if your intent is to see things done better, I have plenty of gear I will donate to your ref'ing career. BTW, you probably won't be allowed to work any UA games since you are an alum.

BTW2, tell Chris Rodgers that I'd still 'T' him if he taunted that player again. Actually, he's a good kid.


Dan_ref Fri Feb 20, 2004 03:14pm

Quote:

Originally posted by wildcatman


Let me explain this in simpler terms for you. I may not know how to make a cake, but I can definitely tell you when a cake is good or bad.

Of course, you don't know WHY the cake is bad, whether it's not enough sugar or too much flour, or maybe the milk you're drinking is what is actually bad or maybe even what you're tasting is exactly what the baker intended but you just don't happen to like chocolate. Simply because you are ignorant on the topic.

(You're still a troll BTW, and not even a particularly good one I might add)

wildcatman Fri Feb 20, 2004 03:29pm

Re: UA Alum Wildcatman
 
Quote:

Originally posted by icallfouls
I don't believe that we are going to see eye to eye on this discussion, nor do I believe that you are concerned about officiating in general, so let's call it what it is. You have a vested interest in who wins and loses. I have no problem with that.
Thanks for your mature reply. I do have a vested interest in who wins and loses, and I am definitely biased towards the Wildcats, but I have seen some officiating in this conference that is beyond explanation. I don't want every call to go the Cats way- I want fair, timely, correct calls. I know this is a lot to ask for, but I think there is room for improvement in the PAC 10.

Quote:

Originally posted by icallfouls
The specific calls you are referring to have all gone against your beloved 'cats, and one happened nearly 10 years ago! Not only that, you reference an article from the campus daily paper, whose purpose is to validate the fans of UA. I would bet a PAC 10 game fee, better yet, dinner out for you and your significant other, that the UCLA daily paper had nothing to say about the call in question.
The call from '95 was posted to establish some history of poor officiating in the PAC 10. If I could post an article from a neutral media source I would, but everyone brings their own subjectivity to the table. What confuses me is this- I know refs have tough jobs, and I know they have to be smart and prove themselves to ref at the D1 level. Some of these calls must be talked about by other officials, some of these bad/missed/late calls must be at least hushed about between officials. When a player misses a defensive assignment or a layup, a teammate will tell him, "don't forget to switch next time," or, "go for the dunk instead." Do officials talk after the game, and say, "you know, that travelling call on Mustafa Shakur in the Stanford game was wrong, and it cost Arizona two points. Then, we called goal tending on Hassan Adams that was clearly wrong, and that put 2 on the board for Stanford. That was a close game already, and we may have not done a very good job officiating that game."

Quote:

Originally posted by icallfouls
With all that said, if your intent is to see things done better, I have plenty of gear I will donate to your ref'ing career. BTW, you probably won't be allowed to work any UA games since you are an alum.
If I decide to be a ref, I'll hold you to that. Hopefully I can find some other constructive, mature avenue in which to explore change, if not cause it.

wildcatman Fri Feb 20, 2004 04:33pm

This is what I'm talking about- there is a problem in the PAC 10, but nothing is being done about it. Henry Bibby, head coach for USC, was quoted in the Charleston Post & Courier:

Bibby has decided to stop talking about the officiating.

"I'm done with that," he said Monday. "It basically falls on deaf ears and I'm done. I'm moving on. The pieces fall where they may."

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.charleston.net/stories/01...ss046529.shtml

For those questioning the validity of my previous statements, please note this is a non-Wildcat related topic from a non-Wildcat related publication.


Adam Fri Feb 20, 2004 04:38pm

Wildcat,
Big Ten fans think the Big Ten has the worst officiating. Big Twelve fans think the Big 12 has the worst officiating. It's no surprise to me to see that the Pac-10 fans think the same way about their own refs. The point is that you are going to always notice more "bad" calls when they go against your team.

Finally, your snippet about OBannon is either poorly written or reflects a very bad understanding of the rules on the part of the author. The ball does not need to go in before time expires, it needs only be release. So, your "bad call" needs either clarified or replaced to keep your point alive.

Your Quixotic quest to improve college officiating is humorous. Watch out for the windmills.

Adam Fri Feb 20, 2004 04:43pm

There's nothing objective in the Bibby comments. A losing coach thinks he got screwed by the refs. Not exactly something Pac10 coaches have a patent on. Most coaches don't understand officiating any better than you do, and when they blame the refs for losing, they pretty much show their colors. Looks like Bibby is a chronic whiner in this regard, sort of like that women's coach from Connecticut.

ChuckElias Fri Feb 20, 2004 04:44pm

Yawn. Why did anybody try to respond seriously to this thread? :confused:

Adam Fri Feb 20, 2004 04:45pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Yawn. Why did anybody try to respond seriously to this thread? :confused:
Boredom

williebfree Fri Feb 20, 2004 04:55pm

I agree with icallfouls
 
icallfouls's posting is darn near verbatim of my sentiments as I read through the lengthy list of responses.

wildcatman

I do not want this to seem like a personal attack, because I do not believe in that method of getting a point across. I prefer that you view my following observation as CONSTRUCTIVE criticism:

Unless you have worn the stripes and whistle, invested hours of rules study, and spent your money to participate in officiating clinics, it is extremely difficult to feel that you can make anything but a subjective (uninformed) assessment of PAC-10 officiating. Are you willing to subject yourself to the same rigorous demand to be considered a candidate as a PAC-10 official before you pass judgement on the officials’ performance, good or bad?

If you are relying on the media (TV, radio, print, et al) as a resource to support your position, most of us will tell you that is a faulted approach because they demonstrate the same uninformed basis in making their assessments of officiating.

To be honest with you, I do not feel qualified to publicly pass judgement on the PAC-10 officials. Additionally, I chose to honor the decorum of respect that should be demonstrated for all officials who have been assigned to work the game, by people in positions of responsibility to do so.


MY final observation: Officials enter the court with the attitude that they want the game played within the rules. Their responsibility is to ensure that it is played that way. Officials do not care who wins the game.

wildcatman Fri Feb 20, 2004 05:06pm

Listen guys, I've seen plenty of threads in here about mistakes, or what to do about a questionable call, so you know that there is some validity to my comments. I know that I am one of many who are frustrated with officiating, and I'm trying to present this in a constructive fashion, unlike some of the replies in this thread by "senior" members of this forum. I just want to know why there aren't any changes, or why more isn't done to atone for bad officiating. I posted the Bibby comment because the checks on officiating seem toothless- Bibby (and all the other coaches and players) can't say anything about the officials or the officiating. If I get bad service at a restaurant, I can do something about it. Lute Olson can lose a game at Stanford because of poor performing officials, but he can't do anything but tell his players to play harder and score more points so officials won't have as much as an affect.

Adam Fri Feb 20, 2004 05:09pm

If it makes you feel better, officials do get evaluated and reprimanded when necessary. You just don't hear about it. I think the reasons for that are obvious.

Jurassic Referee Fri Feb 20, 2004 05:13pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Yawn. Why did anybody try to respond seriously to this thread? :confused:

Yeah, like anybody's gonna change fanboy's mind. Waste of time.

Adam Fri Feb 20, 2004 05:15pm

I need all the exercise I can get, even if it's an exercise in futility.

wildcatman Fri Feb 20, 2004 05:17pm

Re: I agree with icallfouls
 
Quote:

Originally posted by williebfree
icallfouls's posting is darn near verbatim of my sentiments as I read through the lengthy list of responses.

wildcatman

I do not want this to seem like a personal attack, because I do not believe in that method of getting a point across. I prefer that you view my following observation as CONSTRUCTIVE criticism:

Unless you have worn the stripes and whistle, invested hours of rules study, and spent your money to participate in officiating clinics, it is extremely difficult to feel that you can make anything but a subjective (uninformed) assessment of PAC-10 officiating. Are you willing to subject yourself to the same rigorous demand to be considered a candidate as a PAC-10 official before you pass judgement on the officials’ performance, good or bad?

If you are relying on the media (TV, radio, print, et al) as a resource to support your position, most of us will tell you that is a faulted approach because they demonstrate the same uninformed basis in making their assessments of officiating.

To be honest with you, I do not feel qualified to publicly pass judgement on the PAC-10 officials. Additionally, I chose to honor the decorum of respect that should be demonstrated for all officials who have been assigned to work the game, by people in positions of responsibility to do so.


MY final observation: Officials enter the court with the attitude that they want the game played within the rules. Their responsibility is to ensure that it is played that way. Officials do not care who wins the game.

Great post. I know most of my argument is based on my own subjectivity, but I think if you saw some of the officiating I was referring to you would understand my frustration. I understand there are going to be some bad calls every now and then, but where there's smoke there's fire, and if enough "biased" media say something, maybe something really is wrong.

I honestly mean no offense. I understand that being an official at any level is a heavy task, and I make no assumptions that I could do it better. I just think at the D1 level, there should be better officiating. I expect more from professionals, and some of you do too- here's another thread about questionable PAC 10 officiating:

http://www.officialforum.com/thread/12355

blindzebra Fri Feb 20, 2004 05:19pm

Quote:

Originally posted by wildcatman
This is what I'm talking about- there is a problem in the PAC 10, but nothing is being done about it. Henry Bibby, head coach for USC, was quoted in the Charleston Post & Courier:

Bibby has decided to stop talking about the officiating.

"I'm done with that," he said Monday. "It basically falls on deaf ears and I'm done. I'm moving on. The pieces fall where they may."

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.charleston.net/stories/01...ss046529.shtml

For those questioning the validity of my previous statements, please note this is a non-Wildcat related topic from a non-Wildcat related publication.


Let's see you quote your school paper,then a coach that is famous for being one of the biggest whiners in the world.

Let me try to be constructive here,you asked about the quality of officiating in the Pac 10 and EVERY official on here that IS knowledgeable of rules and how to apply them has told you that the Pac 10 guys are on par with other conferences.Yet you keep quoting fans,coaches and media
who DO NOT KNOW about the rules.Every time I watch a game on TV I hear them saying,"They were reaching in," or,"That is not a charge,his feet were not on the floor." Well guess
what,there is no foul for reaching in and your feet do not need to be on the floor to draw a charge.

Just because we are not agreeing with your biased stance,does not mean we are wrong about the officiating in the Pac 10.

Adam Fri Feb 20, 2004 05:19pm

Sorry, Wildcat, this thread doesn't mean anything. Read it more closely and you'll see that those who saw the play say it was very close.

Try again.

wildcatman Fri Feb 20, 2004 05:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Sorry, Wildcat, this thread doesn't mean anything. Read it more closely and you'll see that those who saw the play say it was very close.

Try again.

Nevadaref said the second backcourt call was incorrect, and I don't think anyone disputed him, but just said it was close. I said it was questionable. I think that's fair.

Like I said, I mean no offense. There are not many avenues for frustration like mine to take- I believe in sportsmanship of the fans as well as the players, so I don't yell anything crude or distasteful to opposing teams or officials. I wish I had some video, because it seems like some of the calls in the PAC 10 have been especially bad this year. I just wanted to know why officiating doesn't seem to get better, and I wanted to vent a little too, I guess. All the constructive replies were appreciated.

BktBallRef Fri Feb 20, 2004 08:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Yawn. Why did anybody try to respond seriously to this thread? :confused:

Yeah, like anybody's gonna change fanboy's mind. Waste of time.

I'm betting ol' numbnuts here also posts as BBallCoach! Whatta ya say? :D

One-Whistle Fri Feb 20, 2004 09:14pm

NFHS Ruling
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Yawn. Why did anybody try to respond seriously to this thread? :confused:

Yeah, like anybody's gonna change fanboy's mind. Waste of time.

I'm betting ol' numbnuts here also posts as BBallCoach! Whatta ya say? :D

The thought that this is a “rebirth” of Bballcoach DEFINITELY crossed my mind much earlier in the thread. Regardless of the reality whether he is or is not, it is certain that he is of the same ilk.

Williebfree and icallfouls gave a clear challenge for wildcatfan to accept that we would not agree on this issue just by the nature of our allegiances. wildcatfan then perpetuated his uninformed stance by citing an officiating.com thread which had brief and unapplicable content to support his argument. His self-proclaimed fallacy of an unbias stance and the illegitimacy of his resources is getting tiring.

IMHO, THERE IS NOTHING CONSTRUCTIVE TO BE GAINED by continuing this thread. THis is my first AND LAST posting in this thread.

Good day! :)

wildcatman Sat Feb 21, 2004 02:54am

Re: NFHS Ruling
 
Quote:

Originally posted by One-Whistle
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Yawn. Why did anybody try to respond seriously to this thread? :confused:

Yeah, like anybody's gonna change fanboy's mind. Waste of time.

I'm betting ol' numbnuts here also posts as BBallCoach! Whatta ya say? :D

The thought that this is a “rebirth” of Bballcoach DEFINITELY crossed my mind much earlier in the thread. Regardless of the reality whether he is or is not, it is certain that he is of the same ilk.

Williebfree and icallfouls gave a clear challenge for wildcatfan to accept that we would not agree on this issue just by the nature of our allegiances. wildcatfan then perpetuated his uninformed stance by citing an officiating.com thread which had brief and unapplicable content to support his argument. His self-proclaimed fallacy of an unbias stance and the illegitimacy of his resources is getting tiring.

IMHO, THERE IS NOTHING CONSTRUCTIVE TO BE GAINED by continuing this thread. THis is my first AND LAST posting in this thread.

Good day! :)

Listen, if you guys can't take criticism, then you are way too full of yourselves. I think I was very constructive in my comments, and I NEVER ONCE said I was unbiased, and in fact stated the opposite. I'll state it again- yes I am biased, yes I care who wins or loses, but I would much rather have consistent and accurate officiating then anything else, including wins. I have no idea who "Bballcoach" is. This is my first time to this forum and while there are some here that understand it's purpose- to promote any and all discourse on officiating and things related- it's obvious that there are many here who cannot take criticism.

Williebfree and icallfouls made constructive, intelligent points, and I gave them credit for that. Some of you need to read a few more times before you reply.

I am called "uninformed," among other things. Do I need to know everything about something to have an opinion on it? If this is true, then some of you are saying only officials can judge other officials on officiating. I think the rational people here will see that this is debatable- just because someone doesn't know all the rules doesn't mean that they can't see a bad call. How many times have any of you been watching a game when a non-referee friend notice a bad or missed call before you?

If I am so uninformed and so blind to the ways of officiating, then prove me wrong. May the first of you that has never had a missed or bad call tell me that I am totally wrong about the PAC 10, and it's all the players, coaches, and fans who are mistaken.

Brad Sat Feb 21, 2004 04:35am

wildcatman,

This may be your first visit here, but you are borderline on an ejection... We do not go for personal attacks on this forum, so I would stay away from the derogatory comments towards others on the board.

The article by Greg Hansen was one of the worst excuses for journalism that I have seen in a long time. His bitterness was only exceeded by his ignorance.

He called the crew of Tommy Nuñez, Bill Vinovich and Tom Wood a "lower-level crew"... They are ALL NCAA Tournament officials! In addition to that, Bill Vinovich is an NFL official and Tommy Nuñez (Jr.) is the son of former NBA Tommy Nuñez who retired last year after a career of 30 years.

Tommy Nuñez, Bill Vinovich and Tom Wood have forgotten more about officiating than Greg Hansen will even know. Furthermore, the fact that he identifies them as a "lower-level crew" shows that he can't even do HIS job as a journalist.

At the end of his ramblings he even takes a jab at Tommy Nuñez for flying first class. Give me a break!

Understand that this board is by and for officials. We have coaches and fans that participate because they can do so in a reasonable manner. Fans that think that this forum can be used as an extension of their 3rd row seat in the gym to berate officials are going to be sadly disappointed!

- Brad

wildcatman Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:57am

Quote:

Originally posted by Brad
wildcatman,

This may be your first visit here, but you are borderline on an ejection... We do not go for personal attacks on this forum, so I would stay away from the derogatory comments towards others on the board.

The article by Greg Hansen was one of the worst excuses for journalism that I have seen in a long time. His bitterness was only exceeded by his ignorance.

He called the crew of Tommy Nuñez, Bill Vinovich and Tom Wood a "lower-level crew"... They are ALL NCAA Tournament officials! In addition to that, Bill Vinovich is an NFL official and Tommy Nuñez (Jr.) is the son of former NBA Tommy Nuñez who retired last year after a career of 30 years.

Tommy Nuñez, Bill Vinovich and Tom Wood have forgotten more about officiating than Greg Hansen will even know. Furthermore, the fact that he identifies them as a "lower-level crew" shows that he can't even do HIS job as a journalist.

At the end of his ramblings he even takes a jab at Tommy Nuñez for flying first class. Give me a break!

Understand that this board is by and for officials. We have coaches and fans that participate because they can do so in a reasonable manner. Fans that think that this forum can be used as an extension of their 3rd row seat in the gym to berate officials are going to be sadly disappointed!

- Brad


Brad-

My last post my have had some personal attacks, and I apologize. I understand that officials take a lot of heat, but I feel my criticism was nothing if NOT personal- and I was replied to with personal attacks. Is this the way it is in this forum? Personal attacks from "uninformed biased trolls" will not be tolerated, while personal attacks from the members of this forum are?

According to the logic of this thread, you cannot judge Greg Hansen's article, because you don't know enough about journalism. Until you submit yourself to the rigors of a bachelors or masters in journalism, and then numerous years writing obituary columns until you get a real writing assignment, you will not have enough knowledge on journalism to judge Hansen's article.

Like I said before, I believe in the sportsmanship of the players as wells as the fans- I don't yell or boo at officials at games, and I sit in the student section. I still get frustrated though, and I thought I would broach the topic here. Some of the replies were constructive and educational, and I really appreciate that. Some were juvenile, and I realize that coming into a place like this with my comments makes me a target for those who cannot or don't want to honestly examine PAC 10 officiating, and poor officiating in general. I know most, if not all, officials work for peanuts because they love the game, and their most important goal is to call the game cleanly and correctly. Things go wrong, I understand, but I just think officiating in the PAC 10 could be better. That's my uninformed, biased, fanatic-troll opinion.


Brad Sat Feb 21, 2004 01:01pm

I think that we are pretty even handed when it comes to not allowing personal attacks. Keep in mind, as officials we are yelled at and berated all the time, so those that do so here simply aren't going to be given a lot of leeway. I think that we deserve a place to call our own without being constantly hasseled by the same ignoramuses that yell at us during games.

The comment regarding me not having a journalism degree is a non sequitur. I do not need a journalism degree nor any experience as a writer to point out that he got a fact wrong.

As officials we read articles all the time that make no sense -- you have referenced two yourself on this thread. The first I've already addressed and the second makes a statement regarding the ball entering the basket before the light/horn goes off. As officials we all know that this is not the rule, thus the credibility of the writer goes out the window.

So, when someone comes along who has not demonstrated any knowledge of the subject and simply remarks, "the PAC-10 has more bad or missed calls than any other conference" it just doens't pass muster.

Adam Sat Feb 21, 2004 01:08pm

Let's see if we can make this constructive
 
First some definitions.

Missed Call: A misapplication of the rules. This would include phantom travels, missed back court violations, and calling a foul with zero contact.

Questionable calls: Calls requiring judgment due to the nature of the call/no call. This includes having to make a split second determination of whether his foot hit the line (back court and out of bounds), whether the contact made warrants a foul, or whether the behavior warrants a T.

You'll find refs are more likely to claim someone made a "missed" call when it's obvious than to challenge a "questionable" call. Even then there is a strong (implied or expressed) caveat that our opinion assumes the play described happened as written. Some might go so far as to say they wouldn't have call it that way, but rarely will they say the ref kicked a judgment call. Even when we see it (in person or on TV). It's the common courtesy of deferring to the one who actually had to make the call.

Now, the two plays you offered as examples don't work. One (the foul on the shot) was a judgment call, it seems. The other seems to have been a case where the refs got it right and the journalist was woefully ignorant of the rule.
Unless you have more concrete examples of "missed" calls, your point goes nowhere.
Secondly, you would need to show that the PAC-10 is worse off than other conferences. That would be quite a task, given that you won't find confirmation from fans of other conferences; and you admittedly don't watch other conferences. One must assume, therefore, that you are complaining about D-1 officials in general. yet I think you would need to show us that officials are actually "missing" calls rather than judging it differently than you would.

Why are you here? Are you here to vent or are you here to discuss? We don't take what look like uninformed rants very well. If you're here to discuss, then ask questions about individual plays. We'll answer rules questions, interpretation questions, and even officiating philosophy questions. Tell me what you expect out of participating in this board.

blindzebra Sat Feb 21, 2004 01:28pm

Re: Re: NFHS Ruling
 
Quote:

Originally posted by wildcatman
Quote:

Originally posted by One-Whistle
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Yawn. Why did anybody try to respond seriously to this thread? :confused:

Yeah, like anybody's gonna change fanboy's mind. Waste of time.

I'm betting ol' numbnuts here also posts as BBallCoach! Whatta ya say? :D

The thought that this is a “rebirth” of Bballcoach DEFINITELY crossed my mind much earlier in the thread. Regardless of the reality whether he is or is not, it is certain that he is of the same ilk.

Williebfree and icallfouls gave a clear challenge for wildcatfan to accept that we would not agree on this issue just by the nature of our allegiances. wildcatfan then perpetuated his uninformed stance by citing an officiating.com thread which had brief and unapplicable content to support his argument. His self-proclaimed fallacy of an unbias stance and the illegitimacy of his resources is getting tiring.

IMHO, THERE IS NOTHING CONSTRUCTIVE TO BE GAINED by continuing this thread. THis is my first AND LAST posting in this thread.

Good day! :)

Listen, if you guys can't take criticism, then you are way too full of yourselves. I think I was very constructive in my comments, and I NEVER ONCE said I was unbiased, and in fact stated the opposite. I'll state it again- yes I am biased, yes I care who wins or loses, but I would much rather have consistent and accurate officiating then anything else, including wins. I have no idea who "Bballcoach" is. This is my first time to this forum and while there are some here that understand it's purpose- to promote any and all discourse on officiating and things related- it's obvious that there are many here who cannot take criticism.

Williebfree and icallfouls made constructive, intelligent points, and I gave them credit for that. Some of you need to read a few more times before you reply.

I am called "uninformed," among other things. Do I need to know everything about something to have an opinion on it? If this is true, then some of you are saying only officials can judge other officials on officiating. I think the rational people here will see that this is debatable- just because someone doesn't know all the rules doesn't mean that they can't see a bad call. How many times have any of you been watching a game when a non-referee friend notice a bad or missed call before you?

If I am so uninformed and so blind to the ways of officiating, then prove me wrong. May the first of you that has never had a missed or bad call tell me that I am totally wrong about the PAC 10, and it's all the players, coaches, and fans who are mistaken.


If you don't know the rules,what is illegal contact,what is incidental contact how can you honestly know if it was a
bad call?

This is not a put down,I'm actually trying to explain how things work on the court.

In your original post you were citing a bad call on a block that was,"All ball,he was 3 feet away from him."
Were you watching the whole play or just the block? It is very possible that the foul occurred BEFORE the block,but the official was applying advantage/disadvantage,and when the defender was able to block the shot he deemed the contact BEFORE the block did hinder the shooter.

You added money to the problem by saying,"That some officials are working for peanuts and want to do as good a job as they can,because they love the game." That is true,but let me ask you,if you are making $750 to $1,000
a game would you not try your best? It would be STUPID not to because less then 10% of officials get to work at that
level,so there are tens of thousands of us that would gladly take their place. They are evaluated on EVERY game.
They keep their jobs by maintaining a high level of officiating and working to get better.

Officials are human and we will make mistakes,at that level the players are too big and gifted for the officials to see everything that occurs.They have dedicated years of hard work to reach this level and are working hard to stay there.However,they are doing a job where they are expected
to be perfect and still GET BETTER!

wildcatman Sat Feb 21, 2004 01:47pm

Re: Let's see if we can make this constructive
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
First some definitions.

Missed Call: A misapplication of the rules. This would include phantom travels, missed back court violations, and calling a foul with zero contact.

Questionable calls: Calls requiring judgment due to the nature of the call/no call. This includes having to make a split second determination of whether his foot hit the line (back court and out of bounds), whether the contact made warrants a foul, or whether the behavior warrants a T.

You'll find refs are more likely to claim someone made a "missed" call when it's obvious than to challenge a "questionable" call. Even then there is a strong (implied or expressed) caveat that our opinion assumes the play described happened as written. Some might go so far as to say they wouldn't have call it that way, but rarely will they say the ref kicked a judgment call. Even when we see it (in person or on TV). It's the common courtesy of deferring to the one who actually had to make the call.

Now, the two plays you offered as examples don't work. One (the foul on the shot) was a judgment call, it seems. The other seems to have been a case where the refs got it right and the journalist was woefully ignorant of the rule.
Unless you have more concrete examples of "missed" calls, your point goes nowhere.
Secondly, you would need to show that the PAC-10 is worse off than other conferences. That would be quite a task, given that you won't find confirmation from fans of other conferences; and you admittedly don't watch other conferences. One must assume, therefore, that you are complaining about D-1 officials in general. yet I think you would need to show us that officials are actually "missing" calls rather than judging it differently than you would.

Why are you here? Are you here to vent or are you here to discuss? We don't take what look like uninformed rants very well. If you're here to discuss, then ask questions about individual plays. We'll answer rules questions, interpretation questions, and even officiating philosophy questions. Tell me what you expect out of participating in this board.

Brad, Snagwells, good posts. I differ on the Hansen article, and fail to see any factual errors, but the Daily Wildcat quote is crap. The Bibby quote was used to show how frustrating it is not to have many options when a coach/player/fan has questions about officiating. I know he is a big whiner, but in his quote, he's complaining that he can't say anything about officiating or officials because he would risk a fine, censure, or both.

I guess that's why I'm here. I saw this as an avenue to discuss officiating, and I realize that I need to be more specific on my concerns out of respect for the members of this forum. It's easy to forget that officials are human, and the pressure of calling any game has got to be intense. After reading other threads here, I was comforted knowing the passion and commitment that was displayed. I'm sure some of you can understand, I was frustrated, and felt like I had a legitimate concern about PAC 10 officiating. In the future, I will try to address specific plays and use as much supportive evidence as I can muster.

Thanks for all constructive replies. Cincinatti is playing Louisville right now, and OSU and Arizona are playing tonight, so I've got some games to watch.

canuckrefguy Sat Feb 21, 2004 07:21pm

I told you guys (and gals) a while back that we need to beware of all these "coaches" and "fans" coming here specifically to spout off about how we, in general, suck so bad.

Wildcat, the gist of your original post, albeit diplomatically written, was that Pac-10 officials suck, they screw your team constantly, and what do we all think about that. You deserve whatever replies - constructive (in your mind) or otherwise (in your mind) - that come your way.

By all means, go back to your den and scream at the refs on TV some more. Have fun.

SMEngmann Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:28pm

I really think it's funny to go to some these games (HS and college) and just listen to how ignorant and abusive the fans are. Most fans have no clue how the officials get to the level that they're officiating and really have no idea how closely scrutinized the officials are at the higher levels. Most fans I'm sure think that the officials just sign up, arrive at the gym 15 minutes before the game strap of a whistle and just call 'em. Most fans have no idea that in a D1 game, the officials have worked thousands of games and risen above the rest through hard work. They have no clue that every single call that is made, from every single position on the floor is taped and scrutinized often from several angles by observers, who, unlike fans, have an extensive officiating background. As officials when fans and sportswriters who have ADMITTEDLY never officiated a game in their lives criticize the best of the best, I think it is only fair for us to react harshly. Fans like Wildcatfan have a right to their opinion, but that opinion should be expressed in a fan forum rather than an officiating forum. Fans have just as much right to criticize the playcalling of NFL coaches in football, but imagine what would happen if a fan with no coaching experience posted his criticism on a board of football coaches, it would be immediately dismissed as ignorant. Everyone can offer an opinion, just your opinion carries no weight among officials when you've never once called a game and you have no knowledge of the rules.


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