AZ v. Ore backcourt from C

[Nevadaref]

I just watched a replay of this game. It stood out in my mind because there were two backcourt violations. You don't see that very often in a D-I mens game. Anyway, what this post is about is that the first backcourt call was absolutely correct as Oregon had the ball in the f/c and AZ knocked a pass away, which was then last touched by an OR guard before it got to the b/c and then he touched it again.
While the announcers babbled their disagreement with the call (saying that the touch by the OR guard was not control), I was watching the officials on the replay and noticed that both the C and the T were calling the violation and both were signalling. I thought that to be a bit strange.
Well, this very thing came back to bite them later as with 1:59 to go with about an 8pt lead for AZ, the C incorrectly called a b/c violation on AZ. The ball clearly bounced in the f/c and the T was standing on the division line on the opposite side of the court with a clear view and did not have a call. He also did not come talk to his partner about the call and it was not reversed.
Goes to show that the big guys goof too.

I'll also add that as AZ was dribbling out the clock at the end without any pressure from OR, the shot clock expired with .4 seconds remaining on the game clock. One official did signal the violation, but they just ended the game.
While I agree with doing this, I seem to remember the NCAA being picky about needing to call this violation and have another throw-in.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Feb 20th, 2004 at 05:58 AM]

[Andy]

I saw the second play on the tube and immediately wondered about it. Not so much the call as the TV angle wasn't good enough during live action to see if the ball actually was dribbled backcourt, but the fact that the BC violation was called by the C. To his defense, the C was out toward the center line as the ball was in the middle of the court and there was defensive pressure. Still the T was basically straddling the center line and would have had a better look at the play.

The official who made the call was from here in Phoenix, I might have to ask him about that next time I see him!

[BOBBYMO]

Who's Primary did the ball come from when it was heading towords the 1/2 court line? C or T ?

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Last night in the rec league I play in, 26-26 at the half, we are up 30-26? early in second shooting FTs. We miss the second, and our big man slaps the rebound back out into our backcourt, which we recover. The opponents' go ballistic looking for a backcourt call, and end up with three Ts before all is said and done. I thought it was funny to watch them get mad and be wrong!

[Hawks Coach]

I find it humorous when rec league players of any level have the audacity to tell the refs how to do their job. While some are like you and know the rules pretty well, most are completely clueless and learned all they know from TV announcers or the way it was done in HS 20 years ago.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by BOBBYMO
Who's Primary did the ball come from when it was heading towords the 1/2 court line? C or T ?

I know what you are thinking, but this was not one of those plays where the ball came from deep in the C's primary and flew out to mid-court. It was out there the whole time.
Here are the details.

The ball was being held out high by an AZ guard. He was on the C's side of the court a couple of steps away from both the division line and the sideline. The C was top of the key extended or maybe a little higher, watching the play. Remember, AZ is ahead by 8 with 2 minutes to play, so they are in a spread offense attempting to run some clock.
The defender slapped the ball away from the AZ player who, in his attempt to recover it, then slapped it down to the floor himself. All replays I saw show that the ball bounced in the frontcourt after he hit it. When he caught to ball, still standing very near to where he started, the C called the backcourt violation. Again, the T, who was standing directly on the division line on the opposite side of the court, did not have a whistle.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
The ball was being held out high by an AZ guard. He was on the C's side of the court a couple of steps away from both the division line and the sideline. The C was top of the key extended or maybe a little higher, watching the play. Remember, AZ is ahead by 8 with 2 minutes to play, so they are in a spread offense attempting to run some clock.
The defender slapped the ball away from the AZ player who, in his attempt to recover it, then slapped it down to the floor himself. All replays I saw show that the ball bounced in the frontcourt after he hit it. When he caught to ball, still standing very near to where he started, the C called the backcourt violation. Again, the T, who was standing directly on the division line on the opposite side of the court, did not have a whistle.

The C might have been the only official that saw the entire play. That is a good call from the C, because the play was in his primary all the way. The T might have been guessing and might have been watching something else. The C cannot just pass on this crucial call because it is not his primary. But this is his secondary call and sounded like a good call. Even in my pregames I address plays like this and situations that the C should and can call a backcourt violation. Might have been something that not only was discussed, but taught by evaluators.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge


The C might have been the only official that saw the entire play. That is a good call from the C, because the play was in his primary all the way. The T might have been guessing and might have been watching something else. The C cannot just pass on this crucial call because it is not his primary. But this is his secondary call and sounded like a good call. Even in my pregames I address plays like this and situations that the C should and can call a backcourt violation. Might have been something that not only was discussed, but taught by evaluators.

Peace

I agree with this. I didn't see the play but the C would have been very focussed on this high trap. Very well could be the T was screened out on the O&B call too. I suspect the C didn't want to shift his view to get BEHIND the play by pulling back to T and initiating a rotation, but for sure this is where he NEEDED to be.

Mechanically a sound call, too bad they (apparently) kicked it.

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Nevadaref


The ball was being held out high by an AZ guard. He was on the C's side of the court a couple of steps away from both the division line and the sideline. The C was top of the key extended or maybe a little higher, watching the play. Remember, AZ is ahead by 8 with 2 minutes to play, so they are in a spread offense attempting to run some clock.
The defender slapped the ball away from the AZ player who, in his attempt to recover it, then slapped it down to the floor himself. All replays I saw show that the ball bounced in the frontcourt after he hit it. When he caught to ball, still standing very near to where he started, the C called the backcourt violation. Again, the T, who was standing directly on the division line on the opposite side of the court, did not have a whistle. [/B]

I guess I'm confused Nevada, what does the fact that the ball bounced in the frontcourt after he hit it have to do with anything? Are you saying that the official thought it hit the division line? Or, did it afterwards go into the backcourt and was recovered? I did not see the play, obviously...

[Nevadaref]

Devdog,
Unfortunately, what I am saying is that the ball never entered the backcourt on the play at all. From the replays that I saw, the ball did not hit the line on the bounce, and then was caught by the AZ guard while he was still standing in the frontcourt, so there is no possible way that it was a violation.

While I agree with the teamwork thoughts that others have shared and believe that there certainly are times for the C to call b/c, I don't believe that this play was one of those situations as IMO the T was not blocked out from the play. He could not see whether there was a foul or not when the ball was dislodged (the C had this look), but he certainly could see who hit the ball last and had a great view of whether or not the ball hit the division line.

I'd say that this was one of those plays where someone went out of his primary and kicked it. Lower percentage call. Just add it to the stats those guys track.

Again my real problem with the mechanic on the play was that the same C and T (don't know if they were in reversed positions or not) both had the call on that earlier play that I mentioned in my original post.
Due to this fact, it seems the teamwork and trust wasn't as good as it should have been for these partners and this is what led to the erroneous call.

If I'm T and my C calls the violation once and is helping, fine with me, but twice, (and gets it wrong) I have to feel like he is uncomfortable working with me and doesn't trust my judgment.