Question about foul on inbounds play

[Damian]

There was recently a thread where a team would attempt to draw a foul after a made basket by setting a screen on the person defending the throw in and the thrower would run the base line. The attempt is to have the defender not see the screen and run into it, thus drawing a foul.

What if the screener has his foot on the OOB line? This year we had a editorial change on legal guarding position, but this is a screen. I would guess that same would apply as the screener is not a legal player if he is out of bounds.

What do you think?

[footlocker]

agreed. But the rule change only applies to initial legal gaurding position. After that he may be outside. No?

[finnref]

Am I missing something? If a defender runs into a legally set blind screen, even with force, where is the foul? If he forced or pushed his way through the screen then we would have a foul. In this play are you must be anticipating the latter.

[finnref]

Footlocker. I agree.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by footlocker
agreed. But the rule change only applies to initial legal gaurding position. After that he may be outside. No?

If the screener has a foot OOB when the contact occurs, the foul for contact-if called- is always on the screener.

[Adam]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

If the screener has a foot OOB when the contact occurs, the foul for contact-if called- is always on the screener.

Uhm... Based on what? Is "legal guarding position" required for protection on a screen?

[Adam]

Originally posted by finnref
Am I missing something? If a defender runs into a legally set blind screen, even with force, where is the foul? If he forced or pushed his way through the screen then we would have a foul. In this play are you must be anticipating the latter.

Assuming the latter here, I've got a charging foul on the screened player (defense). While the screener may not have LGP, she is still entitled to her spot on the floor, is she not?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
[/B]

Assuming the latter here, I've got a charging foul on the screened player (defense). While the screener may not have LGP, she is still entitled to her spot on the floor, is she not?
[/B][/QUOTE]Yes, the screener is entitled to her spot on the court. She is not entitled to a spot off of the court. Check out the link below from the NFHS. They outline the sprit and intent of the rules there.

http://www.nfhs.org/Sports/basketbal...clarified.html

Spirit and Intent- The spirit and intent of the game of basketball has traditionally been that play occurs within the boundary lines".

Then check out the section titled " Balance between Offense and Defense". That principle holds true for both teams. A player is gaining an unfair advantage if they are permitted to use an area outside of the playing court. Using those principles, I don't think that it's much of a leap to state that a screen is illegal if the screener is OOB.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 18th, 2004 at 05:05 PM]

[Camron Rust]

A screener is not bound by the legal guarding positions rules but is bound by the rules of screening. Legal guarding position only applies to defensive players.

Rule 4

SECTION 23 GUARDING
ART. 1 . . . Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent.

SECTION 39 SCREEN
ART. 1 . . . A screen is legal action by a player who, without causing contact, delays or prevents an opponent from reaching a desired position.
ART. 2 . . . To establish a legal screening position:
a. The screener may face any direction.
b. Time and distance are relevant.
c. The screener must be stationary, except when both are moving in the same path and the same direction.
ART. 3 . . . When screening a stationary opponent from the front or side, the screener may be anywhere short of contact.
ART. 4 . . . When screening a stationary opponent from behind, the screener must allow the opponent one normal step backward without contact.
ART. 5 . . . When screening a moving opponent, the screener must allow the opponent time and distance to avoid contact. The distance need not be more than two strides.
ART. 6 . . . When screening an opponent who is moving in the same path and direction as the screener is moving, the opponent is responsible for contact if the screener slows up or stops.


No screener will gain an advantage by having a foot OOB. If anything, it will reduce their advantage. If they are near or on the line, that leaves absolutely NO room for a teammate to use the screen. The teammate must go on the inbounds side of them. If they go on the OOB side, then you have something else to call. So, the more they move OOB, the less efective the screen. Therefore, with a decreasing advantage by being OOB, contact, if sufficient for a foul is the responsibility of the screened player.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by footlocker
agreed. But the rule change only applies to initial legal gaurding position. After that he may be outside. No?

No they may not be outside the boundary even after establishing LGP..

As far as a screen goes, if you want a foul on the screened player, I don't think it is a big leap to require the screening player to gbe inbounds. If they are OOB it is incidental contact...and even if they are in bounds the contact has to be pretty severe and displace the screener significantly.

[Damian]

I think you missed the scenario. The screen was setup on the person guarding the person throwing the ball in. When he runs the endline, the defensive player will run along too. The screen would not be blind as it would be from the side.

So there would be an advantage in this particular case to having one foot OOB since the person he defending is already legally OOB.

Thanks to all for the good comments.

[Adam]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Assuming the latter here, I've got a charging foul on the screened player (defense). While the screener may not have LGP, she is still entitled to her spot on the floor, is she not?
[/B]

Yes, the screener is entitled to her spot on the court. She is not entitled to a spot off of the court. Check out the link below from the NFHS. They outline the sprit and intent of the rules there.

http://www.nfhs.org/Sports/basketbal...clarified.html

Spirit and Intent- The spirit and intent of the game of basketball has traditionally been that play occurs within the boundary lines".

Then check out the section titled " Balance between Offense and Defense". That principle holds true for both teams. A player is gaining an unfair advantage if they are permitted to use an area outside of the playing court. Using those principles, I don't think that it's much of a leap to state that a screen is illegal if the screener is OOB.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 18th, 2004 at 05:05 PM] [/B][/QUOTE]

The only time this comes into play on a throwin is when the offense can run the endline. In that case, A2 is perfectly within his rights to be "out of bounds" and then is not leaving the playing court. If we're talking about a spot throw in, I can see your point (perhaps). However, this is different since the playing court includes the area outside the endline. The offense has the right to be out of bounds or in bounds, but the defense does not.
I've still got a legal screen.

Adam

[Adam]

One more thought. If they're off the court to the point where they aren't entitled to their spot, wouldn't that by rule be a "T" (leaving the court for an unauthorized reason) rather than a blocking foul? Note, this doesn't apply to an end line throw in as much as for a spot throwin. It might even apply to a normal screen in regular play near a line. Losing legal guarding position is not the same as losing the right to your spot.

[mplagrow]

That's an interesting take on it, Adam. Let me try and argue the point here. . .the offense can run the endline. They can pass to a teammate OOB. These rules give the offense an advantage to break a press, for example. I think that placing your foot on that line is giving you an advantage not intended by the rule. I've still got an illegal block. Anybody else? Do the rules address that scenario?

[Foncal]

I have always been told that legal play takes place in-bounds. Therefore a player on the boundry line is illegal and the screener should be charged with the foul!

-- Take care -- Craig