It would be nice to have a procedural change for bench personal to be allowed to put a 7 on the score board after the 6th foul has been addressed and a 10 on the score board after the 9th foul has been addressed so when we as officials look up at the score board we don't have to look up and see a 6 or 9 and wonder if this is the foul that just occured posted up there or the previous foul. For our purposes the only one's that really matter are the 7th and the 10th. The other fouls are a mute point. Last night the bench did not tell us it was the 10th nor was it posted and so we administered a one and one and then ended up having a correctable error which is no big deal but it would be nice to look at the clock and see the numbers up there that are significant. Many times when I see a 6 or nine I question if it is the 7th or the 10th but when I see a 7 or a 10 on the board I know exactly what my next move should be. I think this procedural change would not have any affect on the game other than to make our job a little easier.

DJ, wouldn't you just wonder if this was really the 7th foul, or if it was the next one? :confused:

Don't care!
 

Chuck you are missing the point that being what do we care if it is the next one? I only care about the 7th and the 10th. So let me know as soon as possible when these important milestones have been reached. Explain to me why this is not a good idea!

I think I see what he is geting at...
 

I think what you are saying is don't put up any numbers except 7 and 10... Am I right???

To be honest I don't trust the scoreboards to begin with and try to keep track in my head and rely on the book to let me know when we are in the bonuses....

Re: Don't care!
 

I guess I am missing the point. Are you saying that if there's a 7 on the board before the 7th foul is committed, then you'll know that the next foul is 1-and-1; but if there's a 6 on the board, you won't know that the next foul is 1-and-1? :confused:

But your suggestion is to post it before it's been reached.

If the 7 is posted immediately after the 6th foul is committed, don't you think that will be just as confusing?

Re: Re: Don't care!
 

Let's make the problem with this clearer with a scenario.

Team B commits a common foul. It is the sixth foul. I report, we get back in position. I glance up at the scoreboard and the timer has put a 7 on the board for Team B fouls.

At this point I'm likely to stop proceedings and head to the table to sort out whether we should be shooting.

Better procedure: Know when teams are nearing the bonus and on SIX communicate to your partners to let them know that the NEXT one will start bonus free throws. We usually do it with a quick index finger/pinky signal to each other before putting the ball in play.

--Rich

PS - It's MOOT point.

This is really goofy. Rich has it exactly right. Pay attention through out the game and you'll be expecting the one and one. Then when you call the seventh foul you can look real sharp by pointing to the offended player and yelling to your partner, that's my shooter. Plus, I love signaling one-and-one to the table before the scorer can indicate it to me. It shows everyone that I know what is going on. And I do.

By the way, ever see the single red lighted circle for the one-and-one and the two red lighted circles for the double bonus. It exists and is the same thing that you are proposing. Still the best solution is to train yourself to pay attention.

bonus lights
 

I also think it would be good procedure to put the bonus lights on after the 6th foul and the ball has been inbounded so again a quick glance and everyone in the gym will know the procedure for the 7th foul.

Re: bonus lights
 

I see your point, DJ, but I think this would be more confusing. If the foul count says 6, but the bonus light is shining, people would think there had been an error. The best thing is to do what Rich suggests and communicate with your partner that THE NEXT foul will be the bonus.

What I'm trying to work on this year, is keeping track of EVERYTHING. As soon as an AP ball is passed inbounds, check the arrow. When I chop in the clock, be sure it's running. Keep close track of the score. Check the board after every foul. I don't feel I need to REMEMBER everything, just see to it that the board is changed for each item. It's tricky!! but it sure cuts down on problems.

Re: bonus lights
 

Thats how the table I run works. After the sixth foul is reported, once the ball is handed to the inbounder or if shooting the ball is given to shooter on the second ft the bonus light goes on to indicate we are know in the bonus situation.

Of course we run a tight ship and as such your original situation never happens. No sooner than you report the foul and look up on the scoreboard you will see the correct number of team fouls.

We would never put up 7 fouls when only six have been committed. Thats what the bonus light is for, to indicate when the bonus situation is in effect.

Most officials that come to our school love working there because they know they will never have table problems.

Of course having a math teacher that been doing the book for 26 years and a registered official on the clock helps :-)

Re: Re: bonus lights
 

Do you sell clones?

Re: Re: Re: bonus lights
 

Hehe...the might have to soon. The book guy will be retiring soon and I hope to expand my referee schedule next year. Only booking the table for Friday night 10/V boys home games next year.

In defense of DJ, I have had the situation where a seemingly competent scorer puts the foul up before I report it. While I am walking over, I see the fouls are at 6 (jsut got to six). I end up signaling the one-and-one, and then get corrected by the table. I feel stupid because I shouldbe keeping track but I wish every table would hold posting anything until I have reported everything.

I see what you are saying DJ, but it all goes back to having trust at the table. Before a game I will make it a point to talk to the table and address what you are talking about. NOT to let us inbound that ball on a one and one. Give us a horn if need be. I find this only to be a problem in schools that the fouls are not posted so my partners and I can see them on the score board. (cheep score boards)

I'm not saying we do that...I'm just saying we run a quick board to help the officials because we know what we're doing.

We even buzz subs in too ;-)

Bench personal
 

If I have competent bench personal I usually have little to worrry about but when it comes to some bench personal I have as much confidence in their abilities as they do in mine!! Thus, the only numbers I want to have to worry about are the 7 and the 10. Many bench personal will signal you the bonus or two shot sign as you are giving your signal and this is much appreciated. But again this is the exception and not the rule.

Re: bonus lights
 

I think you are making a big mistake if you are relying on the scoreboard to tell you when there's a bonus situation. I mean, with the bonus lights.

To be honest, I don't worry about keeping track of the fouls most of the time. Most of the time the team fouls are correct on the board and I know when it says 6 (or 9) that something is going to be different on the next foul. Knowing we're shooting and getting the shooter on 7 is the most crucial thing.

Bonus light on the scoreboard? I don't care. Possession arrow on the scoreboard? Care even less. I only care about the number of fouls on the board (and in the book) and what the arrow on the TABLE says.

Last night working with a partner I never worked with before. On the sixth foul (which I called) I came out to assume the trail position tableside (2-man varsity in my neck of the woods). After noting it was the sixth foul, I took the time to step in and get my partner's attention and say, "Next one's bonus." How hard is that?

--Rich

Reminder's
 

All the posts seem to be on how to remind or remember that the next foul will be the 7th or the 10th. Why not put it on the board and then we don't have to be reminded that it is the 6th and the next will be the 7th? That is my point. Simplify the process and then you don't have to be remember or be reminded.

Re: Reminder's
 

By the time you look at the board, you will (or might) have forgotten who your shooter is. That's why we (need to) know ahead of time.

Re: Reminder's
 

Because you and your partner are communicating. I rarely NEED to be reminded, but it is important to communicate in order to avoid te one time in a hundred when you might get distracted and miss that a foul is the team's seventh.

Once my partner calls that seventh foul, I'm getting the shooter and getting the players lined up for foul shots. I don't need a scoreboard for that, and neither should anyone else.

I don't count on the table personnel telling me that we're in a bonus situation. By the time my partner reports we're already lined up.

--Rich

Re: Reminder's
 

Because we will have some coach or official thinking we missed a FT opportunity and it will cause more confusion. You should be aware anyway what is on that board to begin with. Just make a habit to look at the scoreboard more often. Especially with the time and sometimes the score. Because if something on it is wrong, it will and has caused problems.

Peace

Re: Reminder's
 

My response is...rely on the bonus lights, the situation you descibe is exactly why they are there. Whether an official chooses to use rely on that information is up to them.

Re: Bench personal
 

Just for the record, and no big deal, but the people who run the clock and keep the book are TABLE personnel. The bench people are the players who aren't playing at the moment and the assistant howler monkeys, and trainers, etc.

Forget?
 

Bob, forget who the shooter is? I've never been there and done that!!

Thanks for all the discussion on table pesonal, remembering and reminding myself and my partner is it the 6th or the 7th, the 9th or the 10th foul. I guess I will just keep doing it the way we have been doing it until someone comes up with a better way! Maybe it is the old age setting in because it seems like it is getting harder and harder to remember to remind!

eyezyn,

Buzz subs in too, huh. Do you hit the horn, with pride, even though you know the official has seen the sub and is waiving him in?

I hate when tables do that. If I am already waiving him in, I obviously don't need the stinking horn.

fOotlkR,

Pride?? What's that got to do with anything. I didn't say anything about pride did I? I buzz the horn so that the players on the floor know a sub is coming in and for the kid who's been sitting on the floor uderneath the table daydreaming or talking to his mom in the stands even though said official knows he's there and waving him might actually get a clue "hey they're buzzing me in"

Hell you know you got a foul, why do we need to hear a stinking wistle???

You might not need the stinking horn, but the kids still do.

Now, without being condescending...I buzz them in because when the horn goes off everyone stops and finds out what going on.

BTW its eyezen, one y only thanks.

Time out!
 

I guess I had also forgotten that the clock still said 9 fouls after we had a timeout. Which may or may not have been the reason we shot a one and one instead of the two shot foul we should have shot which then resulted in our correctable error. My partner said he glanced at the 9 on the clock when I signaled a one and one. I didn't realize there had been a timeout until after I had talked about the correctable error with another person who had been at the game. Again, concentration is the key to prevention of mistakes like this along with great table personal. So in this case advancing from the 9th to the 10th foul may or may not have prevented this scenario.

Weird suggestion
 

I wonder why there is not a handheld device for basketball referees to keep track of game stuff, much like the ball strike counter that umpires use. I bet you could design something that could keep track of posession, team fouls, and individual fouls.

How about this: a program for your palm, with all of above, and when you call a foul you pull it out and mark it off. Keep it in your back pocket!

Or what about just keeping it on a small paper notebook with a pen. The times when you need to record stuff would be a dead ball... why not?

Obviously that isn't needed for high level ball, but why not for JV/rec/intermural? Clearly it would be more reliable than questionable scoring tables?

Re: Forget?
 

seriously NEVER??? not even once??? I think you are the only official I have ever talked to that can make this claim...congrats :D

Re: bonus lights
 

This is what I do when I run the clock (we run the clock for 6 or 7 schools). As soon as the foul is reported, and the ball is ready to be put back in play (or shooting if appropriate), I put the bonus light on. This way the calling official can look at the scoreboard and see right away that the other team is in the bonus. I also tell the closest official that the team is in the bonus on the next foul.

great!
 

Nothing I like better than table personal than know how to help officials out. It's the little things that make for a smooth running game. I don't think there is an official that doesn't dread the time when the horn goes off at a dead ball and we are called over to the bench because something isn't right and usually when we leave someone thinks that they have come out on the short end of the deal. We all make mistakes but a good table is worth at least a thank you after a job well done. In reponse to, "never forgot who the shooter was", I cannot look you in the eye and say that!!

Re: great!
 

LOL ok and damn here I thought we had some sort of demi-god in our midst ;)

I pregame with the official scorer to tell me when the 6th foul has been committed. Of course I pay attention to the board as well, just in case. Then I communicate to my partner that the next foul on White/Blue we are in the bonus.

DJ - Part of being a good official is game management and knowing the situations. You've go to know when a team should be shooting 1-and-1; when it's the double bonus; how many time-outs are left, etc.

Here's a tip that Tom O'Neill, arguably one of the top D1 officials in the country, gave me: during your pre-game duties as R at the scorer's table, tell the official scorer to NEVER let you or your partners leave the table after reporting foul #6 without telling you that the next foul will be 7. That way you can communicate to your partners before you even put the ball back in play.........