There is a game situation that has always bothered me. It happens in a fast boys game. When a dribbler charges into the paint for a layup and crashes into the chest of a defender with legal guarding position, it is an easy player control call. But, as happened last night, the defender is set up in the paint and not moving. The dribbler charges in and goes to one side enough to get his head and shoulders around the defender before contact occurs. A body on the floor. A call has to be made quickly. I called a block. My "logic" is that the defender never aquired legal guarding position; he never got in front of the defender, facing him, with both feet on the floor. But in reality, he was intitled to the spot he was in because he WAS there first and he never moved. I hope that you can envision the situation I am trying to describe with words. Had the defender lifted a foot off the floor to move in, the call would have been a no brainer, but he never moved a muscle. Had he not ended up on the floor, I would likely have no called it. I have seen this situation many times and I have never been comfortable with it. I am not satisfied that either call-a charge nor a block is a really good call but something had to be called. Can anyone offer any insight regarding this situation.

Hmmmm....2 things come to mind -

LGP acquired when the defender has both feet on the playing court facing his opponent. Hard to see how A1 could do what he did without B1 facing him, so more than likely B1 has LGP. Agree?

Once A1 gets head & shoulders by B1 the responsibility for illegal contact shifts to B1. Not completely of course, but worth thinking about.

Why?

Just because a body ends up on the floor doesn't mean a foul has occurred. Often in plays like these, the player with the ball has to make such an acrobatic move to avoid contact with the defender (or slight contact that's not foul-worthy), he comes down off balance and crashes. Along those same lines, the defender, either anticipating contact or flopping to try and suck you into a charge call, ends up on the floor for no apparent reason. Not all contact is a foul. Not all bodies on the floor got there because of a foul. Kids fall down. They usually get back up. Life goes on.

Just my opinion, (and the way I called it last night). Defender is entitled to the space he is standing in on the floor, regardless of who he is defending. If a player crashes into him, causing displacement or advantage/disadvantage, he cannot be at fault. He has done nothing to initiate the play or the contact. He is legally standing in a position on the floor.

In your case the offensive player "slides" around him, or at least leans his head and shoulders past the defender. Defender still hasn't moved and is still entitled to his space. The only question that remains is advantage/disadvantage. If the offensive player has knocked him down, taking away any chance at a rebound on a miss, than I say you have an offensive foul.

Grail

I had a similar situation last week and called the PC. I'm with Grail on this one.

You don't understand the situation I am describing. It was not incidental contact nor was it minor falling or faking. There was a tremendous collision between the dribbler and the defender and the drfender was knocked to the floor. Something HAD to be called in this situation.

I would have no called it but it sounds like on of those gotta be ther to see it situations.

One question... did you use advantage/disadvantage to help your decision making process. Did the dribbler gain an advantage by the defensive player going down? Did the defender gain an advantage by affecting the dribblers path or ability to proceed with his actions? Just curious...

After reading this & rereading the original I'll add if you HAVE TO call something (and I personally have no problem with you saying something HAD to be called) then go with the PC. For 2 reasons - hard to justify calling a block on B1 if he's just standing there and calling the block will only encourage the players to take it harder & harder to the basket. And before you know it you'll have bodies on the floor on every trip.

Because the defender was severely knocked to the floor and the dribbler was displaced to the side and "stumbled" off holding the ball. Maybe you can't visualize the situation because it is hard to put the picture to words. Any good official would have HAD to call something.

After reading this last post, how about "travel"? B1 did nothing wrong...ESPECIALLY IF THEY DIDN'T MOVE. A1 stumbled off HOLDING THE BALL.

-------> TRAVEL!

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Feb 12th, 2004 at 12:22 PM]

If A1 violated as a result of the contact, you can bail out with the travel. If B1 is knocked out of position by A1 who scores or crashes, you should have a foul. The head and shoulders means nothing here. B1 has a spot on the floor - A1 must avoid the contact at that point. Just putting head and shoulders past the defender does not allow the rest of A1's body to crash through B1.

Another common missed call I see is where A1 only makes partial contact (hits half the body). Many refs go with the block in this situation as well. But it really doesn't matter how much of the body A1 hits, or what part of A1 makes the contact. If B1 is set with LGP and A1 makes contact such that it creates an advantage/disadvantage, you need to call either a violation or a foul on A1.

I agree the Hawks on this point. I will say, that whichever call you make, the important thing to remember is to "sell it". You're only going to be right to half the people anyway.

Leaning towards!
 

I agree that when I watch games that too many times officials "lean" towards not rewarding the defense for good play. If there is "judgement" (and this will cause some consternation for "rules guys) involved with this call the tendency is to call a block. When you see this called from the stands you scratch your head and wonder what angle gave that judgement!! Throw in the "flop" and this may be one of our tougher calls to get right.

You answered you own question. B1 had a legal position on the court relative to A1 and B1 never moved until A1 made contact with B1 with such force that B1 was knocked to the ground. Common foul against A1.

MTD, Sr.

Mark
He never said which player went to the floor. What if it is A1, falling over B1 and either losing the ball OOB or going to the floor holding the ball. Does your call remain a foul, or do you have a violation?

Hawks Coach:

In a later post in the thread Ralph said that B1 was knocked to the floor.

1) What if it is A1 falling over B1? Still a foul on A1.

2) What if it is A1 falling over B1 and is losing control of the ball (I know that you said losing control of the ball out-of-bounds, but that has no bearing on the play if A1's illegal contact occurs before the ball becomes dead for going out-of-bounds)? Still a foul on A1.

3) What if it is A1 falling over B1 and is losing control of the ball and the ball is about to go out-of-bounds? The ball about to go out-of-bounds if the contact occurs before the ball becomes dead for going out-of-bounds. Still a foul on A1.

4) What if it is A1 falling over B1 and goes to the floor holding the ball? Still a foul on A1.

MTD, Sr.

to the original sitch...

If I felt that the defender flopped, block call.

It sounds like he was just standing there. If you are reffing the defense and watching what he is doing (nothing in this case) and major contact occurs- it has to be the other party's fault (i.e. the shooter), right call is PC.

Furthermore, i disagree with Smitty and believe that something should be called here. if the player comes down off balance and crashes he is still an airborne shooter- PC call. If he landed first and crashes then push.

All I know is you have a major crash and the defender is not to blame. This is according to you. Foul on A1.

In my original post I didn't get that the contact was such that something needed to be called. I was assuming wrongly that it was not necessarily the kind of contact that would warrant a call being made. So in the case where it is definitely something, I definitely agree with you and the others who posted.

Mark
You can make any of those foul calls in the travel/OOB scenarios. But you can also rule otherwise.

Rule 4
SECTION 19 FOUL
ART. 1 . . . A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

A1's contact with B1 hindered A1's ability to make normal offensive movements and caused A1 to travel/lose the ball OOB. If B1 doesn't suffer from this contact, does it need to be a foul?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker
[B]Sorry to "dumb" up the thread, but what does PC stand for?

player control = PC

Hawks Coach:

I think that you do not understanding what NFHS R4-S19-A1 is saying about hindering an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements.

B1 had a legal guarding position on the court, this implies that he/she also had a legal position on the court. A1 initiated contact with B1 that hindered B1 from making normal defensive movements. The fact that A1's contact with B1 caused A1 fall or have any number of bad things to him/her does not matter. A1's contact with B1 was the illegal contact.

If B1 had moved in a manner that did not follow the guide lines set forth in the rules, then B1 would be guilty of a foul because B1's contact with A1 hindered A1 from making normal offensive movements.

MTD, Sr.

Bull$hit. Something doesn't HAVE to be called.

The mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain to occur. Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

Any idea where that little passage came from?

As to the call, it's either a no call, a travel, or a PC but it IS NOT a block. But just because there's a collision, it does not mean that a foul has to be called. That's my point. And I think I'm a pretty damn good official.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 11th, 2004 at 08:05 PM]

Lets try a common no-call on contact. A1 gets a rebound. B1 is attempting to move up court as A1 commences dribble. B1 slightly bumps A1, A1 slightly loses balance, A1 maintains complete control of ball, ball advances up court with no call.

The slight stumble of A1 would not be considered a "normal offensive movement." However, the foul is not called because A has not been disadvantaged in any way.

Same with the cases I outline. You could stretch it to say that the contact prevented movement. But lets face it, B1 is anchored to the floor and going nowhere. A1 makes the contact and either loses the ball or falls to the floor with the ball. Either way, none of this impacted what B1 was doing - standing in one spot on the floor. If you think this must be a foul on A1 by rule, you read a different set of rules than I, and ref a far different game than I commonly observe.

I think this is the key to your post. When the dribbler hits the defender squarely in the center of his chest, as you say, it is an easy call. But what is sacred about the chest in this case? Shoulder to shoulder contact, which may send the defender spinning to the floor, rather that knocking him flat on his butt, still can easily be a PC foul.

I think you are a good official too just by reading your many posts over the years. Obviously, you think that I was insulting you with my reply to your reply which was certainly not the case. I was merely trying to describe in words a situation that would be much easier to understand if seen not read. If I had felt that I had made the right call, I would not have been asking for help. After reading the many posts to my question I do now believe that the PC would have been the better call although I could have called the travel after the collision when the dribbler stumbled off holding the ball. It would have the hardest sell of the 3. Regardless what call I made, something did indeed have to be called. Again, my apologies Sir and I will be much more careful in the future when I reply to posts.

No brainer!
 

I am standing and you run into me and knock me down when you have the ball it has to be a no call or player control foul. It is a no brainer!