Had a play Tuesday night that I would like to get some feedback from the board.

I am trail in three whistle crew. Team A takes a shot and as it hits the rim bounds very long into team A's side front court near the baseline.Team A player runs and jumps and grabs the ball with one hand as he is going out of bounds and slings it into the back court. A team A player runs the ball down in back court. I have a backcourt violation by team A. The coach was screaming it wasn't a BV because his kid never had control of the ball in front court after the shot attempt. It was my oppinion that the kid who ran and grabbed the ball one handed did indeed have posession. I guess my question is, does two hands on the ball = posession or could it be only one hand ?

if in your opinion he had possession then you handled it correctly. I would agree with you, he had enough control/possession to throw it 50 some feet so IMO good call...

I would have called BC violation, also. I view this the same as if the ball had gone OOB after the shot. Team B would have gained possession as Team A was last to have possession. Otherwise, the OOB would be considered a jump ball, which is not the case.

In situations such as this, I go on the side of no control.

Let’s look at a little different situation but one involving the same “judgment” call on your part. A1 is going for a loose ball on the court. The ball is on the player’s right side and so is B1. The A1 reaches down, contacts the ball on its side or even a underneath and flings it across the front of his body to A2 who is to the left of A1. All of this takes place while A1 is running. Would you call a travel on A1 if he took a few steps while the arm/hand with ball is moving from right to left? In my ‘judgment” he does not have control so no possession, so not travel. Now back to your question. In my “judgment” just flinging the ball back does not constitute player control.

Notice all of the “judgments?” That is the key. Unless I’m 100% sure that the player could just stand there and hold the ball with his hand in the same position as he has it in the flinging motion I don’t call control and thus no Back Court here.

red
The OOB analogy does not at all apply. If the ball was going out near center court off a long rebound, and A was barely able to tap the ball on a save, there would be no team control and therefore no b/c. In this case, the ability to throw the ball a good distance is taken to mean there was sufficient player control, therefore team control, therefore b/c.

This is another thread that we had about a 317 page discussion on last year. Cannot remember the name of the thread though

I too have a BC violation. It sounds clearly, from your desc, that possession was gained.

Yup!
 

As Mregor a man of few words would say,"Yup!"

By rule, team control is established on a rebound when a player holds or dribbles the ball. The question of whether this is a backcourt violation comes down to whether you believe that the A player was holding the ball before he directed it towards the backcourt. My view is that if he simply redirected the ball like a volleyball setter might, then this is not control and not a violation. If he actually "grabbed" the ball in such a way that he was actually holding it with one hand, then I'd see this as control and hence as a violation.

I say no control. 1)We are told, while trying to gain control of a rebound or loose ball, a player reaches for the ball and directs it to the floor and it bounces back up into his hands, we have control when he grabs it and then may dribble. 2) Lets say, while this player was throwing the ball into the back court as you stated, he yelled "timeout", would you have granted it as the ball goes flighting into the BC?

Bart, I asked myself that very question after the game and my answer was yes,if he had requested a TO while in the air while the ball, I would have given it to him, but not after he already let go of it. He was almost cuping the ball between his hand and forearm while in the air. I felt as though he had control.

[Edited by tnroundballref on Feb 5th, 2004 at 02:36 PM]

Guys he threw the ball 50 feet from the baseline to the backcourt, you don't do this without controlling the ball. No I would not grant the timeout as the ball goes flying into the backcourt, the player is no longer in possesion of the ball which is required to call a timeout.

Red, possesion is not a requirement of OOB, just the last to touch inbounds is all that is necessary. Your argument, while I agree with the end, is not justified. There was no team control when the shot went up, it would be B ball out of bounds yes, but because A was the last to touch it not posses it.... :D

The guide line we have been given to judge control is, no control until they grab it with two hands.

You can't have both ways, on one hand you say "control", then you say "no TO". If he had control, then he gets the TO.

Bart,
You missed my point. You're post said grant the TO while the ball is flying to the backcourt :D. Roundballref made my point while I was typing :)

This sounded like a bang bang play. By the time you blow the whistle, the ball is out of his hands. That would be a hard sale.

If that is your guideline, follow it in your area. And it is the right guideline 90% of the time or more, so it makes the call much simpler to get right.

However, you clearly can achieve control of a basketball without putting a second hand on the ball. So if your "powers that be" do not demand that you have two hands in orer to achieve player control, I would leave it to the official's judgment as to whether the player had control with one hand. And since most of the time they don't have control with one hand, you should err on the side of no control unless you are absolutely positive that the player had control. In this case, it sounds like the official was positive and made a good call.

The post said the player calls it "while throwing" the ball. If you think he has control enough for a bc violation, then he must have control enough to call a TO. Just because you don't blow your whistle until the ball is 30 feet down court doesn't mean it's a bad call. You can't call bc if you wouldn't have given him the TO.

I'm sorry Bart, as I know we've been on opposite sides lately bu that is a completely and totally false guideline. You can easily control the ball with one hand.

Fellas, you can make up out these things that you want to about lack of control. Bottom line is that if he didn't tap or bat it, he passed it. A player can pass a ball without player control and a no player that I know of can bat a ball over 50 feet.

If this was volleyball, would it be a legal touch? No, and in volleyball, a bat is a legal touch. This isn't a bat.

To Hawks Coach and cmathews - thanks for the clarification. You're right - poor analagy.

Am I to assume you would call a double dribble when a player is attempting to gain control, he intercepts a pass by reaching out with one hand and pushes it to the floor, then grabs it with two hands and starts his dribble?

If he grabs the ball and is able to redirect it, and it looks like control to me, then it sure as heck looks like a dribble. While I certainly think it's not going to happen often, I think there are definitely situations where a player can exhibit control with one hand.

If he pushed it to the floor first with one hand then yes, it would be double dribble. If the ball merely hit his hand fell to the floor and he picked it up, I would call that a fumble and allow the dribble. Throwing a similar scenario back at you, what if he intercepts a pass, pushes the ball to the floor then when the ball comes back up he pushes the ball to the floor again, then picks it up with both hands and starts to dribble? Would you not call double dribble? What's the difference between your scenario and that one?

I guess I would have to see the play. If in my judgement, it appears he is attempting to gain control by a Bat, Push, then I might not call a double dribble. I guess the bottom line, is it absolutely has to be clear to the 30th row it was control. I will error on the side of no control. I don't think "push" is necessarily control. At what point does it go from a bat to a push. Rebound, player Bat/Pushes the ball away form the goal, goes to BC ( which you guys already said to go 50 feet, must be control) teammate gets it, beep. violation?

I had an official once tell me he gave a TO while a player was passing it to another. No posession was lost, still team control on the pass. TO granted. You know the rest, the ball was stolen on the pass, sorry coach, team control.

30 or full coach?

thoughts?

Bart

I have to disagree that you need 2 hands on a ball to gain control of a ball.

The orignal post says the player slings the ball not bats or tips. I agree with you that if a player just bats or tips the ball then there maybe no team control. But if the player can sling it 50ft and the ref on the play would have granted a TO if requested I don't know that there is much doubt about control.

I think that your guidline is a bit off. This is not to say that anytime a player touches the ball with one hand he/she has control, but that it is possible and even likely that a player can gain control with one hand.

Yeah, I think that you can only grant the TO if there was <b>player</b> control. The official was wrong.

A timeout can only be granted to a team with player control or during a dead ball. Team control is not sufficient to be able to call a timeout. There must be player control. The ref in your situation got it wrong and paid the price. Unfortunately for the other team, once the ref grants the timout, there's no turning back.

5-8 Art. 3

Which brings up another question. Could you realize your mistake and say "inadvertent whistle" and go to the AP?