Last night while we were comming onto the floor at the 15 minute mark a kid went up for a dunk. Although it was pretty obvious that he could not get that high he still tried and missed.... Would you T this???

if he contacted the rim with his hand, grasped or pulled in it, I would have to say yes you T it up. If he went up and got stuffed by the rim then I think you could let it go.

How did he miss the dunk?

No.

Well, here's the rule. . . FED 10-3-4, A player shall not:

ART. 4 . . . Grasp either basket during the time of the officials' jurisdiction, dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball prior to or during the game or during any intermission until jurisdiction of the officials has ended. This item applies to all team members.

Having said that, I would have been wiping up a wet spot on the floor at the time of the attempted dunk.

He got the ball stuffed by the rim without any grasping or pulling down on the rim.

What would you do?
 

We had a kid in a freshman boys game grab the ring in warm-ups yesterday. The rule book (Fed) is pretty clear about this. But I've heard a lot of officials I respect talk about giving warnings or not seeing pre-game dunks. Why would you, or would you not, enforce this as written?

Re: What would you do?
 

No offense intended here as I am sure these officials are okay if you respect them. But it is because of idiots like that ignore rules or decide not to enforce certain ones that make my job hard when I see it and call it by the rules. We don't have to agree with or like the rules. But when we put those stripes on we are out there to apply them regardless. Too many times we are officiating with different sets of rules. No wonder the coaches and fans are going balistic on us. They are seeing no consistancy. Why you calling a "T" he did it earlier this week and only got a warning or even worse a no-call. Aren't you suppose to give him a warning?

Re: Re: What would you do?
 

Steve, a couple questions here for ya. Player is making a jump stop his feet come down ever so slightly one before the other do you call it? On a free throw the kid in the lower block has their toe on the ground with their heel protruding over the Block, do you call it? I think not seeing this dunk attempt is as much about the timing right at the 15 minute mark as anything. If the kid was on the way to the hoop as the official walked out and he didn't see the official, then don't make a big deal out of it, especially considering he didn't get it accomplished. I have called it once, it was at the regional tournament, and my partner and I discussed it as it happened. We decided to pass on it because it wasn't a good way to start the game. We didn't think anyone really noticed it anyway, then one of his teammates came and asked us if we were going to penalize him, so at that point we did. The point being a reminder is usually best, a T is supposed to make the game better, starting off with free throws and the throw in with a coach with no coaching box, to me doesn't make the game better....I do think each sitution has to be judged on its own merit...

Re: Re: Re: What would you do?
 

Situation 1 - Yes I call it. If I can tell they did not come down together I call it that way. There is a little gray area here if it is close. If I can not tell I give the benefit of the doubt and don't call.
Situation 2 - Yes I call it. Although in 10 years I have never seen this happen nor do I think it would ever happen since for the insuing rebound the player will want to be planted.
Situation 3 - I call it every time. The players know the rules. If it happens while I am on the court I have to call it. The rules do not give me the option. Rule says it is a technical plain as day. Guess after the coach has to sit the whole game that the kids won't be dunking before the game anymore.

Call, it. You may never know who is in that gym watching you. It won't make the coach happy, but he/she and his/her kids should know better, especially in HS. I called it about two weeks ago, was talking to myself how I was glad that I haven't had to call that yet and not 30 seconds later the kid goes up and grabs and hangs on the rim. Coach was mad at me, I would have benched the kid for the game, but he was the first off the bench (maybe he was a starter). This is just stupid on the players part, they have known this rule forever. As I was walking over I heard his teammates yelling at him telling him he was getting a "T". Bottom line, call it every time.

SteveF, if you really do as you say (and I have no reason to doubt you)and call that little bam bam jump stop, I commend you. I have seen the heel over the block several times, never called it, never will. The pregame attempted dunk, I still side with Chuck, that was probably the exact time I was turning to mention something to my partner about the wet spot there on the floor that we need to clean up...and as we pass the basket we will discuss the relative penalties for dunking now that we are in the confines, (loud enough for any interested players to hear LOL)

This is a different situation. If it's obvious, and everybody in the place knows it happened, then yes, of course, you have to call it. But if the kid tries to dunk, can't quite get over the rim and clangs it off the hoop, you wanna call that? Technically, it's a technical. But rather than start the game by pissing everybody off for something that is marginal, let it go and tell the kid to stay away from the rim. JMO.

Ok. I have a question based on what to call and what not to call. I understand that rules are rules but EVERY Official I have every worked a game with (12 years now) has talked about "Game Management" regarding "gray area" whistles. I think every Official at some point in a game "looks" for a call or let's a call go because of game circumstance, ie. Team Fouls way out of balance (10-2) or a travel call against a team getting blown out by 30 points. I guess my point is that not ALL calls are made when they happen. I think that there are times when not making a call is as important to the game as making a call. OK, now I'm open for opinions and responses.

What I was refering to was the obvious, if he doesn't contact the rim or the sitch described here I would probably issue a stern warning and I would have my partner do the same with the opposing team so as to not show bias. I have actually thought about doing this just as preventative officiating as soon as we hit the floor. Any opinions on this?

I have heard of and seen officials "test" their whistle as they near the "visual confines" There is a Gym in our area where the officials room door opens directly onto the court under one of the baskets...Guys that work there usually give a little whistle test just as they open it....

I agree with Chuck, let it go. Poor kid is already embarrased that he missed the dunk and now you are going to whack him. I would talk to him and let him know that he can't do that. Trouble finds me enough as it is, i don't go looking for it anymore ;)

Re: Re: What would you do?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SteveF

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle No offense intended here as I am sure these officials are okay if you respect them. But it is because of idiots...........

You start with "no offense intended" and then move on to "idiots." I hope your officiating is more consistent than your writing.

Starting the game with a "T" is a bad way to get rolling. If it's unavoidable fine, but it sounds like the officials could have easily passed on this one.

When you first start officiating, the rules are black and white. The more you ref, the more they start to gray up (at least for the most skilled and successful officials).

Z

[Edited by zebraman on Feb 4th, 2004 at 02:47 PM]

Official to coach: "You know coach, I just saw 34 go up for what could be viewed as an attempt to dunk. I'm not positive, but if I thought for sure he was trying to dunk the ball, I'd have to T him up."
Let the coach deal with it unless he at least gets some rim.

Re: Re: What would you do?
 

Better watch who you call an idiot.:mad: I suppose you blow your whistle on the jump ball that doesn't go up at perfect right angle to the floor as well, huh? Why start the game with a bad situation if it can be avoided. If it's a clear dunk, yes, but questionable, no. Imagine explaining this to the coach: Coach, we're going to start with a T because A2 (or A8 probably) dunked during warmups. By the way, you have to be seated all game. Coach: He can't even get over the rim, how can he dunk?!!!!???? You can't call that!!!! Get the picture.

Mregor

Re: Re: Re: What would you do?
 

Z, don't you mean, ..."at least for the most skilled and successful idiots". Sorry, couldn't resist. :D

Mregor

"On a free throw the kid in the lower block has their toe on the ground with their heel protruding over the Block"

Can someone tell me where it states this is a violation?
I see this all the time and i have never in my life saw it called

Ok thanks for your imput... Here is what I did

When the player came running around to my side of the court on their lay up drills I asked him what his # was. He asked me why I needed his number and I told him that I just needed it before we could start the game. He said 53 and that was the end of it although I think I nonintentionally scared the crap out of him as I then went to go check the book and have our meeting.

After all that was done I told his coach that # 53 came awfull close to getting a T for trying to dunk and thought he should be aware of it.

No T was givin but he did get an earfull from his coach

Ok thanks for your imput... Here is what I did

When the player came running around to my side of the court on their lay up drills I asked him what his # was. He asked me why I needed his number and I told him that I just needed it before we could start the game. He said 53 and that was the end of it although I think I nonintentionally scared the crap out of him as I then went to go check the book and have our meeting.

After all that was done I told his coach that # 53 came awfull close to getting a T for trying to dunk and thought he should be aware of it.

No T was given but he did get an earfull from his coach

Rule 9.1.9 (nfhs) ..."a player occupying a marked lane space may not have either foot beyond the 'vertical plane' of the outside edge of any lane boundary, or beyond the vertical plane of any edge of the space..."

But, yeah, it's not really called, is it?

For the above actions the only reply I could come up with is wow! 15 minutes and we are on the court. Next thing you know someone will need the announcer to announce the officials entrance.
Bobbymo did the right thing IMHO. If the kid missed the dunk like he said I would have did what he did or told him "you know if you would have made that dunk we would have to start the game with a T." It is February and there are officials who overlook something like this? I'm not going to call anyone names but it does make it harder for all officials. Also, we can't say "well in my area" these teams travel a lot and you could have just made it hard for me this summer! Some things are in the grey area and somethings are not. A small travel here and there I can see but a dunk in pregame. This really isn't a judgement call. Anyone could be in the stands watching you and we must handle business. This isn't really a part of "game management."

that was exactly my point, that there are several situations where no calls are the best calls, and it doesn't make us all idiots :D

Coach......By the way, you have to be seated all game.
 

Maybe that pre-game T is not such a bad idea after all

The Whistle - The reason "good officials" are considered good officials and advance to the next level of play is GAME MANAGEMENT. You have to be able to understand the situation and determine what is the appropriate action (violation, foul, T, no call, etc.). What you have described - looking to balance out lopsided foul counts and "killing the loser w/ kindness" - are two examples of good officiating. Coaches may not want to hear that, but experienced, veteran officials talk about it all the time. Despite the "black and white rules" of the rule books, there are plenty of gray areas that call for judgement - that's when you as an official can excell. For example - take an extra second or two before administering a throw-in when you see a sub on his way to the table to report; when calling a foul w/ mulitple defensive players involed - give it to the kid with the least amount of fouls (which means you need to have an idea of fouls counts -especially on the best players on the floor); don't bail an offensive player out of a bad situation he created by calling a foul on the defense; etc. I'm not talking about swallowing the whistle completely, just exercising good judgement in the greay areas.

If a kid dunks and no one sees it - pass.