Boys varsity game, tied in overtime...clock winding down with the home team working for the last shot. I'm working T and the shot goes up from my primary, missed, but the defender slams into the still airborne shooter and knocks him to the groung...TWEET!, 2 shots with 2.6 seconds on the clock.

I turn around fully expecting to see the visiting coach approaching halfcourt with an angry look on his face, of course he is along with sharing his opinion of my call. I extend my hand in his direction and say "get back coach", report the foul and indicate 2 shots. He wants an explanation and I say "airborne shooter coach, your kid hit him hard" to which he responds "that's f-ing BS!" I calmly put my whistle in my mouth, blow it, and say give my mechanic and point toward the bench, walking away to administer the FT's while he's throwing a few more choice words away from me as he's walking back to his bench. I'm at the far baseline from him while the home team sinks 3 or the 4, then inbounds from halfcourt, gets fouled and then makes 1 of 2 to go up by 4 points with 1.5 to go...game out of reach now.

From the my end of the court he's yelling to his stat person "make sure we have his name in the book, he's going to get it", etc. Then we have a dead ball with 0.1 sec left, and he's pointing at me saying "I'm going to find you later" . Obviously the thought of tossing him runs through my mind, but I'm a huge confrontation would've ensued, so I elect just to get the game over with and ignore the fool and we get out of the gym without any incident.

Here's my question... what would you guys (or ladies) do?

I got home shortly thereafter and called my commissioner to report the incident, stating that I didn't toss him, but he did make some threats and I wanted to make a formal complaint.

you handled it perfectly...nice job, maybe write down what happened in case someone needs to know, while it is fresh in your memory

Rehab,
I don't think I would have passed on the second T. When he threatens you, that requires an immediate T with an ejection. Upon the ejection you submit a report the the High School League and he sits another game. By not ejecting him, he could do this to another official in the next game.
JMHO
By the way, what did your partners have to say on the matter and why didn't one of them run him?

1) If Coach V had just said: "That's B.S.!" Then I would have charged him with an unsportsmanlike conduct. But Coach V used an F-bomb, and that is a flagrant technical foul in my opinion, and Coach V should have been disqualified and ejected on a single flagrant technical foul.

2) Since you only charged him with a techncial foul for unsportsmanlike conduct, I would like to know what your partner was doing while Coach V was throwing more words at you on his way back to his team's bench. If Coach V was still running his mouth at you, then your partner should have been the "good cop" so to speak and explain to Coach V that if he doesn't cool down he is going to get his second technical foul from him and not you.

3) I am not sure where you are on the court in relation to Team V's bench when Coach V was yelling to his stat person, but if his remarks were meant to show you up, your partner needed to step up and take care of business with Coach V.

4) Dead ball with 0.1 sec and Coach V yells at you: "I am going to find you later!" That is a flagrant technical foul itself and either you or your partner, whoever was closer should have gave to him. The time on the clock has no bearing on the situtation. Coach V comments can be and should be interpreted as a threat of physical violence.

5) Coach V should have been tossed from the game. But his comments with respect to finding you later still need to be reported to the IdahoHSAA and you should have made a police report of it immediately after the game while still in the officials' dressing room. And I still would make a police report.

You beat me to the punch. After you gave the stop sign and the T your partner should have had your back. since you went
across court after the fouls and heard it your partner surely heard it to and should have finished the job.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought my partner could've helped....

He said as we got off the court that he thought I did a great job handling the situation, avoiding a confrontation, and keeping my cool. I know he heard what I the coach was saying, and was kind of hoping he could at least tell the coach to put a sock in it or give him another

Sharing a lesson learned
 

This coach's conduct is something that needs to be corralled ASAP. I agree that your partner should have assessed the 2nd T while you were administering the FTs.

There was another opportunity to give him the message when he openly made the threats. Again, your partner lacked the fortitude to assess the long overdue T.
================================================== ========
Personal Note:

We have a local coach who has a reputation for acting very similar to the coach in your situation. Three years ago, I witnessed him first-hand as a visiting coach in my first varsity game (as the Referee). My mentor worked this game with me as the U.

Throughout the game the visiting coach made the "nickel and dime" comments, i.e. "travel", "block", et al.

Fast-forward to end of game situation:

I should have T'd the visiting coach when he continued to "vent" while my partner administered the (double-bonus) FTs for a call he made w/ 7 secs remaining in the 2-pt game.

A1 makes first FT. The second FT bounced wide to my side, A2 rebounds and is fouled on the put-back. Coach loudly howls "terrible" call. My partner should have given him the "universal" stop sign, etc...

A2 makes both FT and home team goes on to win. Visiting coach is coming onto the court after me and berating me for the "Bullsh**" call. The game manager physically intervened to allow my partner and I to get out of the gym.

Regrettably, I did not file any documentation with either the police or the state association about this incident. Needless to say, I would have handled it differently today.

In hindsight, I was a relatively new official who did not have what it took (at that time) to take charge of that situation. It was a lesson learned the hard way, but I have had opportunities to "redeem" myself. Unfortunatedly, they were not with this same "coach." Maybe next year? :D

While your partner certainly should have helped, and I would have expected such from my partner. I'd say in hindsight that you should have gone ahead and given him the 2nd T yourself. He was practically begging for it, and the final comments should have been an automatic.
I agree with MTD on this.

aw

There's a saying we have in baseball -- if there isn't an ejection then you really didn't have a problem. If you're reporting something this flagrant, there'd better be a corresponding penalty given on the field.

That isn't always the case in basketball (we have technicals and not just ejections), but by not penalizing what was a direct threat you weaken anything you submit at this point. Call the flagrant technical, finish the game, and THEN file your reports.

Ref n rehab
 

What district are you in? Dist 3 here.

Flagrant tech on the initial comment, possibly, but I'm not necessarily sold on that. The T was probably enough, but everyone has their own standard with respect to profanity.

As for the second incident, which consisted of not stopping and threatening, you could easily go with the flagrant. A simple second T would also eject, but I think it is important once there was a threat to note that this was a flagrant anyway - and it's the appropriate call. And it clearly would have been best coming from your partner - he booted this one more than you did.

Since it was 0.1 and the game was decided (i.e., shooting a T wasn't going to change the outcome), going the way you did so as not to further inflame the situation may have been right. It may look better on the post game report that you weren't in a T-fest with this coach, that you were still able to exrcise self control and judgment when he was clearly not able to do so. Of course, he probably will be coaching the next game, which is the downside of not bouncing him. But a report to your superiors may result in further action, especially if your partner backs you now.

This is close to a flagrant T from me. Good call though - it's definetely a T. Sounds like the shooter was fouled and the appropriate call was made. Of course he's not going to like it, in the dying seconds of the game. He went overboard and was dealt with.

At this point, I have a flagrant technical foul. Threatening an official is a flagrant T. Even though a 2nd T would reseult in an ejection, a flagrant T is still warranted. I would never downgrade simply because it is his 2nd T.

However, where were your Ps during all of this? One of them (Or the other one could have gone over to the coach and tried to subdue the sitch.

The threat he made should be written down and submitted to the game mgmt or your local executive or however you would normally handle this. Possibly even a police report.

Again, a flagrant T if not given one already. If he said a comment like this after the 2nd T, I would warn the administrator that the game may be forfeited if he keeps it up, and that the police will be called. Also, a full report for uttering a threat should be filed with the police.

But again, your Ps could have taken care of this. You took care of business at the beginning, so they should, or when it's apparent that they're not going to, you should take care of the rest of business.

What did your commissioner say?

[Edited by JugglingReferee on Feb 4th, 2004 at 05:31 PM]

Coach:

I have to disagree with you about the first technical. Coach V's F-bomb is an automatic flagrant technical foul. The threat of physical violence is also a flagrant technical foul even though there is 0.1 seconds left in the game. Anything less threatens the integrity of the game and the sport.

MTD, Sr.

Mark
In your mind, the F bomb may get you tossed. I have yet to read a rule or case that specifically cites the F word as an ejection. Please direct me to that rule/case so I may be better educated. Until you can, I will continue to allow people to make their own judgments about whether this is the little t or the BIG T.

Love your reading of the rules with respect to second sitch- but this is not about the rules or the integrity of the game/sport (which I DON'T agree he threatened by failing to award a T). The calling or not calling of anything with .1 seconds left is best left to the discretion of the person on the spot at the time. The mess can be addressed later in a post game report, but nothing says he MUST assess the second T if he can get the ball in play, kill the clock, and get out of the gym. There are clearly reasons to do so, and reasons not to do so. He has to make that call at the time by himself, and none of your after action second guessing can change that.

I won't tell him what he should have done. I will help him consider various ways he could deal with this sitch - and each has advantages and disadvantages. He can choose what he thinks best fit the circumstances he faced that night. Or he can just be wrong as viewed from your seat.

NFHS R4-S19-A4: A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. I may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

If dropping an F-bomb (especially when the word is being yelled directly at an official) is not a very good example of vulgar or abusive conduct, then what is vulgar or abusive conduct. In fact is is both vulgar and abusive conduct in the posted play in this thread.

With regard to the Coach V's actions with 0.1 seconds left in the game. That was a threat of physical violenc directed toward and official. The game was not over and such conduct needs to be penalized. By not penalizing it and then righting a report to the StateHSAA about Coach V's conduct, makes it very difficult for the StateHSAA to take diciplinary action against Coach V.

NW Ref, District III here as well...

Thanks for the comments everyone. My chief concern at the time was keeping my composure and not look like I had a personal vendetta against this coach, obviously hindsight and your helpful responses show me I shouldn't have let his actions go unpunished at that time.

I don't know if I agree the argument that an F bomb equates to an automatic ejection, but with the spectacle he was making as he said things, I can see that tossing him right away would have been the best thing to do.

Just spoke with the commissioner BTW and of course he said, "you should've tossed him." Sounds like the AD at this school has already received complaints about the coach and his behavior and doesn't need much more of an excuse to ensure he doesn't come back next year. I'm writing a letter about the events of the other night and sounds like he will be disciplined.

Again, thanks for the insight! Seems like I always have to make a mistake once before I learn how to handle it the next game...ain't this reffing thing great? :)

I couldn't even finish reading this thread before I replied. The coach should have been tossed even if there was .1 on the clock.
Now, doesn't caps mean yelling when you type?

IF YOUR PARTNER CALLS A T ON A COACH DO NOT GO TO THAT COACH AND CONSOLE HIM. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO EXPLAIN WHY HE GOT A T, YOU DIDN'T GIVE IT TO HIM ANYWAY!

This happened to me last night. My partner gave a T to a coach and the coach wanted to talk to me. I was administering the free throws and he was like "ref come here." You know what I told him from the endline? "Coach, sit down." At that point that was all the communication I should have had with him. I wish my partner would go over to stroke, console, placate (if that is how you spell it) or do anything to appease a coach after he has received a T. If you are doing a 3-person game the best thing to do as the trail is step about 10 feet onto the court and watch the players with your back to the coach. Think of what message it sends to everyone and especially your partner for you to go over there to have a up close with the coach in that situation. NO NO NO!!!

Holy signatures batman, I didn't even see who posted the above until I was done with my post!!!!!!!!!

[Edited by tomegun on Feb 5th, 2004 at 06:12 AM]

Spoken like a true coach. Coach V should have been in the locker room waiting for his team to come in period. I got burned at a huge camp because I didn't toss a coach. I was thinking "well I gave him one T." That is no longer an unwritten rule in my game. I would not give a coach two machine gun, quick, Ts but I have no problem giving a coach 2 and sending him. Everyone has their buttons and I have to swallow hard and agree with MTD and say I probably would have just sent him with the first one. We can all call the obvious stuff but what sets us apart is the controversy. You should have tossed him and had the commish on the phone before you cranked your car.

I don't think that the coaches dropping of the "F" bomb in this situation was a personal attack on you as an official, thus not warranting a flagrant T. On the other hand, if it gets personal to where he says something like, "you're an F!@#$ing something", then I would have to leaned towards a flagrant technical. I think that the standard technical foul was the appropriate call here, which you assessed. I feel a lot of coaches just get caught up in the moment of the game, and especially this one to where is was a close game. I think that by tossing him because he says thats F!@#$ing Bulls!@# to one of your calls, makes a travesty of the game. T him up, which is what you did, and get on with the game. Your partner screwed up however, by not going over to the coach following your T, and enforcing the seat belt rule. This might have helped you in the fact that your partner might have been able to help difuse the situation. However, when he made the threatening comment to you, you and your partner made a travesty of the game by not assessing the second technical foul on the coach and ejecting him. Also, like others have said, if you felt threatened in any way, you should have filed a police report on him. And at the very least, you would have had to file a report with your state activities association, explaining his unsporting and unethical behavior, to which they could have taken action against him. Don't let these things go un-noticed! You have to take care of business when it's warranted. I feel that this is why we as officials have such a hard time enforcing sportsmanship in the game today, because we allow players and coaches alike to get away with unsporting behavior like this. Don't be affraid to enforce the rules. It will make the game better for all of us involved, and I guarantee you that this coach would have also learned from his mistake after having had to sit out his next game. He probably would have also gained a little bit more respect for you as an official, following this ejection.

I am not sure why this is s
"spoken like a true coach." I am NOT defending the coach, nor am I suggesting that his conduct is not fitting of an immediate dismissal. I have NEVER behaved in this manner, nor would I. I do not condone it.

I am speaking like a member of the military who has been second guessed after action about what I should have done by people who never saw the situation I was in. I think it is easy to fall back on rules, when actual situations may lead you to a different conclusion at that time.

And since you want to draw inferences about what I said not based on its content, but rather who and what I am, I feel compelled to add:

Spoken like a ref who won't listen to anything a coach has to say because he is a coach and the ref already has decided to ignore all coaches.

I deal with some refs like that.

options
 

I have a question? Was the coach very vocal during the entire game and if so was there any attempt to get on top of the situation?
Sometimes if we don't take care of it early it will have a tendency to get worse as the game goes on and blow up in the end.

I agree that if my partner has a problem many times it is better if I take some of the heat off of him. This will work if I am a strong official and have confidence in my abilities. Double barrels have twice the knockdown power!

Even though you choose not to eject, you may want to file a game report anyway and creat discussion with those who are responsible for these issues.

It is not an easy issue and you handled it the best that you could in a very difficult situation. Ignoring or ejecting it is not an easy choice. I think becuase as we all know we are nice guys we have a tendency to finish last no matter what we decide.

I'm in the military too and that does not matter one bit in this situation. Basketball is basketball and the coach should have been ejected. Now the coach probably thinks he can do the same thing to the next official. Is that fair to the next official. I made my statement "spoken like a coach" because you did defend him when you said he shouldn't have given him the second T. Someone should have done it! As far as your comment about me not listening to a coach, I go into every game with professionalism. If I did your game and you came up and told me who you were it wouldn't matter to me one bit because I don't know how you act as a coach and I'm not there to worry about that. The bottom line that gets lost in all of this is we are the caretakers of the game. If everything stayed legal and the ball never went out of bounds we wouldn't be needed. We are not there for you to yell at us nor are we there to make smart comments to coaches. When that interaction stays respectful then there is no problem. A coach is there to coach and we are there to ref. If a coach says something like this coach said that is outside MY boundries for acceptable behavior. Don't you know that the best coaches and refs are great communicators? The best coaches rarely, if ever, say or do something to come close to getting tossed. I don't go into a game looking to T a coach up. I don't care about the coach that much. I have listened to you and I think you are wrong but I can see why you would say what you said so I can take it.

tomegun
You obviously do not read what I write. I never said he should or should not have given him a T - I clearly said that we could not definitively give an answer to that without having been there in his situation.

I said that by rule he clearly should give him a T. I also said that he may have wanted to consider his personal situation and whether or not giving the second T was going to make it worse. With 0.1 left, it would not affect the game outcome, so if he felt it would make matters worse to T, I could understand him not doing it.

This has absolutely nothing to do with me being or not being a coach. You need to take the time to read my full argument and understand my reasoning, rather than assuming that I am arguing a certain point because I am defending coaches or taking a coach's perspective. This is the second thread in which you have chosen to completely ignore my line of reasoning and eliminate further discussion with the"he's just a coach, we expect nothing less from him" type of reasoning. I think if you read my posts you would understand that I do not just take a parochial coach perspective.

As a coach, I have rarely heard obscenity directed at a ref from the bench (I'm not saying never, but very rarely). More often from the stands and the players, as well as from coaches to players. I have NEVER used profane language toward my players or my referees in over 400 games of basketball coaching and countless practices.

So from this coach's perspective, my opponent who is acting like a total idiot should be gone. But I won't object with 0.1 seconds left and my team safely leading and holding the ball, if you choose to ignore the bozo and get the game over with. More than anything else, I want to get my team off the floor and out of this crazy gym anyway.

Before I go any further in this thread I should state that I have been on constructions sites all of my life. Some of my best friends will tell you that my language can be colorful at times. Having been on constructions sites all of my life has probably made my language more colorful that most people. If you hair is straight, I can make it curly. If you hair is curly, I can make it straight. If you have hair, I can make it fall out. If you are bald, I can make you grow it. I think everyone is gettin my point. None-the-less, I am very careful about where I use my colorful language and around whom I use my colorful language. I will defend to the death every person's First Amendment rights and will fight tirelessly against censorship. However, civility, good manners, and good manners dictates that there are times when one must use good judgement as to the type of language one uses. I am not advocating the everyday use of the F-bomb, but there are far more instances when using the F-bomb is nothing more the vulgar conduct, than coloful language.

If one reads NFHS R4-S19-A4, one sees the vulgar conduct is a flagrant technical foul. Coach V's language was directed toward a game official and his use of the F-bomb was vulgar conduct and therefore, should have been charged with a technical foul.

I agree with with a few things here.

1. The unsporting T was prbably appropriate. The comments weren't personal (at this point). You only have a frustrated coach that likely lost the game. Your T probably puts the game out of reach. Punishment enough and you made your point that you won't tolerate that behavior. A Flagrant T will do more to incite the fans.

2. Ok. Fine. Your partner failed you. That sucks. Still, you have to toss on the threatening remarks. Sounds like everyone in the gym would know why he got this one. Moreover, a flagrant T is more than warranted here. This will be backed up by your game report. Coach deservingly misses his next contest. And if you ever see him again, he knows you will take care of business.

Nice job the way you handled this though. Your thoughts make sense. We have the benefit of time to gather our thoughts.

I do not agree with your Item (1). The F-bomb is vulgar conduct and to make it worse it was directed toward the game official. I do not care how frustrated the coach is, he dropped an F-bomb and he directed his remarks against the offical who made the call and while questioning his judgement. Remember that the rules difine vulgar conduct as a flagrant technical foul.

First I will say that for me personally the F-Bomb is very vulgar to me. Now, If the comment was that is F@#@ing B@#@#. I would have given a T. I don't think I would have assessed a Flagrant T. If it was the F-bomb would have been followed by "you". I would be sending the coach to the showers. It all depends on the situation. I may have acted differently if I was doing the game. It is easy in the forum to say what you would do. In the game is totally different unless you are a robot!

AK ref SE

Totally agree with MTD on this. Who are his comments directed to? They were obviously directed to the official and about his judgement. They most certainly are vulgar. As Mark said, "If this is not vulgar, what is???"

All that said, would I have issued the appropriate flagrant T at that time? I'm sitting here trying to visualize me being there and I can honestly say, "I'm not sure". I can actually see me giving a simple T at that point, when I probably should have gone with the flagrant and sent him to the showers. So I definitely empathize with Ref in Rehab.

Most certainly the threat draws another T and this time not the 'simple one'. He's gone. Obviously, he's got his second direct (automatic ejection) but his second is also deemed flagrant by me and I'm making sure it is in the book as such--because when I make my necessary post-game reports--I want everything very clearly understood by all what his actions were.

Ref in Rehab, overall I think you did as well as you could. You, like all of us, learn from each game. What you have done is given us an opportunity to learn from your experiance. Hopefully, when we are now faced with similar situations, we will be better equipped to handle more appropriately.

I would not want my partner to go baby sit the coach. If the coach doesn't sit down, then my partner should inform him he is to remain seated. If coach wants to talk, No coach not now and walk away. You are still being respectful and sending a message that his actions were unacceptable to all officials.

I get the feeling that some of you think that if my partner whacked a coach, I am going over and console the coach:

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!

When an official whacks a head coach the following things have to happen in following order:

1) He needs to get away from the coach.
2) He needs to get with his partner(s) and let them know
what happened.
3) While he is reporting the technical foul, another
member of the officiating crew needs to go to the coach
and do the following in this order:
In a professional manner and tone:
a) Inform the coach, why he received a technical
foul, be brief and do not discuss the foul with
the coach.
b) Inform the coach that he has lost his coaching
box privileges.
c) Inform the coach that he will be disqualified
and ejected if he receives another direct
technical foul.
This should take no longer that it will take for the
calling official to report the foul and make sure the
direct technical foul is counted against the team's
seven and ten for a half and to get a shooter from
the shooting team.
4) Shoot the free throws and administer the throw-in.
5) Only bad things happen when the ball is dead, and dead
ball efficiency is important when a head coach receives
a technical foul. The best thing that one can do is to
get the ball back into play without sacrificing
efficiency.

Mark, why does the partner need to tell the coach why he got a T? 1) he knows why he got the T. 2) the calling official reports it to the table. Also, why is it necessary to tell him what happens if he gets another T?

Preventative officiating. The idea is not to bait a coach, but if he is going to get a second technical foul it should hopefully not be from the official that gave him the first one. Lets face it, when a coach gets a technical foul the official who gave it to him is now the object of that coach's affections. I have yet to see a coach who immediately turns around and goes and sits down on his team's bench the instant he received the technical. A coach will always want to "talk" to the official who gave him the technical and that is not good.

Watch a college (men's or women's), NBA, or WNBA game. Whenever a coach receives a technical, another official heads off the coach and gets him back to his bench. You may not believe it but many coaches do not have a clue as to why they received a technical foul. Most coaches beleive that because they have just have received a technical foul, it gives them the right to have an upclose and personal conversation with the official that whacked him. The job of the other official is to turn the coach around and remind him that he does not want to continue down the path that he wants to travel.

MTD, wrong, wrong, wrong!

Yes, you do want to get with your partners after a T but that is to make sure you know what they got and know what you are going to do. Shoot two, ball at half court or point of interruption and so forth. This will also help calm the calling official down. Yes you do need to tell the coach that he must sit. Someone needs to tell him and depending on the situation sometimes it doesn't matter who. I will not, I repeat will not tell a coach why my partner gave him a T. If you are my partner you are a big boy and you can tell him yourself if you so desire. Other than that a up close and personal with a coach looks bad to the other coach whether it is a T or anything else. You have nothing to gain by going over to an upset coach and telling him he has to sit down and why he got the T. Also, why would you have to tell him he will be ejected if he gets another one? To calm him down? Sounds like consoling to me. This does not fall under the preventive officiating category to me. I'm going to do some preventive officiating mostly between the lines.
Nothing but bad things can happen during a dead ball? Don't you know there are some inexperienced officials that could be reading your posts and you say something like this? If I'm taking what you are trying to convey out of context please explain but in general this statement is about as false as false can get. You can do a lot of good things during a dead ball. Dead ball situations can help your game go so much smoother!

Good post (nm)
 

Good post.

You secretly desire to be a hairdresser? ;)

This I can accept. This is part of having him seated. He won't get any explanations from me. I keep it short and simple.

I also don't think its fair to compare NBA/WNBA coaches/games with HS coaches/games. I don't have a clue what the guidelines are for NBA/WNBA. However, I would guess they are different.

Re: Good post (nm)
 

Who made the good post?

MTD, Sr.

Six years ago, I was officiating a NAIA women's game. The home head coach was the dean of the conference coaches. I had never before officiated her or her team. During the course of the first half, it was obvious that she was not happy with the job that my partner and I were doing, so much so that about half way throught the first half I had to give her the stop sign and a warning.

About two-thirds away into the half, from the L, opposite the table position, I called a foul on one of her players, a shooting foul. I moved out to the center of the court, clearing the players, but staying on the far side of the center circle to report the foul. Coach H(ome Team) stepped out of the coaching box onto the court to complain about my call. Technical foul. At this point my partner who was L, table-side did nothing. The coach, upset about the foul on her player and now receiving a technical foul, started coming at me.

Everybody in the gym, except my wife (but that is another story), knew that I had just whacked Coach H. I started back pedaling and looking for my partner to intercept Coach H, but he just stood there never moving. He had plenty of time to intercept Coach H, but did not. I put up a stop sign but Coach H just blew right through it. The result was a second direct technical foul on Coach H from me and her disqualification and ejection from the game.

Could this second technical foul been avoided? Yes. How? The off official should have headed off Coach H after the first technical foul. If Coach H was going to get a second technical foul, it should not have been from me but from my partner. I have three officiating friends that evaluate Division I officials and all three of them could not understand why my partner did not intercept Coach H.

My partner and I talked about it at half time. He did not know why either except to say that he thought she was going to stop once she got the first technical foul. Thinking that she was going to stop was a big mistake.

While I do not have a problem with an official taking care of business, to the point that a coach has to be ejected, then that official has to take care of business. This ejection was not my first (it was my first at the college level, and I had been officiating college ball for 23 years at the time). But, our jobs as officials are to try to prevent situations from escalating if at all possible. This was an ejection that should not have happened.

I am not saying that I am the perfect official, far from it, but a technical foul is a major breakdown in the game, and things must be done in attempt major breakdowns from going from bad to worse.


Tomegun:

Read my post below to Bart, about what to say and to handle a coach who has just received a technical foul. Dead ball efficiency is important. And yes, bad things happen during dead ball situations. As officials, we want the ball to be put back into play as efficiently as possible. When the ball is in play, the coach now has to turn his attention back to coaching his team (hopefully), at not at the officials. And yes, I hope that inexperienced officials read my post and will learn that dead ball efficiency is very important, and that the sooner the ball can be put back into play the better.

Fred Horgan, a past president of IAABO, who represents Canada on the FIBA Techncial Board, has a great lecture about dead ball efficiency. I do not know off hand which IAABO Board to which he belongs, but I am sure that one of our Canadian members of this forum and get information to you as to how to contact Fred. I am sure that Fred has put to paper his lecture and he might possible send you a copy of it. Of course hearing Fred presenting it in person is a treat that just cannot be beat. But his thought on dead ball efficiency might be very helpful to you.

MTD, Sr.

Bart:

You are absolutely correct. Keep is short and simple. All he needs to know is that he received a technical foul for unsportsmanlike conduct and or violating the coaching box rule, and he has lost his coaching box privileges. Reminding him that he could be ejected if he receives a second direct technical foul, is not a threat but should be viewed as a second warning to the coach. No one wants to have to write a game report for a coach ejection if it can be prevented Short and to the point. As I said in my post, all of this should not take more that 45 seconds or so.

And one other thing that should be discussed by the officials during their short conference is which team is going to shoot free throws, how many free throws, which basket the free throws are going to be attempted, and who is going to administer the free throws and the ensueing throw-in so as to keep the official that called the technical foul on the far side of the court away from the coach that received the technical foul. Sometimes, the coach's actions require that this type of information is discussed after he is escorted to his bench.

But lets face it a technical foul on a coach is never a fun thing.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,I understand what you are saying. I think probably we are on the same page. I don't know about 45sec. I can see maybe 10sec. But, your 45 sec might be my 10 sec. bottom line, what ever works for the officiating team.

MTD, man have you changed your tune! No thanks on the "lecture" I have been mentored by some of the best current officials in the country and I know the power of what we can do as officials during dead ball. Maybe you need a refresher since you previously said "only bad things can happen during a dead ball." Now you are saying what occurs during a dead ball is important? Is that your final answer?
You are saying too much to a coach during the administration of a T that your partner gave him. If I was your partner I would have a problem with you for that at halftime or after the game. Anything that takes longer than "coach you must remain seated for the rest of the game" it too long and you will not change my feelings about that. Plus you don't have to get in the coaches personal space when you say that so you can say it in passing. I would not want to wait for the coach to sit down because that will give him more of a reason to argue his case with me. A conversation with a coach like you describe would not sit well with me. Period.

Ok. I agree with your post. Except... is a Technical a major breakdown in a game. No. I don't think so. Coaches and players react to things without thinking. Sometimes a T is warranted and is an excellent tool in officiating.

Does this statement mean that every game with a technical foul had at least one major breakdown?

Your posts are generally very coherent. Was this statement a little hasty?

tomegun:

I haven't changed my tune at all. What I am trying to have with you is a intelligent conversation. I think that you have forgotten is that this forum exists so that officials can have intelligent learned discussions about the rules and mechanics, and how to apply them to plays in the real world; not for tirads against other officials on this board.

MTD, Sr.

MTD, I'm not trying to have a "tirade" (is that correct?) against you. If we were to do a game together I don't think we would have a problem at all. But if you went and babysat a coach after I T'd him up we would have a big problem! If I T him let me explain if I want to. If you want to simply tell him he has to remain seated I'm fine with that. There is no reason for you to say anything more. Doing that will make a coach think he has your ear and I'm a jerk. Now, I will T a kid up in a second if it is warranted but I can only recall giving a coach a T in a rec game this year. If I T a coach up it will be obvious as to why and no further explaination is needed. That's just my point of view and if you think about it I don't see where the problem is. The coach is an adult and if he values the ability to coach the next game he will calm down. If not and it goes that far then the coach will be gone. And, as I've stated before I have no problem giving the second T. I've been burned by not doing it and that won't happen again. Keep in mind it is not in my nature to just go into a game whacking coaches.
Now as far as your comments about dead ball I will give your quotes from two different posts in this thread:

"Only bad things happen when the ball is dead, "

and

And yes, I hope that inexperienced officials read my post and will learn that dead ball efficiency is very important, and that the sooner the ball can be put back into play the better.


That is a straight cut and paste. The first paste is false, false, false. You said it and I think the responsible thing to do for the benefit of the younger officials is to retract it.
You went on to suggest that I look at a lecture from one of your name droppees. Your quote "But his thought on dead ball efficiency might be very helpful to you." You were officiating before I was a thought and if he was one of your mentors that makes him "experienced." I'm no rookie. Maybe your friend needs to listen to my thoughts because coaches and players have changed. I can see you getting easily manipulated and sucked into some crap by one of these coaches out here now. What was done 10 years ago does not always apply to 2004.

Man, I just read one of your posts again. I just have to ask this, what makes you think that your bleep don't stink? There are many guys on this board that give insight and disagree but they don't come across as pompous as you. I'm sorry, but I just managed a big-time game. We had a good crew that worked well together and some things about officiating make me sick. Politics by people who can't practice what they preach but offer some advice contrary to those at a higher level that do officiate is one of those things. Are you still an active official?


[Edited by tomegun on Feb 6th, 2004 at 10:23 PM]

Luke: You have so much anger in you. If you do not let the Force be with you, the Dark Side will claim you. Oops, I am sorry, I thought I was chatting with Luke Skywalker and not tomegun.

tomegun: You have so much anger in you. Have you thought of seeking anger management counseling. As I have stated in the past, one the purposes of this forum is to have civilized and learned discussions about rules and mechanics and how to apply them in the real world. You seem to have forgotten that. If you find that you cannot conduct yourself in such a manner I would suggest that you consider not posting until you can.

MTD, Sr.

To all:

Why this thread went on and digressed to the point it has is beyond me. The original thread was posted to guage other officials' "breaking point" concerning bad behavior.

First: Ref_in_Rehab responded to several of the ideas and made his own conclusion concerning how he would handle the situation in the future. He accepted the constructive criticism and is ready to apply his new-found knowledge and said so. This my friends should have been the end to the thread.

Mark: as moderator this is your responsibility.

Secondly: The concensus of the group is that the calling official needs to give signal, communicate with partners, report to table and Walk Away. One exception was tomegun who wants to call-em and explain-em. I am now speaking as a former evaluator and supervisor: no matter what you say to the irate coach to explain the call you can NEVER prove to anyone that you did not bait the coach into a second T and ultimate ejection. If you have a problem with your partner watching your back during a difficult situation as a threat to your "manliness" I would bet your communication to them in other situations is lacking. The reason we have partners is so we don't have to endure the stress alone. Watching your back protects you as well by deflecting the object of the coach's wrath elsewhere.

Thirdly: Both Mark and Tomegun have made personal attacks on the other. Luke Skywalker? Bleep don't stink? Namedropping? Still an active official? Nitpicking a comment? You both should be ashamed. Bob Jenkins (another moderator no less) tried to add some levity by saying Mark secretly wanted to be a hairdresser. A great line that was bypassed completely by both. By the way if the officials maintain dead ball efficiency the likelyhood of bad things happening diminishes greatly.

Finally: I will agree that this last point should also be a topic of a new thread. I don't know how many times I have read posts asking for rules citation/case book citations for a particular situation only to have all posts to the thread give their answer yet no citation. Why? If we all would reply with corresponding citations from our rulebook, casebook, officials manual, handbook for officials, then maybe we wouldn't feel so inferior like Tomegun feels to DeNucci thinking him to be pompous. Tomegun said he could probably work OK with DeNucci but I doubt it. My only defense for this statement is if they both resorted to personal slams in their posts to each other gives me no evidence the contrary would occur when face to face.

Flagrant T and both of you are out of here. (I wanted to put a winking smilely face here but not sure how to add icons yet)

[Edited by Daryl H. Long on Feb 7th, 2004 at 12:07 AM]

To Daryl:

Go preach to someone else. If people want to express their views, well, that's the whole idea of this forum.Who are you anyway to tell people what to post or not to post? Or to put it another way, why exactly do you think that your "opinion" should have any more credibility than any other poster?

Lighten up!! And please note that this isn't a personal attack. It's just my opinion that censoring this board is none of your business.

To Daryl:

Go preach to someone else.
Lighten up!!
...censoring this board is none of your business. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry I usurped your authority as censor.

Just for the record, I could work with MTD. Whatever is said on this board is said due to our passion for the game. I can respect that. We all want to get plays right. Also I do not want to call em and explain em. In the heat of the moment I will keep my comments to a coach I just T'd short and sweet. I don't care enough about coaches to want to T them up or throw them out.

As far as MTD (shrug), if he was R we would do things his way and if I was R we would do things my way. Even though we "argue" about this I have a feeling we would both communicate well enough with a coach that this situation would either not arise or a coach would get so out of hand it would be a no-brainer.

tomegun:

I hate to disappoint you but if I am R we will not do it my way we will do it the correct way, the same as I expect that we will do it the correct way if you are the R.

MTD, Sr.

yeah
 

I got 2 things!

1. I'd toss 'em

2. I like pizza

That's all I got!






-----------------------------------------------------
Officiating is the only job were you are expected to be perfect the first time out, and improve from then on!

Where does it say in the rule book or the mechanics book what the right way is when it comes to this? If you show me in a rule/mechanics book what the calling officials partner is supposed to do after a T I stand corrected. I know for a fact that several officials do some of the unwritten things differently. If this is written down then I have no problem following what is in black and white. If it isn't then it is one of the unwritten ways different officials do different things. In my post I clearly stated that we could work through this and you still come back with this. Whatever. I would just like to know if it is in the rule book or the mechanic book. Ultimately, I want to do what is right if it is written down.