The Official Forum - back court violation??

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by stan-MI
[B]I diagree with Bob Jenkins interpretation of what "caused" the ball to go into the backcourt. The ball hit A2 in the backcourt before it hit the ground in the backcourt. At the time of the tip by B, the ball still had frontcourt status. The ball still had frontcourt status until it was touched by A2. A2 caused it to go into the backcourt. Imagine the play if A1's crosscourt pass from the front court near the division line is batted back at him by B1 so that it bounces in the frontcourt before it hits A1, whose heel now is touching the division line. Who caused it to go into the backcourt? A1.

We went through this scenario last year. I think Denucci agreed with me. [QUOTE]MTD Sr, do you agree with Stan that this is a violation by A2 even though the ball was last touched in the frontcourt by B1?

Quote:

Originally posted by stan-MI
I diagree with Bob Jenkins interpretation of what "caused" the ball to go into the backcourt. The ball hit A2 in the backcourt before it hit the ground in the backcourt. At the time of the tip by B, the ball still had frontcourt status. The ball still had frontcourt status until it was touched by A2. A2 caused it to go into the backcourt. Imagine the play if A1's crosscourt pass from the front court near the division line is batted back at him by B1 so that it bounces in the frontcourt before it hits A1, whose heel now is touching the division line. Who caused it to go into the backcourt? A1.

Now, if the ball after the tip by B had bounced in the backcourt before it was touched by A, then B would have caused it to go into the backcourt and there would be no violation.

We went through this scenario last year. I think Denucci agreed with me. Take a look at NCAA 9-11-1 at http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/20...ball_rules.pdf. It's on page 122 of the pdf file. The Fed rule is worded differently but as far as I know, interpreted the same.

Sorry Stan but you're wrong, partner.

The ball hitting A2 in the BC is the same as if it had hit the floor in the BC and then A2. The rule requires A to last touch the ball before it enters the BC. In this case, it's obvious that B1 is the last to touch the ball before it enters BC.

If we call this a violation, then we are engaging in an excruciatingly silly literary gymnastic. We have to split enough hairs already.

Stan,
I can't understand the thought process of a player catching/retrieving a bball (regardless of the location) and being responsible for the bball's location, unless the player was the last person to touch the ball. No matter how much force the other player put on the ball by the touch, that touch decided the location.

Quote:

Originally posted by stan-MI
...At the time of the tip by B, the ball still had frontcourt status. The ball still had frontcourt status until it was touched by A2. A2 caused it to go into the backcourt.

Now, if the ball after the tip by B had bounced in the backcourt before it was touched by A, then B would have caused it to go into the backcourt and there would be no violation.

We went through this scenario last year. I think Denucci agreed with me. Take a look at NCAA 9-11-1 at http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/20...ball_rules.pdf. It's on page 122 of the pdf file. The Fed rule is worded differently but as far as I know, interpreted the same.

[Edited by stan-MI on Feb 3rd, 2004 at 12:30 PM]

And on page 123 the rules say

Art. 3. A pass in the front court that is deflected by a defensive player so that the ball goes into the back court may be recovered by either team.

Quote:

Originally posted by stan-MI
if the ball after the tip by B had bounced in the backcourt before it was touched by A, then B would have caused it to go into the backcourt and there would be no violation..

Stan -- the wording of the rule doesn't talk about "causing" the ball to be in the back court. It talks about who tipped it from where. Read the specific wording of the Fed 9-9-1, and 9-9-2. It couldn't be more clear.

Stan you are both correct and incorrect

Stan I agree that the ball had frontcourt status until A2 caught it in the backcourt. However, this is not a backcourt violation.
Can we agree that A2 is located in the backcourt when he catches the ball after it was deflected by B1? (Afterall, this is what makes the ball's status change from frontcourt to backcourt, right?) If we can agree upon A2 status, then A2 certainly cannot be considered to have "last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt" (quoted exactly from rule 9-9-1), since he is standing in the BACKCOURT! While A2 does cause the ball to gain backcourt status, he is clearly not the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt, he is merely the first to touch it in the backcourt.
B1 was the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt.
Therefore, no violation.

First to touch, last to touch.

No violation!

What is the difference if A1 is dribbling in the front court, B1 tips it away from A1 into the backcourt,and A1 goes and retrieves it?