I was at a High School game and saw this play. I think the Officials missed the call but I would like verification.
Player A1 dribbles into the frontcourt to the freethrow line. A1 misfires a pass back towards the midcourt line and A2 jumps from the frontcourt grabbing the ball and tries to pass it back to A1 while A2 is still in midair on the frontcourt side of the midcourt line. B1 jumps up from A2's frontcourt and blocks the pass intended for A1 who is still in his frontcourt. The ball lands in A2's hands while A2 is standing in his BACKCOURT and catches the ball and passes to A1 who is still in his frontcourt.
I believe this is over-and-back but it wasn't called. What is the correct call? I say that Team A never lost possession in their frontcourt and A2 was in a backcourt violation position when his passed was blocked back to him by B1. There wasn't any reaction from either Coach when that play happened so maybe everyone missed it or I am incorrect.

This is not a backcourt violation because the ball was last touched in the frontcourt by a member of Team B. Anyone can therefore touch it in A's backcourt with no violation.

You don't need team control (possession) in the front court for this, all you need is:

1. Team A has team control
2. Ball gains front court status
3. A is the last to touch the ball before it returns to the back court
4. A is the first to touch the ball after it returns to the back court.

So, you had 1 & 4 as I read your scenario.

Oops, you had 1,2 & 3

[Edited by Dan_ref on Feb 2nd, 2004 at 03:38 PM]

The whistle,
The ball was last touched by B1 in the frontcourt.
The ball gained backcourt, not frontcourt, status when it touched A2 in the backcourt.
Good call.
mick

Following Dan's post of 1-4 criteria
 

And 2 but not 3 - B was last to touch in the frontcourt.

Therefore, no backcourt violation.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Feb 2nd, 2004 at 03:40 PM]

yep, good catch

I disagree with the previous posters. The ball still had frontcourt status when it was touched by A2 in the backcourt. Therefore, A2 caused the ball to go into the backcourt and a violation occured. This is clear under the wording of the NCAA rule and, although the Fed rule is written differently, I do not believe there is any diffence in interpretation of the two rules.

So, if team A has established possession in their frontcourt and the ball gets deflected by B1 (while still in Team A frontcourt) to the backcourt and grabbed by A1 it isn't over-and-back?

Nate would disagree.

That's not correct, Stan. A player doesn't "cause" the ball to go the the backcourt by touching it there, like a player "causes" the ball to be OOB by touching it OOB.

A player "causes" the ball to go to the backcourt by being the last to touch it in the front court.

You're wrong in both rulesets, Stan. It's not a backcourt violation.See NFHS rule 9-9-1. B1, not A2, was the last player to touch it in the front court before the ball went into the backcourt. The NCAA language is basically the same.

Exactly right, Whistle. It's no different than B1 tipping the ball into the backcourt and A2 retrieving it. It's never been a backcourt violation for the offensive team to retrieve a ball that was knocked into the back court by the defensive team.

I diagree with Bob Jenkins interpretation of what "caused" the ball to go into the backcourt. The ball hit A2 in the backcourt before it hit the ground in the backcourt. At the time of the tip by B, the ball still had frontcourt status. The ball still had frontcourt status until it was touched by A2. A2 caused it to go into the backcourt. Imagine the play if A1's crosscourt pass from the front court near the division line is batted back at him by B1 so that it bounces in the frontcourt before it hits A1, whose heel now is touching the division line. Who caused it to go into the backcourt? A1.

Now, if the ball after the tip by B had bounced in the backcourt before it was touched by A, then B would have caused it to go into the backcourt and there would be no violation.

We went through this scenario last year. I think Denucci agreed with me. Take a look at NCAA 9-11-1 at http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/20...ball_rules.pdf. It's on page 122 of the pdf file. The Fed rule is worded differently but as far as I know, interpreted the same.

[Edited by stan-MI on Feb 3rd, 2004 at 12:30 PM]

That is the key question then. When does the ball achieve backcourt status? Once it crosses the division line? Once it hits in the backcourt or touches someone in the backcourt.

If you look at OOB, the ball is not out once it crosses the plane, but it has to hit OOB or hit someone or something OOB before it is called OOB. To be consistent I think you would have to use the same paramaters here. The ball can't achieve backcourt status until it hits the backcourt or someone or something in the backcourt.

If that is the case, then you need to ask yourself, "Can A2 be both the last person to touch in the frontcourt and the first person to touch in the backcourt all at the same time?" Personally, I don't think that they can and now I would have to go with B1 being the last person to touch in the frontcourt and no violation.

I think the FED may need to come up with a case play for this situation.

...Not when only Stan-MI and Mark T. are the only two that don't seem to understand it. :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stan-MI
[B]I diagree with Bob Jenkins interpretation of what "caused" the ball to go into the backcourt. The ball hit A2 in the backcourt before it hit the ground in the backcourt. At the time of the tip by B, the ball still had frontcourt status. The ball still had frontcourt status until it was touched by A2. A2 caused it to go into the backcourt. Imagine the play if A1's crosscourt pass from the front court near the division line is batted back at him by B1 so that it bounces in the frontcourt before it hits A1, whose heel now is touching the division line. Who caused it to go into the backcourt? A1.

We went through this scenario last year. I think Denucci agreed with me. [QUOTE]MTD Sr, do you agree with Stan that this is a violation by A2 even though the ball was last touched in the frontcourt by B1?

Sorry Stan but you're wrong, partner.

The ball hitting A2 in the BC is the same as if it had hit the floor in the BC and then A2. The rule requires A to last touch the ball before it enters the BC. In this case, it's obvious that B1 is the last to touch the ball before it enters BC.

If we call this a violation, then we are engaging in an excruciatingly silly literary gymnastic. We have to split enough hairs already.

Stan,
I can't understand the thought process of a player catching/retrieving a bball (regardless of the location) and being responsible for the bball's location, unless the player was the last person to touch the ball. No matter how much force the other player put on the ball by the touch, that touch decided the location.

And on page 123 the rules say

Art. 3. A pass in the front court that is deflected by a defensive player so that the ball goes into the back court may be recovered by either team.

Stan -- the wording of the rule doesn't talk about "causing" the ball to be in the back court. It talks about who tipped it from where. Read the specific wording of the Fed 9-9-1, and 9-9-2. It couldn't be more clear.

Stan you are both correct and incorrect
 

Stan I agree that the ball had frontcourt status until A2 caught it in the backcourt. However, this is not a backcourt violation.
Can we agree that A2 is located in the backcourt when he catches the ball after it was deflected by B1? (Afterall, this is what makes the ball's status change from frontcourt to backcourt, right?) If we can agree upon A2 status, then A2 certainly cannot be considered to have "last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt" (quoted exactly from rule 9-9-1), since he is standing in the BACKCOURT! While A2 does cause the ball to gain backcourt status, he is clearly not the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt, he is merely the first to touch it in the backcourt.
B1 was the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt.
Therefore, no violation.

First to touch, last to touch.

No violation!

What is the difference if A1 is dribbling in the front court, B1 tips it away from A1 into the backcourt,and A1 goes and retrieves it?