The following play happened in my boys' H.S. freshmen game this afternoon. It really did. "I kid you not" to quote the late Jack Parr.

Team A had the ball for a throw-in on the endline in its frontcourt with one second left in the first quarter. A1 throw the the inbounds pass to A2 who was standing at the top of the three point arc. The instant that A2 caught the ball the game clock horn sounded with 0 seconds showing on the clock and all of the players stopped. It was obvious that the Timer started the clock too soon. I was the R. I put one second back on the clock and gave Team A the ball for a throw-in on the sideline nearest the spot where A2 caught A1's inbounds pass.

As Yogi would say, "It was deja vu all over the again."

darn it MTD you had me agreeing 100% until you put the ball in at the sideline and put all the time back......I agree put all the time back, but give em the ball in the original location again.....now lets all pair off in threes and discuss this again :D

I don't think that there's any real need to discuss that last thread again. The last thread had completely different circumstances. In that thread, the official chopped the time in when he shouldn't have. There's no lag-time factor in stopping the clock that anyone can argue this time, either .In this sitch, it is a straight timer's mistake with <b>no</b> extenuating circumstances whatsoever, and is covered under Rule 5-10-1. You can't argue that it was an official's mistake instead of a timer's mistake this time. Maybe MTD can come up with a rule that will allow him to move the throw-in up floor while correcting the time in this sitch, but I sure can't think of one. There's nothing in Rule 5-10 that says that he can, that's for sure. By rule, you can put the one second back on the clock because you had definite information that that's when the timer mistakenly started the clock. Now where was the ball when the clock showed the proper time of one second remaining? Sureashell not 40-50 feet up the floor, was it? :D

I would hazard a guess that the B coach was not too happy with his call.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 31st, 2004 at 03:48 AM]

I’m glade to see that Mark made that mistake because now I don’t feel so bad. Week before last, A up by 3 with 9 tenths of a second left on the clock at the end of the game. A1 is spot inbounding on the B’s baseline and B is putting double pressure on A1. A1 takes a few steps back and heaves the ball high down court. The ball hits a volleyball net hanging at mid-court from the ceiling and the buzzer sounds. Went over inbounds situations with the timer before the game. :(

Put the 0.09 back on the clock and gave B the ball at mid-court. No one caught the mistake as everyone, I guess, was still thinking about the timers action. To make matters worst we had a no touch inbounds throw-in during the first half and handled it correctly.

So thanks Mark, now I know even you interpreters can make mistakes ;)

I was thinking the same thing. Just put it back on the inbounds line as it were before the clock started and continue.

Thanks
David

cmathews (Jan 31st, 2004 02:21 AM): "darn it MTD you had me agreeing 100% until you put the ball in at the sideline and put all the time back......I agree put all the time back, but give em the ball in the original location again.....now lets all pair off in threes and discuss this again."

MTD, Sr.: cmathews, why would you give Team A the ball for a throw-in on the endline in their frontcourt? Did the Timer’s mistake negate A1 throw-in pass to A2? No it did not. The correct spot for Team A’s next throw-in is nearest the spot where A2 caught A1 throw-in pass.





RecRef (Jan 31st, 2004 09:03 AM): "I’m glade to see that Mark made that mistake because now I don’t feel so bad. Week before last, A up by 3 with 9 tenths of a second left on the clock at the end of the game. A1 is spot inbounding on the B’s baseline and B is putting double pressure on A1. A1 takes a few steps back and heaves the ball high down court. The ball hits a volleyball net hanging at mid-court from the ceiling and the buzzer sounds. Went over inbounds situations with the timer before the game.

Put the 0.09 back on the clock and gave B the ball at mid-court. No one caught the mistake as everyone, I guess, was still thinking about the timers action. To make matters worst we had a no touch inbounds throw-in during the first half and handled it correctly.”

So thanks Mark, now I know even you interpreters can make mistakes."

MTD, Sr.: RecRef, the only mistake that I can see that you made is that you incorrectly gave Team B the ball at the division line for a throw-in instead on the endline in its front court closest to the spot where A1 released his/her throw-in pass. As I stated in my response to cmathews, the Timer’s mistake did not negate A1’s throw-in pass and throw-in violation.





Yes, David B, Coach B was not happy with me putting time on the clock and giving Team A another throw-in, but an official's job is not to make Caoch B happy, but to do the correct thing.

[Edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on Jan 31st, 2004 at 10:36 PM]

Do you have a rules citation that will back up your hypothesis above, Mark, that you can move the throw-in up the floor?

Btw, exactly what throw-in pass are you talking about. You stated in your initial post above- <i>"the <b>instant</b> that A2 caught the ball, the game horn sounded..."</i>. You didn't say that A2 caught the ball <b>before</b> the horn sounded. Horn = dead ball, Mark. Therefore A2 caught a dead ball. There never was a completed throw-in pass, iow. How can you move the ball up the floor when team A never did have possession up the floor? Also,what's your call if A1 only touched the ball instead of catching it, and the ball was loose? Best of all, please tell me what your call would have been if B1 had caught that long pass when the horn went off instead of A2. Using your logic, would you put 1 second back on the clock, and then give B the ball for a throw-in where B1 caught the ball? I can hardly wait for you to try and answer that last one. :D

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 31st, 2004 at 03:03 PM]

Just one question for MTD, why is it a timers mistake now, when in the last situation, it was an officials mistake??

If Mark doesn't mind, I'll answer that one for him. In the late, lamented, lengthy thread, the official did erroneously chop time in on the throw-in before the ball was touched on the throw-in. The timer started the clock on the official's wrong signal, instead of when the ball was legally touched on the throw-in. That doesn't apply in the case above. This one is a straight timer's error, with no extenuating circumstances.

I apologize then,

I misunderstood the original play. I thought that the official did not chop, but the timer started the clock erroniously.

Sorry for any inconveinece this may have caused..

Edited for spelling.

[Edited by ref18 on Jan 31st, 2004 at 07:11 PM]

That's true for this thread. Straight timer's mistake.

Jurassic Referee: The first mistake in your post above is when you stated that A2 caught a dead ball. One of the fundamentals of basketball is that the horn does not cause the ball to become dead (see NFHS R6-S7; please do not attempt to invoke R6-S7-A6, because this Article does not apply when the game clock is started incorrectly). The game clock was incorrectly started; the fact that the game was started too soon does not negate A1 throw-in. A2 did in fact catch a live ball. And yes, if B1 had caught A1's inbounds pass, I would have put one second on the game clock, and given Team B the ball for a throw-in on the sideline nearest the spot where B1 had caught the throw-in.

MTD, well I still don't like the feel of moving the ball up the court, there is no rule or case play to support it, I also agree there is no rule or case play that directly prohibits it either. To me if we put the time back to the original we just do the whole thing over. I don't think that you can definitively say that that is wrong either, because there is no specific case or rule to cite one way or the other...I will give you this, you are consistent in your moving the ball up the court LOL....but as we all know half of this game is 90% mental....:D

In the previous thread that has since been deleted, the (Trail) official that administered the throw-in signaled for the clock to start before the clock should have started. The Timer started the clock when the Trail official signaled time-in. The Trail official's signaling time-in too soon is of no consequence. The rules are quite specific as to when the clock is to start. The Timer's mistake is what is important in the previous thread as well as in the play that I posted in this thread. See NFHS R5-S9-A4.

You still have not answered my question: Why would you negate A1's throw-in? Tell me how the clock starting too soon negates Team A's throw-in?

The throw goes with the clock
 

I would negate the throw-in just as in the play during the game you negated the time on the clock.

If you go with the throw in and let that happen, then you might as well go with the horn sounding and end the game.

Basically you have allowed action to take place during a dead ball. Why let one action (the throw in) happen, but not let the other action (the clock starting) happen.

Thanks
David

MTD, Sr.: cmathews, why would you give Team A the ball for a throw-in on the endline in their frontcourt? Did the Timer’s mistake negate A1 throw-in pass to A2? No it did not. The correct spot for Team A’s next throw-in is nearest the spot where A2 caught A1 throw-in pass.


because I have learned from experience that what ever I say now is moot...you have made your decision we will now all be wrong from this time forward.

Re: The throw goes with the clock
 

David, you need to read NFHS R6-S7, which defines when a live ball becomes dead and NFHS R5-S9-A4, which defines when the clock shall start. A1's throw-in cannot be negated because of the Timer's mistake. It is not a question of letting one action (the throw-in) happen, but not letting the other action (the clock starting) happen, because by rule the clock cannot start until the throw-in touches a player or is touched by a player on the court. A1's throw-in did happen and the clock was not supposed to start until the A2 caught the throw-in. An official cannot attempt to make both teams happy; he must do what is correct by rule.

Instead of being a Smart Alec, give me a logical (supported by rule) reason(s) for me being wrong.

Do you have a rules citation that will back up your hypothesis above, Mark, that you can move the throw-in up the floor?

Btw, exactly what throw-in pass are you talking about. You stated in your initial post above- <i>"the <b>instant</b> that A2 caught the ball, the game horn sounded..."</i>. You didn't say that A2 caught the ball <b>before</b> the horn sounded. Horn = dead ball, Mark. Therefore A2 caught a dead ball. There never was a completed throw-in pass, iow. How can you move the ball up the floor when team A never did have possession up the floor?

[/B][/QUOTE]

Jurassic Referee: The first mistake in your post above is when you stated that A2 caught a dead ball. One of the fundamentals of basketball is that the horn does not cause the ball to become dead (see NFHS R6-S7; please do not attempt to invoke R6-S7-A6, because this Article does not apply when the game clock is started incorrectly). The game clock was incorrectly started; the fact that the game was started too soon does not negate A1 throw-in. A2 did in fact catch a live ball.

[/B][/QUOTE]1) You can not now, nor will you ever be able to post a rule or casebook play that would justify allowing that throw-in to occur and then put 1 second back on the clock also.
2) Your mistake in the post above is that you think that your <b>opinion</b> should supersede written rules.Would you please explain to me exactly why I can't cite a plainly written rule --i.e. R6-7-6-- when that rule happens to point out the fallacy of your hypothesis? Can you cite anything from the rulebook or casebook that would negate this rule? All I see above is <b>you</b>saying that this rule doesn't apply. You can't just say that a rule doesn't apply, Mark, just because that rule happens to blow your whole little fantasy out of the water. How about rule 5-6, Mark? That one says that a quarter ends when the signal sounds indicating that time has expired. Do we have to ignore that one also?

If you're going to post something and claim that it is a fact, you have to be able to back up your claim with rules citations. You can't do that in this situation, plain and simple!

Instead of being a Smart Alec, give me a logical (supported by rule) reason(s) for me being wrong.

[/B][/QUOTE]Mark, instead of you being a Smart Alec, please post a logical (supported by rule) reason(s) why you are right. You haven't cited one rule yet that supports your claim, or tells us why rules 6-7-6 and 5-6 don't apply in this particular situation.

David, you need to read NFHS R6-S7, which defines when a live ball becomes dead and NFHS R5-S9-A4, which defines when the clock shall start. A1's throw-in cannot be negated because of the Timer's mistake.

[/B][/QUOTE]1) NFHS R6-7-6 states that a ball becomes dead when time expires for a quarter. The exceptions to that rule do not apply in this case. A2 caught a dead ball. Ergo, the throw-in was never completed. If there is something else in R6-7 that says that this is wrong( or any other rule that you can think of, for that matter), please share it with us. You haven't done that yet.
2) NFHS rule 5-9-4 is not germane in this situation. If the timer had applied R5-9-4 properly, by rule you would then be unable to invoke R5-10-1-- because there would have been <b>no</b> timer's mistake to correct.

MTD if you will look above in this particular post and previously in the thread, I point out that your position is no more supported by rule than anyone elses. I wasn't being a smart alec, if you look above just what I said is taking place. No one else's opinion matters, you choose to use portions and pieces of rules, and then tell others that they can't use anything in the rule book that ruins your interpretation or at least calls it into question.

Re: Re: The throw goes with the clock
 

Mark, I've read both of those and they are not pertinent to this play. Now if you would just explain to me which rule it is that you used in order to "do what is correct by rule" then I would go along with your theory.

Until then, I still believe in the sense of fair play that you would have been better off either ending the game, or doing the play over.


Thanks
David

Re: Re: Re: The throw goes with the clock
 

Wow, I think both Coach A and Coach B are going to go ballistic when you end the game after the first quarter! :)

Mark, although I'm inclined to agree with you, I want to know how you have definite knowledge about the amount of time that elapsed between the catching of the inbounds pass and the moment you decided to kill the play (you heard the horn). If you heard the horn before he touched it, you would've decided the ball was dead when you heard the horn, and you'd have to return the ball to the original spot (or go to the arrow???). If you heard it after, you'd have to have definite knowledge to be able to put time back on the clock, correct? What am I missing here?

[Edited by A Pennsylvania Coach on Feb 2nd, 2004 at 01:56 PM]

time for a newbie
 

All right. Here is my two cents.

If I were coach of Team A or B, it wouldn't be a huge deal to me though. As long as you sold it and looked convinced yourself.

As a referee, I don't exactly agree. There was a timer's mistake. I have looked through the NFHS book and believe that this situation is not specifically covered by the rules or case book.

Your interpretation could be deemed correct. By rule 5-10-1, there was an obvious mistake by the timer to start the clock and you had definite information that there should have been exactly one second remaining once he caught the ball. You can put that one second on and allow the ball to be placed at the disposal of the thrower for Team A nearest the spot of the interruption. Good call!

However, as an official that believes fair play and interpretation are at stake in an instant. I could also argue and be correct with my interpretation. You see, I have the sense that because of a timer’s mistake, Team A is at a disadvantage if they lost their baseline throw in. Team B will be at a disadvantage regardless- because A will get another throw in period. Many officials posting here have the sense that the correct thing to do is throw in from the original spot and reset the clock to 1 second. The rules support this as well.

I could argue (with definite information) that the timer’s mistake took place exactly 1 second before the horn sound/the ball was caught. Furthermore, at that point in time, the ball was a live ball and an airborne inbounds pass. The spot nearest to this point would be the baseline where the original throw in took place. Therefore, reset the clock to 1 second and throw in from that spot.

Either interpretation could be applied here since the book does not cover this specifically. I would go with the latter because it allows a throw in and I have one fewer upset coaches. It has a better sense of fairness. Mark you went with the former, you were on the court calling the game. I can’t argue with it. At least you have the cajones to discuss the situation.