http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/spt/...ial.2b364.html

Who makes this decision? Anyone seen this happen? Thoughts?

My guess is that it depends on the assignor.

If the officials contract with the schools, the school possibly has the right to fire them on the spot.

If through an association, who knows?

We don't contract here in Texas. I read that article as soon as I got home tonight from our Chapter Meeting. The ironic thing was this very thing, ref's not keeping their mouths shut, was the #1 thing on the list for discussion from the board.

I'd say this guy got exactly what he deserved.

repeat after me
 

don't talk to fans, don't talk to fans, don't . . .

Where's the due process, though? What's to stop a home team from removing someone because they don't like his calls?

Slippery slope.

"ejected."
 

I have never heard of this. Not sure how this would be done. The officials are the authority of the game. If they do not do their job properly, I can see them not asked back. But not "ejected" from the game.

I am really confused how this can be done in the first place.

Peace

I couldn't see this article without logging in as a user. Is there a direct link to the article, or could it be posted in the forum?

High school official ejected for profanity

02:37 PM CST on Wednesday, January 28, 2004


By SCOTT FARRELL / The Dallas Morning News



MESQUITE – The girls basketball game between Mesquite Poteet and Mesquite Horn was postponed after one official was ejected at halftime for directing a profane comment at fans.

Poteet (20-6, 7-1 District 12-4A) led, 22-10, with 4 seconds remaining in the half when referee Floyd Woods and some Poteet fans exchanged words. The fans were responding to an off-the-ball foul call, which gave Horn (14-6, 5-2) guard Ashley Crawford a bonus free throw.

Before the first free throw, Woods retorted to the crowd while standing in front of the Poteet stands. After the crowd's continued heckling, Woods responded again, this time with an expletive.

Crawford's second free throw missed and the first half expired. As the referees left the floor, Poteet administrators caught up to Woods and escorted him out of the gym.

A replacement could not be found, so Poteet officials suspended the game until Feb. 12.

Due process will certainly occur after the fact. As of now, nobody has had any action taken against them that cannot be undone. If the ref didn't get paid, he can get paid if he is found to be in the right. If the opposition was harmed by suspending the game (which I doubt since the home team had a sizable lead), the home team could be forced to forfeit if they are found to have acted in error. And the ref can still sue anybody he wants if he feels he was harmed by publicity surrounding this incident. So I do not believe that due process has been denied.

Game management had to make a decision and did. jrut, what you are suggesting occurred did not by any account here. If the AD didn't like the calls and so removed the ref, I am sure that follow-up review would handle this situation differently than one in which the ref popped off at the crowd. And even in this case, a review of events may find that the ref is not in the wrong. But game management felt they needed to act and did - they will be accountable for their actions.

But in an HS contest, if the ref displays unacceptable conduct, somebody has to be able to step in and remove him. This is obviously not the run of the mill situation, but I have no issue with this occurring here.

Due Process?
 

Due Process, what a concept. Simple facts; if ref is hired by the school, ref can be fired by the school. Whatever policies the school has in place for proper conduct by an outside contractor apply to the ref as well as to the electrician they hire to fix the wiring. Obviously someone in the school's management felt that this person had stepped over the line and decided to make a change.

While I agree that the ref has authority over the game, we all argue that game management is responsible for the facility, fans, etc.. I would also state that they probably could have issued a reprimand to this official, finished the game, and than if they were still upset, contact his assignor, if there is one, or work through the school to make sure this official did not return to the school.

Obviously the ultimate authority on the outcome of the game comes from the Texas High School Association. In any case, that part is not the officials' concern.

Grail

We as HS BB Oficials have all been in that exact situation. One should always ignore the crowd ( they know even less about the rules then the coaches). If there is one individual in the crowd who can be singled out, then the site administrator should be notified, and the malcontent should be removed. In CT we have Police Officers in every gym. I have on more than one occassion asked them to remove people from the gym ( mostly students, however, I have had parents removed too ). I have enough freinds in my personal life I don't need any more. I'm here to do a job to the best of my ability. I need my partner(s) to have my back, and that's it.

This guy got what he deserved because he didn't keep his head.

Earlier in the thread some said it all:

Don't interact with the crowd. This is HS BB, not the Harlem Globetrotters.

What?
 

What are you talking about? :confused: I am not suggesting anything. You cannot just throw out an official because of language alone. If you read the entire follow up, the folks in the know claim that this did not follow procedure. No administrators can just step in. If that is the case they can do that when they do not like the job you are doing. I could see if there was a fight with an official or that officials was attacked, but this is a he said, she said type situation. Whatever he said, he said and no administrator heard it apparantly. We like to talk about rules, where does the rules cover this. Because you cannot just dumb an official just because you do not like their behavior.

Peace

Two comments
 

1. You should not say anything to the fans unless you are willing to take the risk that goes with it. Most administrators ignore obnoxious fans because they don't want the hassle even though this is where most of the problems originate. 2. In nearly 2000 games of officiating I've had confrontations after the game where someone was up front and personal(only once physical) 20 times and 18 out of the twenty have been mothers so I suggest staying away from a mother when you see her coming!! If you see her coming get the hell out of there because it is primordial instinct and they are defending the young!

I have never been in anything even close to this situation, fortunately. But if I were, I think I would tell the administrator that I was assigned to the game, and I'm staying until the game is over, or until my partner and I decide that the game cannot be continued. So, if you want me to leave, fine, but the game is over. You forfeit. Otherwise, it's my court and my game for 32 minutes.

Additionally, s/he'll have to wipe my puke off his/her shoes when our conversation is over.

Follow up article
 

Referee's alleged profanity creates a stir

Parents stunned by retort during game; officials will investigate


12:00 PM CST on Thursday, January 29, 2004


By DAVID McNABB / The Dallas Morning News



MESQUITE – Teresa Carey was back on the fourth row of the middle section of the Mesquite Poteet gym Wednesday night. She and other parents and fans of Poteet's girls basketball team still were buzzing about the profanity they say a referee directed at them during a game against Mesquite Horn on Tuesday.

"He turned around and said it very distinctly," said Carey, whose daughter, Triauna, plays for Poteet. "And all the little kids went, 'Oooohh.' "

Poteet fans then complained to an on-site school administrator, which in turn led to referee Floyd Woods being escorted from the gym and the game suspended at halftime until Wednesday.

Woods, a veteran referee who has called college games as well, did not return phone messages from The News, and on two separate visits by a News reporter, persons at Woods' home said he was not there.

Steve Mankin, supervisor for the Dallas Basketball Officials Association, said he was investigating the incident but couldn't comment.

Several Poteet parents repeated their story Wednesday that Woods turned toward the stands and used a profanity as a Horn player was set to shoot a free throw before halftime of Tuesday's game. The parents said there had been some yelling at the officials but nothing of a personal nature.

"He wasn't attacked," Carey said. "Nobody called him a name."

Said Velma Wommack, whose daughter, Jessica, plays for Poteet: "Everyone's jaw dropped. We all turned around to look at each other like, 'Did he just say that?' "

Mesquite school district officials issued a statement Wednesday confirming that the administrator – Poteet assistant principal David Medina – had acted on the parents' complaints of "inappropriate exchange between the game official, fans and students." The statement said the decision to dismiss the referee was to ensure the integrity of the game.

Medina said he couldn't comment because of school policy. Elvenn Richardson, Woods' referee partner Tuesday, said he couldn't comment because of DBOA rules.

The game resumed Wednesday with two new referees and was completed without incident. Poteet, which led 22-10 when the game was suspended, won, 46-24.

Mankin, the officials' supervisor, said because of the incident's unusual nature, he didn't know the exact process that would be followed. He said he'll interview and request written reports from all officials involved.

Several people connected with officiating and game management said incidents involving referees are typically handled differently.

Paul Galvan, a longtime official and former supervisor with the Southwest Conference who is now Fort Worth ISD athletic director, said Woods probably should not have been ejected.

Galvan said he believed the usual procedure would be for the school administrator to make a complaint to the Texas Association of Sporting Officials, of which every referee must be a member.

"They could have gone to the referee and said they don't want to hear any profanity," Galvan said, "and then make a report."

TASO assistant director Steven Ellinger said if a school administrator – routinely assigned to monitor games – doesn't hear something personally, "it might not be a good thing for fans to think they can go say this and get rid of the official."

Ellinger said if the security officers had intervened first, then it would have been a legal matter and out of the hands of school officials and referees. He said there have been complaints made against officials for inappropriate language in the past, and that TASO has the power to ban or suspend officials for such language.

Ellinger said it was basic TASO policy that officials shouldn't interact with fans. "It's just not a win situation," Ellinger said.

Longtime coaches and officials said it's the first time they had heard of a referee being ejected.

"I have heard officials and fans get into it," Duncanville boys basketball coach Phil McNeely said. "But I've never seen the official go."

Staff Writer Kate Hairopoulos contributed to this report.

See Rich's comment. A Slippery Slope Indeed!!!

Base on your strong comment, I'm assuming you had first hand knowledge of the entire situation?? If not, how can you, in good conscience, say: "(he) got exactly what he deserved"?

The actions by the game admin. are definitely not a good precedent. I'm with Chuck on this, 'it's my game til the 32 min. are up and my partner and I have left the vicinity of the court.'

Update
 

Referee denies using profanity

Parents stunned by alleged retort during game


04:45 PM CST on Thursday, January 29, 2004


By DAVID McNABB / The Dallas Morning News



MESQUITE – A veteran referee denied through his attorney that he used profanity or had any interaction with fans while officiating the Mesquite Poteet-Mesquite Horn s basketball game Tuesday night.

Several parents and fans said that Woods, a 19-year game official, turned toward the stands and directed a profanity at them as a Horn player was set to shoot a free throw.

“(Woods)’ recollection is that he didn’t say anything to anyone but players,” attorney George Yarbrough said Thursday. “He never said anything to anybody …(Woods) doesn’t remember anything out of the ordinary said by the fans. Just the regular stuff.”

Parents said there had been some yelling at the officials but nothing of a personal nature.

"(Woods) turned around and said (the profanity) very distinctly," said Teresa Carey, whose daughter, Triauna, plays for Poteet. "And all the little kids went, 'Oooohh.' "

Said Velma Wommack, whose daughter, Jessica, plays for Poteet: "Everyone's jaw dropped. We all turned around to look at each other like, 'Did he just say that?' "

Woods was escorted from Poteet’s gym and the game suspended at halftime. Poteet assistant principal David Medina -- the on-site administrator in charge -- asked Woods to leave. The game was completed Wednesday night, with Poteet winning, 46-24.

Dallas Basketball Officials Association president Steve Mankin said Wednesday he’s investigating the incident but couldn’t comment. Elvenn Richardson, the co-official at Tuesday’s games, said it’s against DBOA policy for referees to discuss games.

Yarbrough said he was retained by Woods to help him through the investigation process.

Several people connected with officiating and game management said incidents involving referees are typically handled differently.

Paul Galvan, a longtime official and former supervisor with the Southwest Conference who is now Fort Worth ISD athletic director, said Woods probably should not have been ejected.

Galvan said he believed the usual procedure would be for the school administrator to make a complaint to the Texas Association of Sporting Officials, of which every referee must be a member.

"They could have gone to the referee and said they don't want to hear any profanity," Galvan said, "and then make a report."

TASO assistant director Steven Ellinger said if a school administrator – routinely assigned to monitor games – doesn't hear something personally, "it might not be a good thing for fans to think they can go say this and get rid of the official."

Ellinger said if the security officers had intervened first, then it would have been a legal matter and out of the hands of school officials and referees. He said there have been complaints made against officials for inappropriate language in the past, and that TASO has the power to ban or suspend officials for such language.

Ellinger said it was basic TASO policy that officials shouldn't interact with fans. "It's just not a win situation," Ellinger said.

Longtime coaches and officials said it's the first time they had heard of a referee being ejected.

"I have heard officials and fans get into it," Duncanville boys basketball coach Phil McNeely said. "But I've never seen the official go."

Staff Writer Kate Hairopoulos contributed to this report.

E-mail [email protected]

jrut
sorry - I confused your post with RicH F's. I should have directed my comments to Rich. My point was only that appropriate authorities would still weigh in, so due process was not denied. If the administrator acted only on what the home fans said to him, then I would say that I have an issue with the ejection. from the follow-up articales, it sounds like that may have occurred, but we don't have the whole story. If the official said one of the magic words and the administrator heard it, I have no problem with him being removed and let everyone sort it out later.

My example would be if an official told a coach, player or fan to F off. If a player said this to an official, he would be gone as would a coach. It's an HS game, so an official could be gone for this as well. If it isn't so obvious, this could be handled with a conversation at halftime (and it was halftime) and the game could continue.

And the refs would be right to say they were calling it a forfeit - and al this can be sorted out later. The powers that be can decide the resolution of the game and the situation with the referee. But game administration has the right to decide what they will tolerate in their gym. If their decision is irrational and not backed up by higher authorities, they should pay the price for that decision. But night of the game, they make the call and live with it.

Where are the rules that cover this?
 

At least in my state, the forfeit would be final. It would not be up for debate or discussion. The IHSA considers official's decisions to be final. So if it cost you a conference title or cost you more games for your conduct, if that is the route you want to take, so be it. And I would not be officiating a game by myself because an administrator did not like something an official did. I know I would not be leaving myself without the game being forfeited and I would support my partner and leave as well. Because we cannot have fans and players dictating who stays and goes. That is why administrators take any kind of action in my opinion like this. Because it is a "he said, she said" situation. I have no problem with reporting the official, but to dictate that he stays or not is flat our wrong. Because if you do it for profanity, are we going to do it because we do not like a call? Are you going to do it because a coach got ejected? The officials are the ultimate authority of the game, not the game management. Because if someone is not cooperating in running that game, it is not the official that should be leaving. Folks here want to always talk about what the rules say, what rule supports this action? The story does not even say what profanity was used. And for me that does matter. Because some people feel that saying "pi$$t" is a profanity word. I need more than "profanity" to even back this situation.

Peace

No, I didn't have first hand knowledge of the situation. Does that mean I can't make an opinion? It's not like my opinion of the situation is set in stone. However, as this story continues to unfold, (there is another write up about it in the Dallas Morning News Today) some of us will likely see another point to the story and thereby making another opinion of the whole situation. I could very well be one of those people.

I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion, I only questioned how you could make such a strong, unqualified statement like you did. And only to get you thinking more in depth. And, as you have pointed out in your most recent post, waited to get more than one side as well as more info from other sources.

If you had said something like: "If this happened as reported then he got exactly what he deserved.", then I would have no qualms with your opinion at all.

What if. . .
 

Certain incdividuals seem to want to playe the what if game - what if game admin didn't like the calls, what if the coach got ejected and game admin responded by ejecting the ref, etc. That does not appear to have happened here, but if it did, the school would, without doubt, pay a price for having taken this action.

Now lets play "what if" the other direction. What if the ref pulled out a gun? What if the ref started a fist fight with the crowd? At what point would you allow game admin to say we are done? Is there any case where you would say game admin could step in and say game over? If so, then we are simply talking about a case where that occurred, and what would be enough for that to occur.

Where do you draw the line?
 

H Coach,

You can "what if," all day. Administrators are not the ones that have this authority. The rules does not give them that authority. Unless you have a guideline from your organization they cannot do that. You can always use extreame situations to make a point but none of that happen. This is not about an official that pulled out a gun. This is about a verbal confrontation. An administrator cannot just decide the officials goes. If that is the case then an administrator could use the logic if a coach and official have words. That does happen rather often.

Addressing the "what ifs"...

Would this administrator have "tossed" his coach for negatively reacting (using profanity) to an official's call or opposing fans?

If I did not make it clear. This official should be reported and suspended in my opinion if any of this is true. If for no other reason that he interacted with fans and there were words of some kind. He acted completely unprofessionally and should be dealt with. The action on his part would result in a suspension or losing of games if done where I have worked. I just feel that the administrator has no authority to do anything. He or she has the authority over their fans. But if you have a problem with the official then the administrator should report the official and go through a process. Because if they do not do that where do you draw the line on this type of authority? No rules cover this authority that I am aware of? Is there?

That is a great point.
 

You do not see them address situations where the coaches and fans use that kind of language. Why are they not using the same logic to dumb a coach themselves?

What about the Duke/Maryland game? Administrators allowed the Maryland students come in the gym with "F**K Duke" shirts on them? Why not take action in situations like that?

Peace

There is NOTHING to prevent a team for getting rid of an official based on his calls. That is the reality of officiating.

And that reality might include an evaluation by the association of their relationship with that school/coach in the future.

don't talk to fans, dont' talk to fans...

I agree with Jrut. How far are they going to go? There are already too many instances where the home team ironically gets more calls because some of us find it harder to make calls against the home team. If he is strong then good for him. If he cleared the gym there would be people complaining about that. The game should have went on and they could have taken action after the game. The game should be a forfeit.

Let someone try to "eject" me tonight! There will be some smoke in the city.

[Edited by tomegun on Jan 30th, 2004 at 01:13 PM]

Best thing to remember when dealing with fans is,
"Silence can never be quoted" This comes from a college assigner, and I have heard several veteran officials quote it.

I can speak for my state only. But there are guidelines for conduct by the schools and how they run the game. Of course they have say over what is done in their gym, but that does not override the decisions that are made by the official. If they do try to override an official's decision, that can easily forefit the game. If they violate the spirit of the rules, they can result in further action and action has been taken. Member schools of the IHSA agree to these rules and if they violate those rules, are subject to further action. That might include forfieting of more games or not being elgibile for post season games or losing summer practice rights. And at least the TASO admits that this action was not proper. This incident might cost this school as well as this official that were involved. If this had happen on a game I worked, I would not only be required to file a report with the state, and the school would have to answer to their actions. Same would be done if someone reported me from the school.

I agree, nothing good can come with confronting fans.

Peace

JR

What I meant was, the school has the ultimate authority over whom they hire. If a coach doesn't like an official the official is often "black-balled" and won't get games there again. That is the reality. Our association takes requests from schools for whom they want and don't want. We honor those requests.

In no way would I imply that the host school can influence an official during the contest. If I am doing a game, both schools have no authority except for safety issues during the game, e.g., condensation on the floor, roof leaking, fans out of control, power failures, etc. We would confer on those issues with the home game management.

Still our call.
 

Well that depends on the system you work under. Some schools work with assignors and do not have the opportunity to just "black-ball" an official because they do not like them. They might make a request and the assignor might decide not to assign the official to a bad situation, but if it comes down to what they want, it does not mean it is just agreed to. I know assignors that make it clear, if they do not like the official, then find someone else to do it or do it themselves. That depends on the system you work under.

Yes we can confer on all those issues, but we can also make an independent decision. And I have known officials that have cancelled or suspended games on their own. Ultimately it is our call. And usually that is with their help, but it is not just their call. And the rules makes it clear who has that decision.

Peace

I can come up with numerous scenarios where a ref's actions might cause you to end a game or pull a team from the floor. I gave two extreme examples. Doesn't matter if they apply to this case. What I am saying is that the rules deal with coaches and fans and teams and players, but do not anticipate extreme misbehavior by officials.

I would argue that everyone would have a point at which, if the officials did not call the game, they would call it themselves or pull their team from the floor. It might result in a forfeit at the time, and depending on what caused it, that forfeit could be overridden. I would also say that I have never run into any of these scenarios nor would I expect to run into them. But things can happen that the rules do not anticipate or account for. I am also not sure what precisely is alleged to have occurred in the Texas case, or whether what occurred would be sufficient reason to end the game. And other authorities will have to decide that.

But take the NC rule where the player flipped off the crowd and received an automatic ejection. If that is the standard, it logically extends to officials. It's just that the writers of the rules don't write that in because they don't anticipate that occurring. But if it is enough to disqualify one participant, it should be enough for any participant, IMO. Refs should meet at least as high a standard as players and coaches, if not higher. Players and coaches can leave the game, but the ref must stay. That means that when all else is going to hell around them, they must keep their heads. Sorry, but that's what y'all signed up for. And you can get rid of all the idiots that don't keep their heads.

Not the same coach.
 

I will only speak for my state. But official have been told that when we make decisions about ejections and forefeitures, those decisions are final. Our state does not recognize protests or revisit issues when an official makes a decision. That decision might be reviewed if the official did something not sactioned, but all the state will do is suspend or pull the license of an official for misconduct.

What NC does or what Texas does, it does not affect what the rest of the country might do. It is a great conversation piece, but it is not the standard in which all jurisdictions follow.

No, that is not what we signed up for. We signed up to be the ultimate authority on the court. We signed up to be the final word. Which we go thru more background checks than most coaches I know do. And if we violate those rules or guidelines, we might have to give up our license. But that does not mean we leave the game. We are not coaches, our conduct is not subject to a higher authority while that game is going on. It might be later and yes this official's conduct will be examined later and scrutinized unlike any coach that will be ejected from a game. A coach pops off and curses out the fans, if his school wants to keep him he can come back after a suspension.

Coach what you have not addressed is to what extent are you going to allow this to happen. You cannot have administrators with a rooting interest decide when the official goes or not. If you do, then you can do it for much less than what this official was removed for. No different than a lawyer cannot just remove a judge and not go thru a procedure. The procedure (which was stated in the story) was not followed. If you want to remove the official from having a license, no problem here. But you cannot remove me just because you do not like something they do. Sorry, you cannot give one rule that backs that up. Coaches, players and fans are addressed on how their conduct can remove them from the game. There is no such procedure unless you have a state rule that we are not aware of.

Peace

jrut
Situation:
You punch my player in the face because he protests a call. Your partner was busy reporting a foul and does not see it, but it is on tape. You swear to your partner that you did nothing of the kind and you both agree that to continue the game. I pull my team because I won't have you reffing my team since you have physically assaulted my player. You declare forfeit.

I am willing to bet I can get a revisitation of this forfeit in any state, we will replay the game, and you won't be reffing.

What exactly are you trying to equate this to? You're comparing a punch with a word? I think you're hurting your case rather than helping to make your case. This is ridiculous.

Why stop there? Let's be even more dramatic. Let's say the one ref pulls out an Uzi from inside his shirt and blows the kid away while the other ref is turned reporting to the table....and on and on it goes. It's nonsensical.

[Edited by Smitty on Jan 30th, 2004 at 05:31 PM]

People are stating an absolute rule that only the ref can end the contest. I disagree. Game admin can as well, and should do so only when extreme circumstances require it. When I try to argue that, I am given an absolute - game admin can't do it, because the rules don't say that they can. That's why I give an extreme example that everyone can agree with.

If everyone agrees in my case that game admin coulod have reason to end a game, then we are now only talking about degrees of severity here. What referee action is bad enough that game admin can take this action? It doesn't sound to me like this is the extreme case that would justify ejecting a ref, given the sketchiy info we have. But we honestly don't know what is alleged. So making absolute statements either way is unwarranted.

UPDATE - The latest!

Ref accused of making profane remark wants proof
08:41 PM CST on Friday, January 30, 2004
By DAVID McNABB / The Dallas Morning News

Basketball referee Floyd Woods said he has requested Mesquite Independent School District officials to present game video to support allegations that he had inappropriate interaction with spectators Tuesday.

A MISD administrator escorted Woods from the Mesquite Poteet gym after parents claimed Woods had directed a profanity at them. The Mesquite Poteet-Mesquite Horn girls game was suspended and resumed with different referees the next night.

Woods denied that he had any interaction with parents.

"I didn't have any eye contact," Woods said. " I didn't talk with anyone."

MISD officials said they are cooperating with the Dallas Basketball Officials Association's investigation and will turn over any video or information. Poteet coaches were having the game videotaped but said the camera is turned off while referees are setting up a free throw and turned on only when the player is shooting. The parents claim Woods made the remark between free throws.

Woods, a former president of DBOA, said he has never been cited for misconduct in his 19-year career. He still is fulfilling his officiating obligations.

We can eject coaches for things that has nothing to do with profanity. You cannot T us up for our behavior. My point is where do you draw the line. Because if no profanity was used, then what? Of course if an official gets into a physical fight that is another issue. But I have never seen that happen and probably never will.



Using profanity and pulling out an gun are totally different from each other. For one, pulling out a gun is going to get you put in jail. You did not just violate the rules, you broke a law. All I am saying is that profanity does not fit that mode. If you want to talk about other situations, maybe. But the administator has no business making calls on if an official stays or leaves. Not just because someone was offended. If you want to equate apples and oranges, go right ahead. Report yes, eject no.

Peace

If and only if the official poses a significant hazard to the safety of the players or commits some sort of crime during the game should game administration EVER have the authority to stop the game, regardless of whether the official was right or wrong in his actions. The officials are the sole authority in charge of the game, and had the situation between the crowd and the official grown so out of control that it impacted the conduct of the game (which it must have for GA to determine that ejection was its only recourse), then the gym should have been cleared of all spectators by GA and finished in an empty gym. The official is needed to continue the game and the crowd isn't, so eliminating the crowd would have been the best solution (particularly when it was the crowd and not the players who the official was feuding with). There is absolutely NO justification in this context for throwing the official out of the gym, I don't care if he got on the PA and swore at the crowd.

Of course every official is accountable for his actions after the game and ANY official who engages in gross misconduct will be reprimanded by their association. It reflects badly on all officials whenever someone behaves as is alleged by the school, but the proper course of action is to report the actions to a higher authority. This is especially true since there are no indications that the game was in any sort of jeopardy. The school should be strongly reprimanded for such action, to the point where the association should ding the school if it has the option or the power to do so.

SMEngmann

I think you said it best. There were other remedies to this situation. This was not one of them. If anything the fans that caused the problem should have been removed. And if they did not do anything as they claim, it still should have been handled after the game.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cmmsdm/...s/rolleyes.gif

Yeah right. You could fertilize a football field with that one.

We need the officials, we don't need the fans - I think those are excellent points made by SEngman - we could empty the gym and play, but I still wonder at a potential double standard - allowing an official to remain after doing something that might cause a player or coahc to be ejected.

One other point to consider with respect to this ugly situation. An official who has lost self control and sworn at the crowd - are we certain that this official can continue to do his job in a fair and unbiased manner? We are retaining the officials because they are the sole neutral authority here - but are they once this has occurred?

Schools do not contract directly with officials in my area -- they only contract with official's associations. In my association, schools/coaches can only "black-ball", (we call it scratch) 2 officials. If they don't like the way we call it, they can contract with another association. Two districts did this when we went to 3-person crews for all varsity games and the 2 districts did not want to pay for 3. We have been told that they are very unhappy with the quality of the other association. BTW, they do use 3-person crews from the other association, but at a cheaper fee.

I just wanted to reply on the interesting comments in this thread. We have to remember that Hawks Coach is just that, a coach. There are many coaches that probably wish a game could be suspended when something isn't going their way. His comments are from a coaches point of view. I would probably feel the same way if I were a coach. We shouldn't be in this to be popular so this situation should not surprise us. With the way society is right now this was bound to happen. On the one hand sportsmanship has went down the drain and whether we are officials or not, a human being only wants to take so much abuse. Once we get to the breaking point things happen. This official is only a man and there could have been many things going on in his life at that moment IF he did it. On the other hand, we live in a society where people lie about things all the time. I'm not going to compare it to anything cases going on around any mountains or anything but people lie when they don't get what they want. It was bound to happen when someone didn't get the calls they like.
Either way, this could be a step back for us as officials if this guy receives any kind of public punishment. We are already fighting a losing battle as it is.

If I can add my 2 cents worth: Hawks Coach knows that the bottomline authority of whether the game continues rests with the AD/Principal or whoever the highest ranking school employee in the gym is that night (like it or not that may even be the coach).

If whoever that is thinks that something going on during the game is way out of line and needs to be stopped they can tell the home team to change and go home, tell the Visitors/fans it is over and time to leave, turn of the scoreboard, and once the gym is cleared turn off the lights. The Ref at the time can claim they have complete jurisdiction over the game and declare a forfeit but if things ever got to a point that it was so bad the school official cancelled the game they probably aren't concerned over the win or loss anymore. -And depending on what happened/what the level of the game was, the principals may even be able to decide whether or not to replay or not.

This is not to justify or denounce what happaned. Just stating the reality that whoever is holding the keys to gym has ultimate authority of continuing or not-and will have to answer to their decisions the next day.

[Edited by oc on Feb 2nd, 2004 at 05:12 PM]

Re: Not the same coach.
 

I will also speak only for my state, but...


To become a coach, I had to:

--pass a criminal history check
--obtain a child abuse clearance
--submit a resume
--be interviewed twice
--be confirmed by an elected school board


To become an official, I had to:

--pay $25
--correctly answer 75 of 100 multiple-choice questions

After reading all of this discussion, I'm surprised the following scenario didn't occur:

Administrator approaches officials, tells the one that "swore" he's outta here. Partner T's the home team up for administrator verbally abusing the officials. Game continues with free throws to start the 3rd quarter.

That's how it would happen with me, and if the administrator persisted, I'd declare a forfeit. If the administrator raises a stink, I have the rule book to back me up and tell him to report me to my assignor.

Re: Re: Not the same coach.
 

I realize that your response was mainly to rebut the comment about who goes through more background checks. But I would hope every coach goes through some kind of background check based on the increasing number of occurrences of coaches abusing kids in one way or another. Coaches spend a lot of time alone with kids, on the court and in the locker room. Officials do not. That would explain any question about why all coaches should go through background checks and most officials probably wouldn't.

Only background check I had to go through as an official was one for the YMCA to work kids' games. Other than that, we just pay the fee, go to the rules meeting(s), and pass the test, then go to work.

I know when I worked for an association in Seattle, you had to go through a criminal background check.

It does happen in some places. Little League is stepping up its insistence on these things for anyone involved with the programs.

And the administrator turns and signels for the county police offer(s) on hand to escort the ref off of school grounds. The county school board or superintendent of schools the next day calls in the head off the officials association and reads him the riot act. Warns that the association will be blackballed if their refs don’t cleanup their act. The day after that, a designated member of the state board of education or the state superintendent of schools calls the state officials sanctioning body and tells them that all of this has really gotten out of hand. He/she reminds the official organization that the principal of a school has 100% control of everything that happens on school grounds. Any problems with the actions of the principal are handled through normal school channels.

[Edited by RecRef on Feb 2nd, 2004 at 10:56 AM]

Re: Re: Not the same coach.
 

That sounds all wonderful, but I have known coaches to be accused of child molestation chargers and have not had to lose their jobs. In my state if an official is just accused of a sexual assault of a minor or be accused of a drug felony, we can lose or get our licences suspended, no questions asked. No due process. And then if we are aquited, then we might be able to resume what we do. Many coaches are teachers and have unions and policies that prevent them from being fired. These things are not exactly the same thing.

Peace

I sometimes wish the game would end when we are getting thumped, but NEVER have I wished for a game to be suspended for how it was called or how we were doing.

This kind of comment is completely without basis and has nothing to do with anything I have stated in this thread. I have repeated stated that I would expect it to be an extreme circumstance for game management to feel they had to step in and end a game. And if I were either coach in this game, I would feel like my players lost out, even if the call had to be made to kick out a ref.

I hate games getting stopped for anything, snow, the other team forfeiting, - anything. I just love game day. While I might support a decision like this on further reflection, my initial reaction would probably be pretty negative.

RecRef, if the administrator turned to police to escort the referee out of the gym, I would hope he'd lose his administrative and teaching certificate/license and be blackballed to the point he/she couldn't get a job in education anywhere. This would go to the point that administrators have to know where to draw the line.

It sounds like the administrator in the original posting decided he agrees with the people who pays his salary more than the referee. If that becomes a habit, then my suggestion would be noone qualifies for an educational administrator certificate without becoming a sports official on top ot it. I know what I just said is probably blasphemous, but I don't care. There are some administrators out there who don't belong in the chair they were hired to fill.