backcourt

Ralph Stubenthal · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 26, 2004, 11:24am

I caught hell but I think I got it right. A1 is dribbling in his front court. B1 slaps the ball loose and it bounces off A1's knee before going to backcourt. A 1 rushes to backcourt and retrieves it. I called BC since the last possession was by team A in frontcourt before being touched last by A in frontcourt and then first touched by A in backcourt. Right or wrong? To me the key was last possession. Even if I did get it right, it was a hard sell.

Ralph

TriggerMN · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 26, 2004, 11:43am

You were right. And you're going to catch hell from 99% of coaches for this, because they don't understand the rule. Good job.

DJ · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 26, 2004, 12:35pm

Yes it was a great call and we are own enemy when we make calls that are not properly called because we send everyone a very mixed signal at times. Players, coaches and fans see it called one way so they assume they know the rule and then when another official makes the correct call the official that calls it properly catches the heat. Sometimes I would love to have a mike to switch on and explain the call like the NFL. Of course they still boo like fans are supposed to boo even after the explanation!! Now that I think about the mike, it is a bad idea because some of the calls I make I don't want to have to explain to anybody!

CYO Butch · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 26, 2004, 12:45pm

You made the correct call, and a few of us coaches will back you up on it. HOWEVER, this is about the dumbest rule going. I realize that a rule based on who gives impetus to the ball would be a lot harder to enforce and would probably produce just as many arguments, but it would make a lot more sense.

cmckenna · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 26, 2004, 01:07pm

Blew this one on Saturday..... Or at least my partner did....

Similar situation except ours was on a pass. A1 passing to A2, B1 tips ball up and back and A2 tips it into BC trying to recover.

I was trail and called BC, coach goes nuts, partner comes in and says that team control was lost on the pass and since there was no team control A could recover. He calls inadvertant whistle, A's ball.

Him 20 years + Me 3 yrs = Me lose

Bugged me all freakin day.

BigGref · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 26, 2004, 01:32pm

I saw this yesterday at a D1 Womens game (IU v Purdue).

Exact same situation, except during a throwin; It was ignored and play continued with a vocal Coach!

BktBallRef · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 26, 2004, 01:45pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CYO Butch
You made the correct call, and a few of us coaches will back you up on it. HOWEVER, this is about the dumbest rule going. I realize that a rule based on who gives impetus to the ball would be a lot harder to enforce and would probably produce just as many arguments, but it would make a lot more sense.

So, we apply that same philosophy to OOB situations:

A1 passes the ball to A2, but B2 deflects the ball.

The ball hits A2 and goes OOB.

Do you think "it would make a lot more sense" to give the ball to A?

mcdanrd · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 26, 2004, 02:12pm

BigGref, At least in NFHS This is not the same situation. There is no team control until the ball is in control of a player on the court. The ball can be tipped by the offensive team from the front court to the back court with no violation until player thus team control is established.

Quote:

Originally posted by BigGref
I saw this yesterday at a D1 Womens game (IU v Purdue).

Exact same situation, except during a throwin; It was ignored and play continued with a vocal Coach!

CYO Butch · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 26, 2004, 02:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by CYO Butch
You made the correct call, and a few of us coaches will back you up on it. HOWEVER, this is about the dumbest rule going. I realize that a rule based on who gives impetus to the ball would be a lot harder to enforce and would probably produce just as many arguments, but it would make a lot more sense.

So, we apply that same philosophy to OOB situations:

A1 passes the ball to A2, but B2 deflects the ball.

The ball hits A2 and goes OOB.

Do you think "it would make a lot more sense" to give the ball to A?

Ok, so now you're going to try to make me think consistently.

No offense at my new signature line, I'm not calling anyone petty.

Jurassic Referee · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 26, 2004, 05:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by cmckenna
Blew this one on Saturday..... Or at least my partner did....

Similar situation except ours was on a pass. A1 passing to A2, B1 tips ball up and back and A2 tips it into BC trying to recover.

I was trail and called BC, coach goes nuts, partner comes in and says that team control was lost on the pass and since there was no team control A could recover. He calls inadvertant whistle, A's ball.

Him 20 years + Me 3 yrs = Me lose

Bugged me all freakin day.

I guess that 20 years doesn't automatically buy you a clue. You had the play right. There was never a loss of team control by A in this play, just player control.Too bad that your partner didn't listen to you.

DownTownTonyBrown · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 26, 2004, 05:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CYO Butch
You made the correct call, and a few of us coaches will back you up on it. HOWEVER, this is about the dumbest rule going. I realize that a rule based on who gives impetus to the ball would be a lot harder to enforce and would probably produce just as many arguments, but it would make a lot more sense.

A pass that goes off the defense and then off the offense and into the back court is a bad pass. Offense deserves to loose it.

A dribbler that can't keep the ball away from the defense and has it hit off his feet into the back court is displaying poor dribbling/ball control. Offense deserves to loose it.

And the defense deserves to be rewarded for their good defense.

The only way to get rid of the backcourt call, and thereby get rid of appropriate reward for good defense, is to remove completly all backcourt violations... hey now we've got no 10 second violation (I mean we've got no reward for good backcourt defense).

Hawks Coach · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 27, 2004, 03:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by cmckenna
Blew this one on Saturday..... Or at least my partner did....

Similar situation except ours was on a pass. A1 passing to A2, B1 tips ball up and back and A2 tips it into BC trying to recover.

I was trail and called BC, coach goes nuts, partner comes in and says that team control was lost on the pass and since there was no team control A could recover. He calls inadvertant whistle, A's ball.

Him 20 years + Me 3 yrs = Me lose

Bugged me all freakin day.

Single biggest problem with backcourt is that people (refs and coaches) confuse having positive player control of the ball with team control. That is, once the players on a team lose control, people think there is no longer team control. If you actually read the rulebook, this clearly is not the case.

Dan_ref · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 27, 2004, 04:05pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mcdanrd
BigGref, At least in NFHS This is not the same situation. There is no team control until the ball is in control of a player on the court. The ball can be tipped by the offensive team from the front court to the back court with no violation until player thus team control is established.

Quote:

Originally posted by BigGref
I saw this yesterday at a D1 Womens game (IU v Purdue).

Exact same situation, except during a throwin; It was ignored and play continued with a vocal Coach!

FWIW under ncaa the team throwing in has team control. Backcourt & 3 second rules are "suspended" during this time.

Dan_ref · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 27, 2004, 04:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

Quote:

Originally posted by CYO Butch
You made the correct call, and a few of us coaches will back you up on it. HOWEVER, this is about the dumbest rule going. I realize that a rule based on who gives impetus to the ball would be a lot harder to enforce and would probably produce just as many arguments, but it would make a lot more sense.

A pass that goes off the defense and then off the offense and into the back court is a bad pass. Offense deserves to loose it.

A dribbler that can't keep the ball away from the defense and has it hit off his feet into the back court is displaying poor dribbling/ball control. Offense deserves to loose it.

And the defense deserves to be rewarded for their good defense.

Using this logic if B1 gets a hand on a pass but tips it OOB then B should get the ball. Makes no sense.

Quote:

The only way to get rid of the backcourt call, and thereby get rid of appropriate reward for good defense, is to remove completly all backcourt violations... hey now we've got no 10 second violation (I mean we've got no reward for good backcourt defense).

Women's ncaa has no 10 second BC count, seems to work for them.

missedthatone · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 27, 2004, 04:12pm

cannot believe what I am reading, refs really agree with this rule. I hate this rule, it makes no sense and it makes me look like an ***. Okay, it makes sense in very technical terms but look at this way: someone knocks away the ball into backcourt and you can go retrieve it with impunity, but if it happens to brush your leg as it gets knocked away, this is a backcourt violation. Makes no sense in practice. how can you say that you are just rewarding good defense, no , you are rewarding luck because the ball happened to touch an offense player last.

I have been hoping that they would change this rule for years. I still remember it getting called in the tourney two years ago, Duke-Indiana game and Mike DAvis went nuts