Watched a varsity game last night and saw this very thing happen. Lead official comes out signalling the table with a player control foul as center is going into the crowd and signals a block. They discussed it for about 3-4 mins. and I still wasn't sure what they did to handle the sitch. It is my understanding that in this sitch you report both fouls, wipe off any basket if made and use the APA to determine who gets the ball. Please correct me if I am wrong or if I left anything out.

Yes, it is a double foul.

4.19.7 SITUATION C:
A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is successful.

RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. An alternating-possession throw-in results.

In this situation, where A team has "scored basket" on the double foul, does the B team not automatically get possession of the ball for a throw-in?

No. Anytime a double foul occurs, the team with the arrow gets the ball.

In this play, the team with the AP arrow gets the ball at the spot nearest the foul for a throw-in.

If A team has arrow, does it mean that team B will be disadvantaged? as it would mean team A gets possession twice and has chance to score twice. Just curious.

Does it matter?
 

What difference does it make? That is the rule. It happens in many other situations. Why would this be any different?

Peace

Sure. I bet this gets enforced a lot. More than likely the two officials come together, decide whose primary it was in and report that one foul. I'm not saying that is the proper FED interp, cause it isn't, but I would bet this is what gets done most of the time a blarge happens.

No matter what happens, this is just a horrible situation. No one is going to be happy. Both coaches are going to think you are crazy for doing whatever. This is why this should be talked about in the pregame and you can prevent it.

Peace

Yuck. It's gotta be quicker.

So far (In my short career) I have never seen it happen as per the case book. But if both refs signal what they called without getting eye contact first they are stuck and should do it this way.

I agree. Almost had one the other night, to be honest. In your fine state, Mr. Rutledge.

I'm trail and player drive from my area (3 officials). Huge collision and to me the B player had, and never lost, legal guarding position. I go up with a fist (fortunately) because my L came out strong with a block, whacking his hips and shouting BLOCK. I was going to go the other way had this not happened -- I dropped my fist and slid down to take the L's place for the free throws.

I'm not saying I was right and he was wrong. We saw it differently, I guess.

Later in the same game, I'm C on ball and the ball handler on my side (L didn't have time to rotate over) hooks the defender going by. I signal strong, but for some reason use the college team control signal. Both partners asked me if it was player control (with a hand behind the head gesture) after I had gotten into position since we were in the bonus. Bad mechanics, so my partners didn't know what I had called. Don't think anyone noticed unless there were officials in the crowd.

I'll get it right one of these days....or move on to college ball where my mechanics would've been flawless. :)

Rich

Rich, I'm not following this. The call was a PC, right? The PC signal in men's is the same as fed - hand behind the head.

Oops, now maybe I get it. Did you use the woman's punch to signal the PC?

Yes, that's what I did. I never did this until I went to a women's camp this past summer. I only seem to do it when I'm outside, too.

Bad habits.

Has anyone ever gotten in a habit of having their back to the court when calling a ball out of bounds? I've done that a few times and KNOW I've done that. Only do it during 3-person. I find myself following the ball out of bounds in the corner, and instead of turning back towards the court, opening up, and signalling, I'm signalling facing the corner.

After doing it, I kick myself for a while. Doesn't mean I've broken the habit, though.

Rich

Yes, that's what I did. I never did this until I went to a women's camp this past summer. I only seem to do it when I'm outside, too.


[/B][/QUOTE]

Ever think of scheduling games indoors to improve your mechanics? :D

Pre game
 

I'm sure all this was discussed in the pregame? Three to four minutes seems like a long time but if they got the call right then it was the right thing to do!! Who cares how long anything takes as long as we get it right. It is a common procedure to talk about many calls as a group on a football crew. If the call was that close a double foul certainly would be better than one official getting his way because he has a stronger personality. That is not good officiating!

DJ,

I don't think anybody is saying speed up and get it wrong but if you have pre-gamed the play then you can get the hell out of a sticky situation faster than 3 or 4 minutes. But, you are correct, get it right no matter the time.

Mulk

Mulk,

I do not think he said to speed it up, just to speed it up. He said that the time it took looks even worse than if they had just come together and did what is right. Having a 5 minute conversation looks really bad. Yes, it looks bad. You already screwed up, now you have to have a debate over what to do next. You do not have 5 minute discussions on any other decisions made during the game, unless you have a fight or some really unusual situation that might not even be covered in the rules. This situation is covered and had only a one option to handle. And yes, if you discussed the possiblities of this happening, you can discuss what you are trying to avoid. We do it all the time in pregames across the country.

What is your issue with a pregame when anyone mentions it? Especially when this comes up about this issue? Do they not have pregames in your area? Do they not discuss the possible situations that might want to be avoided?

Why is this always an issue with you?

Peace

Rut,

We may have said it differently but I meant exactly the same thing that I think that you meant. Get both fouls reported, count basket(if applicable) and go to arrow. If you have pre-gamed this play, it should not take a long time to get it sorted out.

You must not have been reading my posts if you think that I think that pre-games are not important So, I will try this 1 more time.

I don't have a problem with pre-games. I come to these boards all the time for material for my pre-games. But, my point of view is that the pre-game itself will not stop a blarge in every situation. And, we try awfully hard to PREVENT in the pre-game. You might appreciate this, we have resorted to the C or trail that if they are going to go with a call on the collision to be moving toward the play hard so that maybe, just maybe it will be a little harder to come out with an immediate signal if they are moving to the play i.e. run toward it with only a fist. harder to run with the hand behind the head or your hand on your hips.

We do pre-game this play all the time and that works in most of the games in our group, but it still rears its ugly head from time to time. That is one of the reasons that I know that it takes more than a pre-game. So, be prepared to sort it out (quickly) if it occurs in people's (not your) games.

One other thing, I have never said it was acceptable or okay to have a blarge. but, I have seen it happen to very good officials.

No one has ever said that. No one has ever suggested the pre-games prevent everything all the time. Pre-games prevent a lot from happening and yes "blages" are very preventable. Sorry, they are. I cannot think of the last time I have seen one in any games I have watched. Have they happen in games, of course they have. But it is not very common, nor is it acceptable.

If this is happening to you from time to time, that is not a good thing. Of course it takes more than a pregame to prevent. You cannot go into a game the only thing that factors in is a pregame. Your experience level, your competence as an official, you experience with the mechanics that are being used and being patient to not signal when you know or realize that your partner might have a call. Especially now with the option to birddog. If you take a few steps into the foul, you are going to notice whether your partner called a foul or not. If you are not in a hurry, you can tell if your partner called a foul or not. It is never just one thing, but it should not happen and is not acceptable.

Welcome to the real world. Of course it can happen to good officials, but it should not happen at all and is extremely preventable. I should not forget who the shooter is and yes it has happen, but it is not at all acceptable when it has happen to me. And yes, that is why you have a pregame. The pregame is to also find out the philosophies of your partners so that you can go into the game with knowledge of how they want to handle things and how the conflicts with your personal philosophies and what they want to do. And in the end, you get on the same page so you can know how to handle a double whistle. Which is what happens first before you can have a "blarge" in the first place.

Peace

Um. . . huh? :confused:

Um. . . huh? :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]

Why is that confusing?

Mulk's claim is that speeding up the conversation should not be an issue. Getting it is. I do not think DJ made his comments about how bad it looked was the issue of getting it right. Talking for 5 minutes when there is only one option according the the casebook looks really bad. It looks like you are trying to just come up with something, rather than doing what the rulebook says. You do not have 5 minute conversations about an out of bounds play. You pregame that in order to make a decision and move on.

Peace

Why is that confusing? [/B][/QUOTE]Is that a serious question? How can that not be confusing? "I don't think he said to speed it up, just to speed it up." Ok, don't speed it up. But, oh by the way, speed it up. Thanks.

I understood both Ron's and DJ's point. I was merely pointing out your typo and trying (unsuccessfully) to be humorous. I think you meant to type "I do not think he said to speed it up, just to get it right." Right?

It was not a typo.
 

Why is that confusing? [/B][/QUOTE]Is that a serious question? How can that not be confusing? "I don't think he said to speed it up, just to speed it up." Ok, don't speed it up. But, oh by the way, speed it up. Thanks.

I understood both Ron's and DJ's point. I was merely pointing out your typo and trying (unsuccessfully) to be humorous. I think you meant to type "I do not think he said to speed it up, just to get it right." Right? [/B][/QUOTE]

Would it be better if I said, DJ did not say to "speed it up," for the sake of speeding it up?

If I recall, DJ made no statement about getting anything right. He was just saying that 5 minutes was a bit long to discuss the situation. Mulk was the only one that made a comment about getting it right. The reason (at least as far as I can see) was to get it right and the time they discussed the sitution was not relevent. But as far as I am concerned, it is relevent how long they talk about the situation. This is why I was backing DJ on what he said. It was very clear to me that the time that was decribed was a bit much. I happen to agree with that. And getting it right is not the end all be all of every situation. It does not take 5 minutes or should not take that long to discuss what to do if you have this happen.

Thank you Chuck once again. ;)

Peace

Would've been better if you'd just admitted it was a typo!
 

Absolutely. Then there would not have been any contradiction within the sentence. Personally, I think that's a good thing. :)

Then, you don't recall (not that there's anything wrong with that). DJ wrote:

You're very welcome! Always glad to help out when it comes to expressing oneself clearly; or remembering clearly. ;)

Did you make them shoot free throws because they were in the bonus? Am I reading this right? Why shoot free throws after a PC?

No, we didn't shoot. My partners just wanted to verify that it was a PC since it was the 8th foul and if it WASN'T a PC we would've been shooting.

Mulk's claim is that speeding up the conversation should not be an issue. Getting it is.

Rut,

I may have misunderstood DJ's post, but you CERTAINLY misunderstood mine. It should NOT take very long to sort out this situation.

Mulk

You are the boss.
 

OK, whatever you say. :rolleyes:

Peace