This is a spin off of the one liner thread...I had a FR and JV coach Friday night letting me know the foul count was 8-4 and 7-2 respectively. I actually havent heard this line too many times this year and my usual reaction to it is no reaction. I have heard guys that will challenge the coach if the opportunity presents itself by saying something along the lines of "Are you questioning my integrity?" or "Are you accusing me of cheating?". My knee jerk reaction to those lines are they seem to send the interaction down a potential path of no return.

Back to Friday, these two math wizards kept at it and finally in the JV game I was table side in lead, two man. I had heard it one too many times and finally replied "Stop fouling". Somehow this worked but I dont know how ideal it is as an answer to Mr. Foulcounterton.

Old guys...how do you handle?

Larks
VIT


[Edited by Larks on Jan 19th, 2004 at 03:02 PM]

I used to make that comment and they would just shut up after that or apologize for suggesting such a thing. But now I just say, "OK" and go right back to what I was doing. Because I am not going to change what I am calling because the foul differential is different. One team might be playing a full court man to man defense and the other team is playing a sagging zone. One team is attacking the basket, the other team is settling for 3 pointers. One team might have talent, the other team does not. You cannot just even it up or worry about that because they complain. Because it is funny you never hear them complain when they only have 2 and the other team has 10. ;)

Peace

Although I am not an old guy, I will throw my two cents in. If the coach just mentions it, I might not say anything in return. He may just want you to be aware of the foul count to try and gain an "edge" as some officials may get worried about it and call something that they might normally pass on. Doesn't work on me but....

If the coach is actually making an issue of it and approaches the situation with some degree of professionlaism, I might respond you are right coach but you are pressing and playing man to man and they are playing a zone and you are shooting jumpers (for example).

Lastly if the coach is being a jacka$$ about it and implying that we are not being fair, I will tell him that the count "is what it is and we are calling the game as we see it." End of conversation, if he persists with it he may end up with a T because the implication is the we are cheating. I won't have that.

The key to handling a lopsided foul count is to make sure that you don't miss one on the team that has the lower count. I am not advocating looking for something to call or making something up, however if there is an actual foul that creates an advantage for the other team and you miss it or pass on it the coach will give it to you and you don't have any ground to stand on to defend yourself ;)

For what its worth....

If I'm in a good mood: "OK coach."
If I'm not in a good mood: "That's a coaching issue, maybe talk to your players about it."

nothing
 

What am I going to say about a lopsided foul count? Nothing unless, he has too many other things he doesn't like about my officiating or it continues after each foul is called. If it is chronic I will take care of it early and try to give a warning to the coach in many variety of ways depending on the situation. However if I give one warning the next time will always result in the penalty(T) because I will only warn one time and only if given the opportunity to warn. Sometimes there is no opportunity to warn and if so, well that's the way it is. I give so few technicals that I consider it to be a priviledge to get one from me although no one has ever thanked me for giving them one!! I will always work with a coach if he is willing to work with me!

Interpetation
 

"many variety" ain't good grammar!!! Please work through my handicap!!

The other day I heard my partner's response to the lopsided foul complaint: "We don't count 'em, we just call 'em."
It worked to quiet that particular coach (in that particular game).

In a recent game an experienced ref in our association who I am supposed to be nice to if I want to move up warned me and our other partner (3 man) that the fouls were getting lopsided and we need to stop calling tickey-tack fouls. He may have had a point about some of the foul calls not being great as I am still working on advantage/disadvantage but the count at the time was 7-3. I don't consider 7-3 lopsided. I know we aren't supposed to get to worried about lopsided foul counts but I'll admit I do if it gets to 7-0 or 10-1 but not 7-3. --But I was a good boy and nodded my head.

Later he brought it up again between the JV and V game. I nodded my head-keeping my reservations to myself. The V game was going great and I was starting to get into a zone when it all fell apart in on one play. We had been reminded a couple times to ignore the small stuff by Mr. Big time and I was. Play right in front of me: A1 gets contact from B1 and B2 going to the hoop and actually loses the ball before recovering and putting up a shot-missed rebound over into the senior refs zone and he calles a foul on the put back. Coach A gets all over me for no calling the first shot. Now the lost ball was a clean swipe by B1 and I had the best angle-- good no call. The shot a second later after A1 recovered the ball might very well have been a bad no call by me-and I probably would have called it earlier but been trying to ignore some contact.

Me to Coach: "I didn't see anything, but will watch for it."

Coach: "Sure you did, I saw it from here"

I ignore the comment and go to administer the ensuing free throw. Before I can my senior partner says "Tighten it up, Rich" Loud enough for players and Coach A to here.---I was pissed! Even if i did kick the call chew me out later or say the same thing on the side. I got all credability pulled from me on that one play.

Any advice on what if anything I should have said to my P?


FYI-After the game I asked what to do when the count is 7-3 but one team is doing all the pressing and is much more aggressive. I didn't get a very good answer.

oc, just hang in there and pay your dues. Things will get better.

I used to work with a partner when I started who had been around for years. He was always concerned about the foul count on both the team and the players. I believe that a good official calls each play on its own merits. You should call the play the same no matter what the game situation. I heard a new one from a coach thursday night that I'm trying to figure out. He said, "just because we're more aggressive, doesn't mean that we foul more!" I would have agreed if his aggressive players had any control. Don't worry about the team fouls. If the coach wants to get fewer fouls he should tell his team not to foul. But its easier to blame the officials.

That says it all right there.

You need to ask other officials in the area about this guy. You might be surprised as to what they think about him. ;)

Peace

OC: I can understand your frustration. You are trying to be cooperative and follow "orders" from a BIG TIME GONNA GET ME MOVED UP ref. You actually alter your usual way of calling a game to such a degree that it gets you into trouble. THEN, after "brow beating" you into making these poor choices, he hangs you out to dry.
I can also understand avoiding every little ticky-tacky foul, but don't sell out under this pressure and be disgusted and disappointed in yourself. You are being required to disregard (pass on) fouls to "even things up." This all due to some power vet's big shot philosophy (a sure formula for loss of control and disaster). How can this possibly be molding you into a better official? Being true to yourself (and the game) may be more important than moving up in this guy's shadow (for lack of a better word).
The way he "manages" a game has resulted in your loss of respect for him, if you ever had any. Hang in there, work hard, and call your best game every time. It will pay off at the end of the day.

I've had it go both ways (foul deficit and foul surplus for our team), but for quite some time last year, we were doing a great job of putting the foul count in our favor. And it was an explicit goal to get to the line twice as much as our opponents. Simple matter of attacking the basket on every possession, blocking out well on rebounds on both ends, moving our feet on defense. It's amazing how good basketball has good results on the scoreboard, and not only with respect to the score.

Don't try to even the foul count, call the game evenly and the foul count will reflect how the game was played.

I've used that one a few times, it's always worked.

"Are you questioning my integrity" is really just setting the stage for an unnecessary T. What if he says "you bet"?

I don't think much of a reply is warranted. Certainly there is no reason to up the hostility level by bringing your integrity into the discussion. You begin to sound defensive, as though integrity should be an issue. You also may leave the impression that you have been personally insulted, so that from here forward your impartiality may be subject to question.

Ignore it, if that doesn't work, let him know you have heard enough (no T warning - just a stop sign and I've heard enough coach), and if he persist, the T.

If you do not want us to react to that statement, do not make that statement. Because what the foul count, has nothing to do with the game. Unless you are trying to suggest that we are cheating, because we called more fouls on your team instead of the other team. It might sound defensive, but it is a way to give the coach an out. Because if you do question my integrity, I am going to T you for sure. I agree you do not want to challenge coaches as a regular practice, but sometimes a line needs to be drawn in the sand. Because if you want to tell me what the foul count is (probably something we already know to begin with), then you open yourself up for a response. ;)

Peace

Actually I already know what alot of guys think about him. As my mentor said last year, "The thing you need to remember about X is, he is an A------." And this is from a guy who gets along with him.

If that is what they think.......
 

If he is an A------ like you say, why put so much stock into what he says? Is there no one else to put that kind of confidence in? Be professional, but I would not go out of my way to worry about what this individual said to me. Tell the story to someone you trust and they might take issue with him on their own. Other than that, life should go on.

Peace

This "vet" official may not get you as far as you think or have been led to believe. Pick your mentors carefully and listen to the rest with caution. I always have taken the stand that my mentors have earned that designation from me. No battles with this guy but do not overly influence you or your feelings about your game.

after the score, the next thing the head coach will complain about is the foul count.

to be honest, often i have no idea that a foul count gets lopsided, i.e., 7-2, 8-4, etc...if i notice, or a coach interjects; i will look at that count and 'not make up fouls', but if the foul presents itself, i will take the opportunity to even the foul situation out...

My standard response is, "What are you trying to say?" (I know he is trying to work us or say that we are cheating without using the dreaded "C" word).

Standard response is "well, it is 7-2" or whatever.

My response is, "OK, you said that already."

If he is dumb enough to go on, I will pin him on the cheating issue until he quits or says "cheat" in some form which, of course, is followed by a T which now makes the count 8-2 or whatever.

The strategy is to put the ball in their court and make them respond to why they want to talk about it. The generally lose interest quickly.

Also for those that think this leads to a path with an "unwarranted" T at the end, he started the conversation and it has to do with me being a cheater. How is that unwarranted?

Coach - "The fouls are 7-2."
Me - "and??"

Never have heard a reply (if 3 for 3 counts as never).

Or
Coach - "the fouls are 7-2"
me - "and the score is 30-10. Anything else needed to be known?"

lopsided foul count
 

This comment from coaches has to be one of my biggest pet peeves. Invariably it comes from a coach whose team is on on the short end of the score. You never hear a coach with the lead saying that. Coaches who say this are simply trying to find a way to justify the score without admitting his/her team simply does not know how to defend. Everytime I hear an opposing coach yell that I am tempted to say "Well, if you'd teach them how to play defense, perhaps the foul count wouldn't be what it is." Sorry to state what everyone already knows but as I said this is without question, my biggest peeve with some opposing coaches.

jrut
You have never heard me say this and you never will. My only point about responding in kind to this type of statement is you are sinking to the level of the person that makes it, rather than just reffing the game.

I am fine if you feel an immediate T is warranted. I just think that if you aren't going to T, make a more neutral response that does not bring your character into the conversation. YOU control the direction of the discussion, if there is one, not the jerk that makes this comment. He has inplied that you have not been fair, don't give any credence to this type of implication by making the statement explicit.

Referee your game, if you need improvement, then let it come by experience or through mentors or other officials. When you are a good official the game will find you. You do not and should not adjust your game to satisfy one official. That doesn't mean you can't learn something from that official. After every game ask your partners what the saw that you can do to make your game better.

As for responses to coaches, a question deserves an answer, a statement is NO response. And keep your respones to no more than three words. This means you have to practice at home the responses so you will be ready. Example; You T a player for saying he shouldn't have to the opponent or you. Coach; What did he do? Official; Taunting or unsportsmanship. If you don't want to repeat what the player said, then tell the coach to, "ask your player".

[Edited by Bart Tyson on Jan 20th, 2004 at 08:56 AM]

My response, loud enough for everyone in the area to hear:

"I'm just calling it the way you begged me to during pre-game, Mr. Bigtime!!"

Tempting, but no. Airing your differences with your partner in front of the players can only hurt your credibility as a crew. His behavior is unacceptable. Don't respond in kind.

Howler Monkey: "The fouls are 7 to 2!"
Ref: "Really? Thanks for reminding me about the bonus. I appreciate it."

On a few occassions that I've heard this and that team is in the lead, I've said...

If I even out the fouls, I'd have to also even out the score.

I rarely say things like this to a coach but it can be done with those with which you have a solid history.

They're usually quite happy to concede the foul count when it pointed out that they have a lead that is largely due to their aggressive play.

Just an opinion.
 

Questioning the integrity of me or my partner's is an automatic T for me. I just want to make sure that is not what the coach is doing, and let them know just like anything else, trying to do so is totally unacceptable. It is not lowering ourselves to make a "preventative" comment to a coach who is going past what is acceptable. First of all you cannot question our judgment to begin with. I have no problem with you getting upset about whether I should have called a block, but to say the foul count is out of wack for some reason (when we are not even considering the style of play involved), then we have a problem. Because if they say 7-2 and 8-2 and 9-2, then the next comment might be, "you are not calling anything for our team, you must be from here." Then I have to stick you. So I think it is better to nip this crap in the bud before the coach starts making further comments.

Peace

We have a coach that would stand up and yell when he would have 7 fouls and the visitors would have 2..."How can the fouls be 7 to 2 on my home court?!" My reaction -- he can read the scoreboard and is paying attention.

The game always dictates the foul count. An aggressive team vs. a passive team usually tends to have a lopsided foul count. Not much you can do.

In this case, our goal should be to resolve the situation, or end the conversation. Stop sign, that's enough, whatever it takes.

"The foul count is 7-2" is not enough for a T. So how can you justify T'ing a coach after baiting him?

My Momma always said
 

It takes TWO to fight.

The only thing you can do without taking the next step toward really getting that fight going is to acknowledge the coach. Don't say anything; look him/her in the eye and shake your head yes; and run on by.

Anything else, anything smartasslike, is only going to exacerbate the issue. Don't be the second man into the fight.

Don't let this be an issue of your integrity/credibility. You, personally determine those qualities about yourself and it is only when you respond to the coach's goad that you endanger your integrity or credibility. Don't engage and you will maintain your integrity.

If the coach really wants to hound you about something then you must engage. Non-emotional; you stepped over the line and the penalty is T-bone. I can't imagine that occurring for questioning the foul count. It would have to be quite severe for that topic.

Stupid is as stupid does... and sometimes we're stupid... we engage. Done it myself. Two seconds of ignoring and running away would have solved the problem ... for the remainder of the game. Hold-on. Concentrate on the play and keep going.

just my quarter. Tony

Read the whole post. I never said that saying the foul cout is whatever is justification for a T. I said that if a coach starts the coversation, he put himself on the path that leads to a T. I don't believe we are baiting the coach by continuing a conversation that is really about him saying that we are cheating for the other team, especially if he starts the conversation.

I agree that we should stop the conversation if at all possible, but some coaches won't let it go. Make them call you a cheater (that is what they are implying anyway), give them the T and be done with it. Totally justified.

I agree (kind of long, sorry).
 

I totally agree with you on this. We are not starting anything by commenting on what the coach said. They are the one that are trying to call us out and if we allow that to happen or to continue, what else will they call us? If you do not want me to react, do not call me a "cheater." Just because you did not use that word, what else could you be implying? Again, they do not say anything to us when 7-2 is in their favor do they? So why all the crap when it is not? Our commenting is just trying to give them a chance to think about what they are saying. If they really think about it, they might just back off. But I do not want the "7-2" comments to go on all night when it is clear I am not purposely doing anything to make that happen. I have usually past 20 schools to get to that one, and if that team is on the road, I did not ask to do a game in most cases with them there. I officiate, like many where I am asked to go. I have no vendetta to fullfill. So telling me the foul count is out of line in my opinion.

A short story. I did a Div. 3 college game about 2 years ago at a school in Indiana. The visiting team was from Florida. Come to find out the coach and AD had ties to this particular school they were playing in Indiana and the Chicago area. The assignor is from a Chicago suburb, both my partners are from Chicago area as well. We all drove together which was about a 2 hour drive to this school. So neither the officials or assignor had anything directly to do with this school in Indiana at all. In the first half, the Florida coach made this comment to me when the foul count was not in his favor. "I am from Indiana too." I said right back to him, "I am not from Indiana." Let me ask you this, what do you think he was implying? Well in the second half, the script completely flipped. The Florida team started out playing more aggressive and the fouls pretty much flipped in the other way. Now the Florida team had less fouls called on them and the Indiana team was getting called for just about everything because they were getting completely out hustled. The Indiana coach did not say another word the entire night after our little conversation. And considering how things turned out, we could not have been screwing him at all. But it my comments made him think and he had to at least pause and think about what I said to him. The same goes when a coach is screaming the foul count and we comment. ;)

Peace

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cmmsdm/...s/rolleyes.gif


Okay, two things.

First, READ MY POST carefully (sorry, that comment always irritates me). I didn't say that YOU said the comment alone was worth a T. I stated that IF the comment alone isn't a T, how can we justify a T a short time later because we used the initial comment to bait him into some kind of argument?

Second, the 7-2 comment is only a question against integrity if we make it that way. Honestly, for me, if a coach says the fouls are 7-2, I NEVER think he's accusing me of cheating - I just think that he just feels we're missing too many fouls on the other team. Coach, of course, is full of it, and has no idea what they're talking about ;)

My beef here is the idea that instead of trying to diffuse the situation, officials become confrontational - like the "are you accusing me of cheating" response. All of a sudden it's "we-them", and the chances of a coach escalating to the point where we have no choice but to T him increase dramatically. And MY point is this: we may be just as responsible for the situation as he is.

Granted, "Stop fouling" isn't the greatest either, but neither is it to be used without discretion (like all the stuff we say, right?), or without the right context. Would I say it to a coach who's really steamed? No way. If the "7-2" remark was more even keel? Maybe. More likely, I'd try to find a different way to make it go away.

Rut, if a coach is outright accusing you of cheating, I agree, it's wrong, and if he's really making a public display of it, my goodness, W-H-A-C-K away. But I don't think that's the same as the scenario that originally started this thread.

"Confrontational?"
 

I think that saying the what the foul total is, to me is very much a suggestion of cheating. Just because they do not say "cheater," does not make their comments any less right. I do not think anyone would call anyone "confrontational" if we told a coach to get back into the box or to giving them the hand (stop sign) when we talk to them. We have the right and should address bad behavior. Or if we comment on a call we made when they are in our ear, I really do not see anyone saying that makes us confrontational. I am not asking those to just agree, but I think to try to make it into an issue that the official has no right to say anything is a stretch. Many times the coach is not just commenting, he might be asking a question while saying what the foul total is. Most of the time they are talking directly to me or my partners when they make those comments. What else are we suppose to say to them? If they are speaking direcly at us, why not say something?

Peace

Without doubt, you certainly can be classified as an optimist, when it comes to officiating.

I'm a pessimist when it comes to comments like this.

Actually, I agree with canuckrefguy. Most coaches don't think your cheating, they believe that somehow the calls are just going against them for no apparent reason. You would not believe how many coaches I talk to that explain a loss by saying every call down the stretch went against them. And they don't think the ref cheated, they just think the ref somehow only missed calls when his player got fouled or made questionable foul calls when his player played good defense.

So yes, do believe that you change the nature of a conversation by bringing cheating up. Realize I am not asking you to be silent, I am just saying that there are many ways you can shut this kind of comment down without putting your personal integrity or a perceived slight to it into explicit question, when the question has been indirect at best until you bring it up explicitly.

There are a lot of things I do not say.
 

I do not care what the nature of the conversation is. You do not want me to accuse you of something, keep your mouth shut about that issue. And I have never had a problem with making my point and getting them to shut up. I do not care what they think, I think a lot of things and never say them. So I suggest they do the same. Again, say what I call is bad. Say that I was not in position. But do not try to suggest (because it is more about who hears you as well) the foul count is a result of something else. That is what that comment does. And yes, I will address it. ;)

Peace

Thanks, coach (boy feels nice to say that and really mean it :D), couldn't have said it better myself.

It's one thing for coaches to cross the line, it's another thing if we push them there.

Re: There are a lot of things I do not say.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

And I have never had a problem with making my point and getting them to shut up. I do not care what they think, I think a lot of things and never say them.

This speaks volumes - it seems this is all about you. I am recommending a less egocentric approach. You seem to believe that it is important that you make a point. I think you need not lower yourself to making points. It is in the nature of coaching to try to make points. We should make points to players rather than refs, but many obviously do not make this distinction. and we all find a need from time to time, as partisans in a contest, to make points.

Refs are not there to be partisan members of a discussion. Your comments are about defending your honor, which makes you a less than neutral member of this conversation. This distinction that I am making either escapes you or you find to be irrelevant. We will obviously disagree on this.

And by the way, if you don't always say everything that you think, then exercise that discretion in this case and don't tell them that you think they suggested you were cheating. that is perfectly in line with how you say you live your life.

Quote:

But do not try to suggest (because it is more about who hears you as well) the foul count is a result of something else. That is what that comment does. And yes, I will address it. ;)

The first part of this indicates a concern with your image. Again, the primary listeners are the home crowd and the participants. I don't think the home crowd thinks you are homering them, and I don't think you can change an opinion of the coaches and players on the visiting team if they believe they are getting homered. But usually, nobody thinks you are cheating, they think you are missing things. And usually they have been telling you about that all along and your calls haven't changed, with the result that they now percieve the foul count to be a factor of all the calls you screwed up.

Go ahead and raise the issue of cheating. But do not fail to understand that this is an issue that you have constructed in your mind and you are now constructing in the mind of everyone who hears your comment. And if they didn't think that you were cheating when they made the comment, your response may sound to the listener like maybe they should have considered this possibility. The listener may simply think that the only reason you mentioned cheating when they never did is that cheating is actually occurring. That's the final risk you take in steering the conversation into places that it has on;ly previously been in your mind.

Re: Re: There are a lot of things I do not say.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge Quote: And I have never had a problem with making my point and getting them to shut up. I do not care what they think, I think a lot of things and never say them. This speaks volumes - it seems this is all about you. I am recommending a less egocentric approach. You seem to believe that it is important that you make a point. I think you need not lower yourself to making points.

Coach, I don't know in what context Rut brought this up but I agree with it 100%. Sometimes the goal is to just get the coach to shut up so you can concentrate on the game. Speaking for myself, I never care one way or the other what the coach thinks. I just don't want him ruining my game (yeah yeah I know it's the kids game I need to be less egocentric it's not about me....but it is about me because when the game goes in the toilet no one is going to call you and demand an explanation. :) )

Dan
Do you have to tell the coach that you think he called you a cheater in order to shut him up? Mind you I never suggested you shouldn't shut him up - I clearly have argued you should. We are only discussing what words you use and don't use, and what you bring into the conversation. I know refs can shut coaches up without ever mentioning themselves. Mission accomplished.

response
 

The first time I hear this I will just ignore it and generally speaking things will probably even up in the course of a game. However, if they don't even up and I hear it again or again we now have a problem that needs to be taken care of and you can find your officiating style ie. comedian, confrontational or diplomat and figure out how you will handle it. This is a skill that depends on your personality and experience and if you are talented you will handle it in a way that works for all parties involved. If you can handle confrontation in a variety of ways and situations you have a skill or talent that is invaluable as an official! There is never a single cure all for all situations. Learn to be resilient and think on the run and you schedule will reflect you talents.

Sorry
 

One of these days I will learn to proof read my post. Thanks for your patience.

Well, as I said I don't know the context since I haven't been following this thread. But I will admit I have asked this question ("Coach, you're not saying I'm cheating, are you?") in a semi-joking manner. I no longer do this because one fine day the answer will be "Damn right I think you're cheating!" or even worse "Nah, I just think you're doing a sh!tty job". And as you say this does not accomplish my mission and worse I have carried my opponent's ammunition for him. ;)

Awesome
 

Wow, what a great discussion.

HawksCoach- How very valuable to get some insight from the other side of the stripes! I happen to agree with you in this case. I will not be a party to escalating a situation with a coach. The ability to diffuse the situation is a better measure of my skills as an official.

In regards to foul count: It has now been brought to my attention. I don't think I ever make a response to that "7-2" comment. I figure I am in one of two situations. First, I'll consider the ball game and ask my self, "Does it seem like an evenly played game with respect to fouls?" If my answer is positive, I will make sure that I am seeing the game equally on both sides of the court and alter the way I see the game to make sure I am calling a fair contest. If I determine that in fact one team is fouling more, I will continue to call the game the way I have been however unfortunate it may be for the upset coach.

Jrut- Maybe I am crazy. I do care what the coaches and others think of me. I want all the coaches to believe that I am doing a fair and objective job officiating the ball game. I don't obsess over this or allow this ‘care’ to affect how I make calls.
I have been a coach and know how easy it is to make the ref a scapegoat. I will allow some leeway. I never let him show me up and there is an art to putting the coach in his place while allowing him to maintain his integrity with his players and fans. I try to make my point without any resentment.

Let’s all save face. I get to be the one to make the calls. Just because I get to have the last word doesn’t mean I should lead the discussion down the path to make the final word so harsh.

Coach: fouls are 7-2, or Thats a foul, or over the back, or he push off, or hand check, or get um off, or she's not that bad of a shooter, or traveling, or that was out on blue. I could go on and on. I guess you can make a case that all these comments are calling you a cheater. WOW I've been cheating a long time and didn't even know it. I have some catching up to do. I'm going to practice my "T" signal before Saturday's game.

Why you are a coach.
 

Hawk Coach,

I think you do not understand the peeking order here. Officials have the authority over the game, whether you like it or not. We decide what we want to tolerate and not tolerate. Every single official is different and every one might not agree on this or many other situation. I look at this comment much different than a coach yelling about something else. But even if a coach is crying about "over the back" all night, at some point I will and my partners will tell that coach in so many words to "shut up." Because I am not going to set there all night and listen to a whinning coach, complain how nothing is going his way and how he cannot get a call. At some point, let it go.

I officiate 3 sports and in all of them there are times when officials have to stay something to a coach. For one, most of you are a bunch of babies and cannot function without someone giving you an explaination, even when you do not deserve one. But to say that my commenting to a coach who is talking to me, as being confrontational, not sure what world that is from. Do not make it sound like a coach saying "the fouls are 7-2" are not directed at a specific official. And I have never said that the comments that were made back had to be a leacture. But I can say a couple of words and he knows where I stand and if he wants to continue to go down that road, then he was warned or told. Would you rather me just T the coach without saying anything? Maybe that is what we should do. We should just T any coach that makes any comment that questions our judgment. The rules support that. I think that makes better since. Then you will not feel we did you wrong or gave you an opportunity to make it right.

If officials commenting to coaches about what they are saying to them is confrontational, then every well respected official I know in several sports are confrontational. Certainly every NFL officials is confrontational, just watch NFL films. They are always commenting on what coaches are screaming and yelling about. Major League Umpires are confrontational, hell, they have a Manager storming out of the box yelling and screaming at them, telling them what position they were in. And any basketball official is confrontation, considering coaches are talking right in their ear about the foul total. Maybe you have a lot of 2 person crews, but we do 3 around these parts. When a coach makes most of their comments, were are within 10-15 feet of where the coach is standing. And we use the 14 foot coaching box to make it easier for them to comment. But I guess we cannot comment, you think it is confrontational?

Peace

Confrontaional?
 

After reading the last post, confrontational? Do you sound confrontational? Don't resemble that remarck? Not me!!

Baseball
 

Now those guys are confrontational! I love it when they get up on there toes and stick out their chests and start spitting in each others face as they argue a point and then give the ejection siganl!! So much for diplomacy!!

Jrut-

Is every game you call perfect? Has a coach ever been correct about a game situation? Have you ever been in a situation where you watched you partner butcher a call and the coach was on him about it, you knew the coach was right?

The point is- we are imperfect and we should all be trying to get better and handle every situation better. Isn't that why we use the forum? To learn from others experiences.

You sound like a very experienced official (3 sports). You spend time on the forum reading and sharing. Your posts read like you have a very hard line on this. Is it possible that a coach is noticing what could be an inequality and it is coming out as frustration? And, if that is the case- do we really want to continue to referee the game with inequality? I believe that you are passionate enough about your profession to fix a mistake if you happen to make one.

Even when comments come out as frustration- we have duty for the game to keep coaches in check. You are right! Is there a way to do this with out bringing up cheating? Can't we give the coaches the benifit of the doubt that they don't think we are cheating? For the good of the game?

Before you respond- please consider what I am suggesting. Not letting a coach get away with inappropriate criticism; that cannot happen. Rather, listening-considering-gracefully diffusing-moving on.

Well, I'm weighing in a little late on this post, but here's my two cents worth:

I agree with Hawks Coach. As a coach/player/fan, I have complained long and loud about various howler topics, but I have never suspected I was being cheated by a referee. I've always just chalked it up, most of the time erroneously, to a referee doing a "bad job". If a referee asked me if I thought he was cheating, I think I would be taken aback. My complaining is on a, ahem, professional level. Calling someone a cheater is a personal thing. As one of the other posters said, my complaints of a foul discrepancy fit in the same category as "he was fouled!", "he's been carrying the ball all night!", etc. Its probably more of an attempt to try to get the referee to see "my" side, than anything else. Don't take the vast majority of criticisms personally. They're not meant to be.

The bottom line on this one is that the coaches who make comments like this are simply taking their chances. Anybody who thinks that they're making these comments for any other reason than to "work" you must believe in the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy also.

They might get a "Mr. Nice Guy" like you. They might also get a hard a$$, like I have a tendency to be sometime. If they're gonna make the comment, then they've got no complaints if somebody does happen to T them up. And I'm not gonna second-guess the guy who T'd him up either. Just like I'm not gonna second-guess the guy who used diplomacy. Each official sets their own limit, and then they do whatever works best for them. A smart coach will know his officials before he makes comments like this, anyway.

[/B][/QUOTE] A smart coach ... [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmmmmm

Just like Bobby Brown used to sing.
 

What does any of that have to do with the conversation we are having?

We are hear to learn from other's experience, we are not here (at least I am not) to agree with everything thing that is said, especially one from a coach. Because I do not know any official that agrees with each other on everything. And because you have a point of view, does not make it right for me, nor is that the right way to handle a situation.

I did not realize frustration gave you a pass to say what ever you like. But I will remember that next time for sure.

The foul total is not my mistake. Chances are, I did not call all the fouls. Chances are, I might not even called all the fouls to make the inequality in the foul totals. I can speak for myself, usually when the foul total is different, it is because one team is playing one way, the other team is playing another. Or at the very least, one team is being out coached, while the other team is trying to find excuses.

Who said anything about using the words "cheating?" I have said that the words I use is "integrity." If you are trying to suggest I have none, then I have the right to comment. Just like I have the right to say something to a coach that "knows" I saw something I was not even looking at a particular play, "HE" thinks I was. I guess when I am standing in front of him and I am asked about that, I have no right to comment then either? If a coach tells me, "you saw that play," when I am watching something completely different, I might say to him, "my partner had a great look at that play." Now does that make me confrontational to make that comment? According to the comments that have been said to me, it has to be confrontational. Because anytime we say something, we are out of line. At least according to Hawk Coach.

What is there to consider? That I totally disagree with your point of view on this? Because that is all there is to consider. The last time I gave a T on a coach, it was for a comment that questioned my competency and the words he used were "READ A RULEBOOK, READ A RULEBOOK, READ A RULEBOOK!!!" Now that was last January a year ago. It was the first T I have given for conduct on a coach or player in about 2 years from that point. So I guess I should have turned the other cheek and walked away when those comments were made because he was frustrated and did not get his way. By the way, I was not only right(based on the rule he was complaining about), but most officials I talked to off this board agreed that he needed to be dealt with. Only people on this board said, "you did the wrong thing." So I guess that shows who I listen to. All of us are different. If you want to handle the situation differently, that is your prerogative. But it works for me and that is all that is important in my world. If it works for you to let a coach call you what is essentially a "cheater" without saying anything, more power to you.

Peace

Fair is fair!
 

There is nothing the matter with a coach expressing his views on any issue concerning my officiating. The only time I get tired of a coaches view is if it gets to be a play by play of my officiating. When it starts to be too much like a play by play the coach is starting to lose his credibility and I will defend my turf and handle it in a way that I see fit depending on the circumstances. I always enjoy working with a coach as long as he is working with me. Yes I have used the words "Coach, We don't need a play by play of our officiating" in reponse to a coach and it has worked for some of these occasions.

Being cheeky
 

To which cheek do you refer? :D

Re: Fair is fair!
 

DJ,

You cannot say that. That is being confrontational. You know we cannot address coaches in any way that gives the impression it is about us. We have just tolerate their complaints, no matter how asinine they are. At least let the coach tell it, that is what we are suppose to do.

Peace

Woooooah.

Nobody called you a bad ref, I never even said you were wrong. Don't know why your feelings are so hurt. In fact, I stated that I believed you were a good referee with lots of experience.

You are right, you should do what works for you. I'll do what works best for me.

Peace (sincerely)

What post did you read?
 

Dude, did you read the post. Who said anything about what you called me or my feelings being hurt? I just do not agree with your assessment of the situation, regardless of how much you want me to consider you words. And you can say it 1000 times, it is not going to change my feelings on it. Just because you say it here, does not make it right or acceptable by everyone.

One of my first mentors used to say, "if they roll the dice, they just might crap out!" If they try to make that comment, they might get T'd, they might get ignored. But that is the chance THEY take. Just like JR said, they might run into guys like you and it will be ignored. Then they next night they might run into someone that will not warn but T them. Then they might run into a guy like me that will address this comment if and when I can and they will at least know where "I" stand and what is acceptable to me. [/B][/QUOTE]

Do not worry, was going to do that anyway. Despite how much you wanted me to consider your position. I considered it, I just do not agree with it. ;)

Peace

Re: What post did you read?
 

Now this I agree. Anytime a coach or player says or does something to the officials about the way the game is being called, then THEY are opening themselves for consequences. And right or wrong I will back my partner.

I do understand the pecking order, and have no qualms with it.

Quote:

But to say that my commenting to a coach who is talking to me, as being confrontational, not sure what world that is from.

Never said that you commenting to a coach is contfrontational. I said that inserting unstated accusations into a conversation changes the nature of that conversation.

Quote:

Do not make it sound like a coach saying "the fouls are 7-2" are not directed at a specific official.

I will make it sound that way because I believe this to be the case. You are taking personal offense at something that I do not believe is personal. If you are primarily working three-man, you can't be the only official calling (or not calling) fouls. The comment is directed toward a game situation that makes the coach mad, he thinks your crew is doing a bad job, he lets you know it, and you are clearly personalizing it.

Would you take offense when he complains about your partner's charging call to you because you are closest? If your partner calls a travel and he complain to you, is he suggesting that you are cheating because you did nothing about that call? He's just complaining, that's it.

No - read my posts above and you will see I sugggest that you shut him up if his comments bother you.

Obviously you will do what you want, and you take these comments to be personal affronst to which you must respond. I don't hope to change your mind, but hopefully my responses allow others to consider how they deal with confrontation in their games and in their lives.

I learned as a Navy leader not to personalize anything in a confrontational situation - keep things professional. When an individual atttempts to personalize, you acknowledge their comments and you then steer the conversation back to a professional level. I have found this to serve me well in all walks of life. Keeps me happy and keeps me moving onward and upward.

Where is the going?
 

When I really start to think about the original post and think of a foul ratio of 7-2 and a coach complains about it I guess I don't think of that as being an outrageous number. He/she might get me thinking about the calls but equally might get me thinking about his motives. It is early in the game and I want to stay on top of any conflict for a later stage of the game so if there are many more comments of this or of another nature I may have to address it as I see fit. Again a single comment is nothing to get too excited and could be ignored but......

Personal?
 

What does any of this have to do with taking it personal? Really, the comments that are made have nothing to do with who takes is personal or not. The comments are inappropriate in my opinion. They are out of line. If a coach makes a comment about my partner, that is not acceptable. I am not going to let a coach "call out my partner" and just let that go. We are a team, I would want them to do the same for me, I know many officials that would do the same in return. It is no different when a player starts complaining. It will be addressed so I do not have to do it with the game on the line in the 4th quarter or late in the Second half. My efforts is to make the game go smoothly, not have any Ts or ejections because the coach started down a road I could have easily stopped.

Coach, you want to make this into a personal issue. This is within my professional bounds. I have ever right as an official to address issues that are deamed "unsportsmanlike." Now that is where judgment comes in, but it is my right to handle it. I just choose to address it by talking directly to the coach, instead of just pulling the trigger and ejecting the coach. Look at it how you choose to, but but they better know who they are dealing with. Because an ejection might just happen. ;)

Peace