Boys 4A Varsity tonight. Big local rivalry game. Visiting team player B1 shooting the first of two free throws midway through the first quarter. After the release, an air horn goes off in the crowd. I tell partner I'm going to the table and I run over to get game management. They have the announcer request that no noisemakers be used and they inform me that they're going to watch the crowd for further problems. Good enough.

Midway through the second quarter, same thing happens (from the other side of the stands this time) only this time it sounds right as B2 is realeasing the free throw and it makes him "pull the string" (in my opinion of course) and he comes up short on the free throw. I go to the table again and this time they know who it is and toss the kid out. The visiting coach wants disconcertion. Well, I know that disconcertion is normally on a player, but I think he's got a good argument so I talk to my partner for a sec and he agrees. I get both coaches real quick and say "we're going to shoot two more." Home coach says, "how do you know it was one of our fans that did it?" I say, "I don't, but if one of your shooters gets disconcerted, I'll do the same for you." He wasn't thrilled but he bought off on it. No further problems. Routine game other than that.

Would you have handled it differently?

Thanks in advance!

Z

Heck yes he gets the shot over again.. Thats just my opinon... rules books are in the bag in the car so i cant quote it. but that would fall under 2.4 (referee has final authority) That REALLY puts the shooter at a dissadvantage.... no matter who was shooting or shot off the air horn.

JA

Handled beautifully. I would been the first person standing to applaud your handling the situation and to the heck with everyone else in the gym. For sure, I'd probably lose the shirt on my back if I tried that.

You have every right to award another throw. It's even allowed by the rules. Look up "artificial noisemaker" in the rulebook for a good explanation. Well done.

What rule allows you to call disconcertion on the fans?

This is NOT disconcerting action. But NFHS Casebook Play 1.18 SITUATION (c): Fans from the visiting are using artificial noisemakers during an opponent's attempted free throw. RULING: This is prohibited by rule. The officials shall notify game management to have a public address announcement made stating that the use of artificial noisemakers are prohibited at all times. If the problem continues it may result in a technical foul being assessed to the team supporter(s).

A subsitute free throw is not allowed in this situation, but a technical foul should have been assessed to the Team A supporter.

I'd much rather screw things up by giving another shot instead of exacerbating the circumstances with a T on the crowd. You may have not been technically correct, but you done good!

I'm giving him the shot over. That was a good move to let both coaches know. I doubt that the other coach complained that much as the game went on. It is their gym to manage. Plus you told them that it would go both ways. Good call.

sometimes what seems to be the fair thing to do is in conflict with the rules this seems to be one of those situations.

Many states only recognize protests for a misapplication of the rules and in a situation like this it may arise.

It is clear what the rule/case wants you to do but it also gives you the leeway to make a judgement here. If you beleive the T would do more harm than good you don't have to do it.By removing the fan you have sent a clear message that this will not be tolerated.

While it may not be the fair thing to do the right thing is to follow the rule/case. If this were not covered by the rules you could make such a determination but since it is
you should rule accordingly.

[Edited by PAULK1 on Jan 18th, 2004 at 05:11 PM]

Reluctantly, I agree. The case play is clear. If it didn't exist, you could conceivably invoke 2-3. But the case play prevents that.

Its a T or nothing.

Umm...the rule that says the referee has final say on all decisions not covered in the rules... ;)

I stand corrected!

Thanks for the input guys. The case that was cited by Mark D (1.18 C) assumes that you know which supporters blew the air horn. While one might assume that it was by the opponent of the thrower (you know what happens when you assume), we had no definite knowledge of that and I would never make that assumption. If you read my initial post, you'll see that each horn came from opposite sides of the bleachers.

I remember reading somewhere (rules book or case book, can't remember which) something to the effect that a technical foul on the crowd usually just makes things worse and that the NFHS doesn't recommend it. I cannot imagine a time when I would ever call a "T" on the crowd.

I was just wondering what others on this board would have done in this situation. I am very aware that we used the "elastic powers" of the ref on this one. I was just interested in hearing what others might have done.... not what the case and rulebook say because this exact one is not covered.

Thx,

Z

I would have followed the interpretation that is directly on point for this play. How can you ask people what they would do and not expect them to refer to the rule book and case book? That doesn't make any sense. The case book says "visiting team" but in real situations, you'll never know for sure where the supporter is from. But that doesn't mean we ignore the case play. Using your interp. the case play shouldn't even eixst.

No, I wouldn't call technical foul either for one occurrence. But if it happened again and again, game management didn't take care of it, and I'm sure it's the same person sounding the horn every time a team shoots, I would be forced to issue the T.

What you did was fine for your game and you got away with it. But make no mistake, it was wrong by rule.

I'd clear the section or the entire gym before I t'd the crowd!

Thats funny. :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef


I would have followed the interpretation that is directly on point for this play. How can you ask people what they would do and not expect them to refer to the rule book and case book? That doesn't make any sense. The case book says "visiting team" but in real situations, you'll never know for sure where the supporter is from. But that doesn't mean we ignore the case play. Using your interp. the case play shouldn't even eixst.

If you read case 2.8.1, you'll realize that it's not as cut and dried as you're making it sound.
Here's a quote: <i>"While officials do have the authority to penalize a team whose spectators interfere with the proper conduct of the game, this authority must be used with extreme caution and discretion. While the authority is there, the official must rarely use it, because experience has demonstrated thta calling hasty technical fouls on the crowd rarely solves the problem and may, in fact, result in penalizing the wrong team because the official may not have proper knowledge as to which team's supporters were responsible for the unsporting act."</i> Yep, that pretty much describes the situation.


<b>No, I wouldn't call technical foul either for one occurrence. But if it happened again and again, game management didn't take care of it, and I'm sure it's the same person sounding the horn every time a team shoots, I would be forced to issue the T.</b>

It happened twice. That isn't "again and again." I respect your opinion and judgment based on many of your posts here. What would you have done?

What you did was fine for your game and you got away with it. But make no mistake, it was wrong by rule.

Exactly. And it was the best I could think of at that time and I was hoping someone else could think of a better way to handle it. It isn't as black and white as you make it sound and I think you know that.

Z

[Edited by zebraman on Jan 19th, 2004 at 11:11 AM]

Why punish the mass for the actions of one? Give the "redo" on the free throw,UNLESS you know exact person making the noise and what team they are rooting for.

Lets seeee, A1 shooting FT, noise makers going off. HHHmmmmm, yep, I can't be sure what team they would be rooting for. :)

Dido, sooo lets shoot again ....right!

I referenced a Casebook Play that can be applied to the play in the original post. The Casebook Play allows for a technical foul to be assesed. I agree 110% with all those have taken the position that a technical foul should be a very very rarely invoked penalty. And even in the play of the original post I would be very hesitant to assess a technical foul. I would have game management deal with the problem fan. BUT, while the word opponent was used in the Casebook Play RULING, I cannot support awarding a substitute free throw for disconcerting action. And, this is not a case where NFHS R2-S3 can or should be applied.

Had this happen several years ago. Kept having someone in the crowd blow an air horn during play. Had the section located but not the person. After a couple of times, we had the administration request over the P.A. that further use would not be tolerated. Also informed the crowd that the entire section would be cleared from the gym if the culprit could not be located. The people in the section quickly gave the culprit up and he was quickly removed from the gym. Guess the other people wanted to continue watching the game.

I don't think anyone here is beating you up for how you handled it. And I haven't read a post where anyone has advocated calling a technical foul based on what happened.

What we're saying is that by rule, you cannot give the shooter another FT. If the case book play didn't exist, you could could invoke 2-3. But that's only used when the rules do not cover a situation. This case play is clearly meant to cover situations where a supporter uses an artificial noisemaker to disrupt the FT shooter. That's clearly what the case play addressees and that's clearly what happened in this play.

What would I have done? I would have asked game management to address the situation, just as you did. But I would not have given the player a replacement FT. You set a precedent. For example:

Let's say later in the game the score is tied at 65 with 2 seconds left. A1 is at the FT line. A team A fan sounds an air horn just as the FT is released. He knows that if the shot is missed, you're going to give him another FT. If he makes it, no harm, because you aren't going to wave it off.

Point is that if you do this once, you now have to do it every time this happens. Then you're also faced with how much noise is too much noise? What if it's rocks in a coffee can? That's just as illegal as the air horn. Are you going to give another FT if someone violately shakes a coffe can of rocks? I realize this is all hypothetical but not following the rule will get you in trouble eventually. The case play does not allow you to give a replacement FT.

I agree with Tony. It can be dangerous as he stated to award a substitute throw. As then both coaches could have fuel for wanting a new throw when a critical one was missed later in the game because someone yelled "airball". I'm not saying what you did in your sitch was wrong but it is my suspision that the rules do not warrent a replacement throw for exactly this reason. Find the culprit and get them removed.

I appreciate those responses guys. I might not give the "do-over" free throw if this was to happen again. That's gone to one pissed-off visiting coach, but I'll deal with that one. :-)

Z