During the post game last night, my partner asked me if I felt he had jumped any of my calls. I told him the only ones I noticed were a couple of travel calls. But, I told him, I didn't mind because there was a lot of hand motion at the time and I was watching for fouls. I felt that the traveling calls were something he could better see because of his distance. (Keep in mind that I was at the wideout and there was no room in this gym to move back from the play.) I was probably less than 10 ft from the play.

He said I should probably also be able to get the travel calls by focusing at the waist rather than at the shoulders.

What is the general thought of those of you here?

I don't think we should call traveling in our partner's area. Every time I have had a partner call a traveling in my area, it was a bad call. If you are watching the same players in my area, then who is watching your area?

I personally cannot call a travel just by the movements of the waist. I need to see the feet. I try to give some room between me and the ball carrier when he's in my primary so i can see his whole body.

As for calling in my partner's primary, if there's something obvious, or off-ball that he/she missed, then its got to be called. This is what my interpreter told us to do. The only exception to this would be the out of bounds call. I can't stand it when my partner calls the ball out on my line.

I was told if your looking out of your area, you will find something to call. Then who will call the action in your area?

At our last general meeting this quote was given on this topic:

"Tell me when you are going to ballwatch, then I will know when to watch off-ball".

In 3 Person.
 

It depends on what position you were and what mechanics you were using. Travels are good calls coming from the Center and Trail (in the Lead's area). Many time the lead has bodies in front of them and they do not see the entire play and catch the end of the action. Travels are usually the most common violation in another partner's area. At least the ones I see.

Peace

Re: In 3 Person.
 

On rebounds and put backs, I can see T making a travel call by the basket, on the L side of the basket. But, not the C. I don't believe a Travel is a "got to get" call in your partner's area.

Re: Re: In 3 Person.
 

What do you think the C does? That is the whole purpose of the C official. Not saying you call on the T and L's side of the 3 point line in the corner, but if it is near the paint and the C has no competitive matchup in their area, that is who is going to make that call. Most of the C's calls are going to be off ball many are going to be out of their area. Because if the ball is moved to the C's side, the L often is going to rotate.

Peace

On certain type plays the C should watch, such as when the post player turns away from the L, toward the center of the paint,. Both the L and T maybe screened out and the C is the only one who can see the Def. hack accross the arm. Let me ask you Rut, when is the last time you called a travel, from the C, in the L's primary?

My last game which was on Tuesday night. Because the L's side of the lane (in the paint) is the L's primary.

Peace

HHmmmm, Not me.

I had one yesterday. Lower level varsity game, I had never met my partner. About two minutes into the game partner gets down to endline area on a fast break, stampede style, cluster of players. As Trail I was approaching the division line and I see big center do the Flintstone Run (3-4 steps) before going in for (made) lay-up. Tweet! (me).I wipe out basket, give travel call (see look of anger/horror/insult? on partner's face). Next dead ball, partner was in my face stating, "Most partners would eat you alive for making that call in their area." I said, "I saw the travel and thought you were screened out." Reply was, "No, she didn't travel and don't EVER call in my area again." She DID travel, No, she DIDN'T, so I dropped the subject. (Oh my God, this is going to be a long game)

To be honest, I rarely call my partner's area as I have learned to watch my OWN area and not be a ball follower.However, contrary to my lecture, about 99% of refs I work with will pre-game to "Call anything obvious they may miss in their area if I see it, this is NOT an ego contest." Anyway, this average ref who has the illusion of being superb made several mechanics mistakes (confused on switching) and tried to boss me around, directing me to have "good time management" (hurry up is more like it) probably because the whole thing had become an embarassment (mostly caused by these militant actions). I remained calm and was not intimidated (but was glad when it was over).

By the way, when I work with another ref who does something to frustrate/anger me, my reaction is never harsh and belittling like that. I can get my point across (if necessary) without being rude and overbearing.

You might want to evaluate making AT&T calls. While I disagree with the method she took to communicate her dissatisfaction with you, I do think there is something to learn, that is IF you really want to better your game.

Wait just a second....this could be alright, depending on where you were when you made the call.

Was this a half-shuffle, or an obvious, multi-step, pack your bags, travel?

Did you run in, get good and close, and give a good, strong signal?

These are things to consider.

Last year, NCAA tournament, Elite Eight, I saw a similar play, and no cluster of bodies - train wreck on a transition layup - Lead has block - Ed Hightower comes sprinting in from beyond the arc, steps right into the middle of the paint, six feet from partner, and calls travel. Replay showed he was right. Gutsy call.

If a cluster of bodies means I miss an obvious travel, I WANT my partner to help on that one. The key is not to make the call from 60 feet away. But call it!

This "partner woulda eaten you alive" stuff is b.s. Do the right thing. Period.

But in this case, only if it was an OBVIOUS, blatant, bad travel.

Every time? C'mon Bart, who are you kiddin'? :p

I don't buy the "If you're watching his area, who's watching yours?" argument. Officiating basketball does not mean you have to stare only at your area. My field of vision does not automatically end where my area ends. It's impossible to do.

In three man, there's not always somebody in my area, when I'm at T. With the changed coverage and the elimination of the dual area, there's NO WAY the L can always focus on the upper body contact and watch the dribbler or post player for traveling. In these situations, the T has to help.

Now, I will say that if you go into someone's else primary and make a call, you'd better be 110% sure of the call. But when an obvious violation or foul occurs, we have a job to do. If it's in your primary and my secondary, I'll give you first shot. But I'm not going to let you make the crew look bad by passing on a call that I'm 110% sure is a foul or violation.

I think you've got a good point
 

I agree that we need to watch our areas, but I also agree that if its an obvious call then it needs to be made.

Game Tuesday night and I'm trailing in a press situation. I'm blocked suddenly by two players and miss a double dribble at midcourt.

C makes the call, good call and we play on.

There was no way I could see the play even though I was 15-20 feet from the play.

So, I agree if its obvious it needs to be called.

I think many times this causes problems especially in the higher ranks because so many of the officials are worried about what it looks like to the coaches/fans etc,

Sure we have responsibilities, but we also have to call the game.

I notice more and more from our college officials that they tend to let things go rather than call out of their primary.

Sometimes that is good, but sometimes it results in a missed call. As a former coach, I want the right call made, and I don't care about who makes it.

Thanks
David

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/rant.gif

Here's your reply:

"Most partners that I've worked with would have made the call so I wouldn't have to."

You can be damn sure that this is exactly what I would have said to her. It pisses me off to hear about officials with egos this big. What the hell happened to getting it right? What the hell happened to working as a team? :mad:

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/soapbox.gif

uh guys?
 

The sex of the partner was never mentioned. It was the player that was the she.

Rita

Re: uh guys?
 

Rita,

I was referring to the female partner in nine01c's game that lamblasted him for calling traveling in her area.

Stay with us dear. ;)

TH

When you make a call out of your primary and the coach says:
"That wasn't your call." or "You gotta let him make that call." you know you made a good call and he almost got away with something.

Re: Re: uh guys?
 

Rita -- don't mind Tony too much. He seems to be a little testy tonight. Also, I hope you'll stay around and keep posting. You could be the 4th (!) woman who is posting regularly on this board, and that's definitely a big improvement in the general atmosphere. nine01c, and oatmealqueen, don't you agree?

Oh, I'm not testy with Rita. I think she asks good questions. She just lost track of us for a post or two. In football, we have to tell our umpire the same thing sometimes, especially during a blowout. "Stay with us, Mac." :D

Is this the post in question? How do you tell the sex of the partner? (Please don't say look under their arm)

Ooops!
 

Actually, Bart referred the nine01c's partner as "she" in his reply. That's where I got it from. But you right, it doesn't say it in the post.

So, Rita, forgive me please, before Juulie chastises me again. It was an honest mistake, on my part at least. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk.../notworthy.gif

I'm not sure about Bart. :)

Re: Ooops!
 

Isn't nine01c a she? I could be wrong.

Re: oops!
 

You are forgiven (even for the "dear"). LOL

I ref girls basketball so I picked up on the "she" referring to the player.

Rita

My fault about the sex of the partner, sorry. Most of my partners will get the obvious. So, here is my point; 1) this travel call was obvious to an official at half court, when the official on top of the play says it was obvious it was not travel. HHHmmmm who do you think got it right? 2) Far more bad calls are made from officials who call out of their area. HHmmm I wonder why we go to camps and are told to first find the competitive matchup in your area. Yes I know you can reach out if you don't have a matchup in your area, but I will add, many of the bad calls out of primary are not the result of no matchups in their area. Sooo the "get it right" concept, when it comes to calling out of your area is NOT my first choice. I will trust my partner that they "GOT IT RIGHT". Most coaches and supervisors can live with a missed call, but have a hard time with the phantom call.

Just for clarification:

I, Nine01c, AM a female (but I can change...if I have to)
just kidding. I have officiated basketball for seven years and baseball for nine. I purposely did not disclose the gender of my partner in that game. It was a female. I have reffed 53 games this season, and 2 have been with a female partner. I have NEVER had a partner, male or female, be on such an ego-power trip as that lady was.

I should have been forewarned. Before the game I mentioned that I had worked only one game with another female this year. I said who she was and that she did a great job for a three year ref (I thought she was excellent). Then she put in her two cents about how she had to "explain a few things to her" and that her mechanics were weak and she was too timid, etc. I thought none of that stuff was true, but she probably scared the poor kid to death.

My original point was concern about this partner's "communication skills" and HOW she deals with people (like me). If I screwed up and should NOT have made the travel call, I can admit it and live with it, and learn from it. Hey, maybe I messed up, but it's NOT the end of the world (or HER career). Regarding gender, I think of us ALL as officials, not "male" officials and "female" officials.

My guess is tht the official who made the call got it right.

As nine01c stated, the L was probably blocked out, and the T has a wider view of the play. Most coaches I know hate it when a call isn't made because the official says, "It's not in my area," just as much or more than they hate a missed call.

Regarding calling out of your area...

I know a certain Veteran Official that was at the WA state B tournament in Spokane last year that got "marked down" for making a call out of his area. (2 person crew)

The observer said it was probably the right call but it didn't look good. Remember, these observers are usually Veteran Officials and Coaches...so they are human, they really can have varying degrees of opinions.

BTW, this Veteran Official, that was marked down, ended up being ranked 3rd... (Alternate for the Championship Game)..and the partner whom he called in his area ended up being ranked last, 16th.
My point is, it might have been the right call...but somebody didn't like the call, and that somebody had a position of power.

RD

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

[i] My guess is tht the official who made the call got it right. As nine01c stated, the L was probably blocked out, and the T has a wider view of the play. Most coaches I know hate it when a call isn't made because the official says, "It's not in my area," just as much or more than they hate a missed call.

I don't recall ever saying to tell the coach "It's not in my area". How many times have you had a partner make a bad call in your area and their reason was I thought you were blocked out and couldn't see what happened?

Re: Re: Re: uh guys?
 

Rita -- don't mind Tony too much. He seems to be a little testy tonight. Also, I hope you'll stay around and keep posting. You could be the 4th (!) woman who is posting regularly on this board, and that's definitely a big improvement in the general atmosphere. nine01c, and oatmealqueen, don't you agree? [/B][/QUOTE]


Of course I agree. The boys have cooties ;)

But ...
 

But the veteran who was ranked 3rd still had the peace of knowing that he made a good call.

So what with rankings... if your goal is to call a championship game go for it, (as was noted the guy who was calling in his area was ranked way down the list)

but if just have the desire to be a very very good official then it really isn't that important.

My philosophy has been that if I do a good job then I will get to move up the ladder, and its served me well for 24 years.

Thanks
David

I'll call out of my area, but before I do, I consider a few points...

1) Where is my partner?
2? Does my partner have a view of the play or where they screened?
3) What is the potential call?

I'll never call a foul or traveling on a 1 on 1 matchup that is right in front of them with clear line of sight.

As lead, in a half court situation, I don't think there are many situations that warrant calling in the trail's primary....unless they are simply asleep at the wheel. One exception is when A1 is toeing the sideline on the lead's side and above the FT line extended. B1 comes up behind and gives A1 a little bump, knocking them OOB. Trail is going to be in the middle of the floor but still doesn't have a great view. Lead is covering lead's sideline and has a perfect view between the bodies. Trail's primary but lead can make the call.

As trail, in a half court situation, I think there are a lot of opportunities for the trail to help out.

For example, ball in the paint with lot of players. A1 on lead's side spins across the key and is fouled by a secondary defender from the top side during the spin. It's a common situation but it is often that the lead can not see this.

Another example, lead covering ball deep in the corner with A1 being guarded by B1. A2 is setting a screen nearby with B2 also nearby. (Lead is well occupied) Trail, who has shifted positions to be well into the floor looking down the lane, is covering off ball has post action...even on lead's side. Quick drop pass to A4 on the stongside block with B4 covering. B4 shoves A4 in the back. The lead, if in the right position to cover the corner will likely not be able to see this or be able to get into a new position to see it in time. The moment the ball is there, this is technically the lead's primary. However, the trail has seen the whole play. Lead can call it but I'd expect the trail to take it.

Anytime the ball is in the paint (or any confined area) with 7+ bodies, off ball and on ball are nearly the same location. The trail should not be afraid to cover action on the closer part of the paint. Sure, it may be lead's "primary" but the lead may end up wiht 6 bodies between him and the action.

The book definitions of primary and secondary are only guidelines. If the players are imbalanced or packed in tight, the areas should shift so that the play is well covered.

Great examples Camron...
In fact, the call in question was by the Lead in the Trail's primary. The ball was coming into the frontcourt. A1 had just crossed the division line near Lead's sideline.
There was a bump by B1, but the bump didn't cause A1 to go OOB. The official thought it was enough of a bump to call a foul, and since the Trail was still moving up the court (and was still in the backcourt) the Lead thought he would get this foul.
It was a stretch, and I think the official realized this after he called it.