Substitution Question

[Dubby]

Player A1 reports to come into the game. Waits at the scorers table. Then enters the game without being beckoned while play is going on. A technical foul is called.

Is the technical foul charged to the player or is it a bench technical which is also an indirect technical on the head coach which also means that the coach loses the coaching box????

[BktBallRef]

The foul is only charged to the player, not to the coach.

[Dubby]

But aren't they considered bench personnel until beckoned onto the court? Therefore wouldn't the coach get an indirect?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dubby
But aren't they considered bench personnel until beckoned onto the court? Therefore wouldn't the coach get an indirect?

No indirect T for the coach. Rule 10-2(2) plus Penalty.

[BktBallRef]

I would assume that the philosophy is that the coach would have difficulty preventing the sub from entering when he's at the table and the coach is at the bench. For that reason, the coach shouldbn't be held responsibile for the actions of a sub who illegally enters the court.

[RookieDude]

...and if you can't really come to grips with 10-2 Penalty section...
Check out Page 76 in the back of this year's NFHS Rule book:
TECHNICAL-FOUL PENALTY SUMMARY

It shows no penalty to the Head Coach for your exact situation. Substitutes

RD

[Dubby]

After looking at this a little closer, especially page 76, here is what I came up with:

Rule 4-34-3
"A sub becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court."

In this situation the player entered the game while the ball was alive and was not beckoned, therefore is still considered bench personnel under control of the head coach.

Page 76
Under 'Bench Personnel':
"enter court without permission"
Penalty Charged to:
Sub/Bench personnel, counts towards disqualification and team-foul count AND is charged as an INDIRECT to the head coach.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by Dubby
After looking at this a little closer, especially page 76, here is what I came up with:

Rule 4-34-3
"A sub becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court."

In this situation the player entered the game while the ball was alive and was not beckoned, therefore is still considered bench personnel under control of the head coach.

Page 76
Under 'Bench Personnel':
"enter court without permission"
Penalty Charged to:
Sub/Bench personnel, counts towards disqualification and team-foul count AND is charged as an INDIRECT to the head coach.

Dubby read just a little further there.... "if entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live." since the sub entered during a live ball they became a player immediately. If they weren't a player there couldn't be a T for either illegal substitution or for the 6th player. Since A6 is a player, the T is not charged indirectly to the Coach.

[Dubby]

First off it says 'when the ball becomes alive'. To me, that assumes that ball had to be dead at the time the player entered the court.

Secondly, it still doesn't address the situation of the sub not being beckoned onto the court.

The T would be for the illegal substitution, not having 6 on the court. If you were to keep reading 4-34-4 it also says "A player becomes bench personnel after his/her sub becomes a player". If that sub is now legal then whoever he's replacing would now be considered bench personnel. Either way, you can only have 5 legal players on the court. After that, whoever is left is considered bench personnel.

On page 76 under bench personnel it clearly says "entering without permission"....charged indirectly to the HC.

[Dubby]

For some reason I can't edit my response.

The last post should have referenced 4-34-3.

[Jurassic Referee]

Dubby, you're really reaching. There's an explicit rule to cover this play- R10-2-2&Penalty. No need to try and justify anything else by stringing together other rules that don't relate to this situation at all.

[cmathews]

Dubby,
Don't make a habit of looking for a reason to give a T either indirectly or otherwise. The technical foul penalty summary clearly states Substitutes: entering court; no report; not beckoned. That covers the situation exactly. I think the bench personel they are referring to in entering the court are asst coaches trainers, or other subs that enter during a fight. The reason being the coach is in charge of his bench. When the kid goes to the table the coach is no longer in control of him so to speak. Since the coach isn't in control of him, you don't penalize the coach for his actions. This is one problem I see about telling the coach first about a DQ for a players 5th foul. Now the kid is bench personel and when you tell him if he pops off and gets whacked the HC also gets one even though he doesn't have the opportunity to cool the kid down first..IMHO... I do realize there are deeper issues if the kid pops off such as coaching in practice...

[BktBallRef]

Sorry partner but you're wrong.

In your play, the substitute is at the scorer's table waiting to come into the game and enters unbeckoned. This is a direct technical foul on the player under 10-2-2. It is also found in the Technical Foul Summary table under Substitute. It is not an indirect on the coach. The table and rule are clear on that.

Also, 10.2.2 is your exact play.

10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court.
RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

Your reply is referring to any bench personnel who leave the bench and enters the floor. This is a direct technical foul on the player under 10-4-2. It is also found in the Technical Foul Summary table under Bench Personnel. It is an indirect on the coach, unless of course, the coach is the one entering the floor unbeckoned. Then it would be a direct T. This rule addresses ALL bench personnel, not just substitutes. 10-2-2 specifically addresses substitutes.

If I'm incorrect, please tell me in what situation you would use 10-2-2 and the ruling under Substitute in the table. If you're correct, why would even 10-2-2 exist?

[Dubby]

I'm not 'looking' to give anyone a T. It's simply applying the rules. It's not as if the Coach gets a T and the player gets one. It's simply who gets credited with the penalty. We're not shooting four free throws.

If the bench has 3 assistants and then 10 kids, it doesn't mean the coach isn't repsonsible for the kid at the end of the bench because he is 'to far away'.

If they are not bench personnel, and they are not players, what are they?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dubby
I'm not 'looking' to give anyone a T. It's simply applying the rules.

Then please tell us why you refuse to apply rule 10-2-2?