In our girls varsity (small school) game last evening time was winding down with black up by about 15. White loses the ball out of bounds on their end line with about four seconds left. Black lines up a stack inbound play and white (inexplicably) lines up next to them. One black player makes a break for their basket at the other end of the floor with white several steps behind.

The inbounder lets the ball fly and black catches it just beyond half-court while their coach is screaming "Touchdown" (again, up 15). White catches up to black just as black is letting go of the layup and as the horn is sounding. I'm trail administering the throw in so I'm far away and haven't moved much as I'm still watching 8 players watch the play. Black ends up on the floor and the fans go crazy and it becomes obvious that white fouled her pretty hard, just based on the reaction of the bench and the fans.

Partner is right on the play with a strong whistle and an intentional foul signal. Time has expired and white goes to their bench while most of black goes to their injured player. Partner reports the foul and calls the game over.

I motion to black captain that I'd like a word and exhort her to speak to her teammates and encourage good sportsmanship in the post-game handshake, notwithstanding what just happened. (I'm getting to my point).

I've got no opinion because I truly did not see the foul, but in this situation, had you been the calling official and had the player fouled the other hard, knocking her to the floor, would you call a flagrant foul which dictates in our area that she miss the following game?

Post-game I told my partner that I didn't see the play at all but that I would have leaned toward calling a flagrant foul with the appropriate punishment. He said that he came up strong with the intentional signal but that he felt the game was over and that "it didn't really matter".

Then why did he report the foul? :)

I have no problem ruling a foul as flagrant any time during the game, if I judge it to be.

when white injures black with this hard foul and black misses the next two months with a separated shoulder, do you think black cares that the game was over, or that black thinks it doesn't matter. Clearly white thought that it wouldn't matter and went with the hard foul. If it was flagrant, it needs to be called here more than any other situation, just to show that you can't pull this when you are mad about losing. If it was a flagrant foul in a blowout, it should be called and she should sit.

I agree. It does matter. If it's flagrant, call it; especially at the end like this when the player thinks she can get away with it. It's a frustration foul, and it's violent. Sitting out the next game will teach her, calling an intentional won't teach her a thing because it didn't cost her anything.

[Quote]Originally posted by BktBallRef
I have no problem ruling a foul as flagrant any time during the game

Just for kicks and giggles BBR (Or anyone else that wants to take part in this survey)...how many flagrant fouls have you called in your entire career?

A Veteran buddy of mine has called a grand total of two...and that was in his first Varsity game 10 years ago...two guys swung at each other.

RD

P.S. Let me edit this...H.S./College games only...drunken' mens Rec leagues don't count.


[Edited by RookieDude on Jan 14th, 2004 at 05:18 PM]

Called=0, same count as my common fouls, travelings, etc.

Seen many, but they weren't all called :)

...OK, to you Hawks Coach...how many have you called for? ;)

RD

None against any of my players, ever, and that better remain that way. They will have a lot more to worry about than the one game suspension - I won't have it on my team, period. Note the lack of smiley!

I will confine my games to jr. H.S., H.S., college, AAU and YBOA Nationals.

The latest flagrant foul that I called was just last Wednesday night with 2:10 left in the second half of a men's coll. jr. varsity game. It was a flagrant foul personal foul and the first contact or attempted contact flagrant foul on a player that I had called in 29 years of officiating women's or men's college basketball.

In 1998 I had a flagrant technical foul in a girls' H.S. varsity game when a A1 tried to punch B1 after I had called a common foul on B1.

I had one in the 1993 AAU Girls' 18U Nationals when a post player tried to use her elbow to knock her opponent's head off during the game. Since there was no contact it was a flagrant technical foul.

I had a flagrant technical foul in a boys' H.S. varsity game in 1986 when A1 tried to punch B1 after I had called a common foul on B1. In the H.S. varsity games of 1998 and 1986, A1's team was losing badly and was getting real frustrated.

In 1984 I had a flagrant technical foul in a boys' H.S. varsity game when A1 did punch B1 after B1 had fouled A1 in the act of shooting. To show you how things have changed in 20 years. In this game, tossed Team A's Head Coach for charging onto the court after me because I had tossed A1. While Team B was shooting its technical free throws, A1 hurled a basketball at me. I did not see it coming until the last minute and ducked just in time. I am only 5'-09" and A1 was 6'-05", 250 lbm, and was headed to the Univ. of Nebraska on a football scholarship and if that ball had hit me in the head I am sure that I would have been knocked out at the very least if not worse. The next day I went to the appropriate police jurisdiction to file a criminal complaint against A1. The police laughed in my face. Today, A1 would have left the gym in handcuffs.

Anything before 1984 is a foggy haze, come to think of it every thing is a foggy haze right now.

MTD, Sr.

Rec basketball, several, too numerous to recall.

In HS basketball, 1.

B1 shoves A1 into the bleachers and starts after him. Then, he realizes what an idiot he is, since his opponent. is a star fullback. A1 went on to play college football at East Carolina and was the Offensive MVP of the annual Blue-Gray All-Star game this past Christmas Day.

Just a bit of nostalgia.

But I truly see very little of this style of play. So I'm fortunate that I don't have to deal with it.

Intentional is not the same as flagrant. I see the severity of the foul as being on the flagrant/non-flagrant continuum. Intentional is fouling and not going for the ball, which can be light or severe.

I called intentional the other night on a girl who reached with both hands and pushed her opponent in the hip, no where near the ball. The coach yelled tht it was a bad call, that she was going for the ball. Laugh! After the game he wanted to talk and he said that he was more upset that we didn't call the 'ticky tack' fouls on his team as they were trying to stop the clock. I said, we didn't call ticky tack fouls for 3 1/2 quarters so we weren't going to call them then. I believe that the time of the game doesn't dictate whether a foul is intentional, rather the 'intent' of the foul. I have called intentional fouls in the first half before.

I have to agree with the coach here. If they're obviously trying to foul, then I call the foul. Otherwise, you pass and play gets rough.

I understand what you're saying about calling it the same in the last four minutes as you did in the first 28. But consider this. Team B wasn't TRYING to foul in the first 28 minutes. They've changed tactics. We must to.

I don't let the time of the game tell me what to do. I don't 'change tactics.' Players can commit an intentional foul that is not ticky tacky and not severe. We've all seen it. I'll be the judge of whether contact needs to be called a foul or not. That's what I get paid to do, use my judgment.

Forksref, I gotta disagree. THE point of emphasis for the last few years has been rough play. One of the surest ways to get rough play at the end of the game is to give B4 the impression that he's gotta really foul a guy in order to get a call. I'll adjust a bit in those situations. We're not talking about shooting fouls here. I'll have a lower threshold for "advantage/disadvantage" at the end of a game where it's obvious the defense is trying to foul.

Wow! Did I strike a nerve? Step on some toes? No need to be defensive. Just offering a different view.

Yes, I've seen fouls that weren't ticky-tacky and weren't not severe.

I've also seen officials who use this philosphy and seen games get out of hand becuase the official ignore fouls with less contact. I've seen fights and I've seen players hurt because an official ignored the foul, hoping the clock would run out. I've seen a whole lot of $hit that could have been avoided if the official had used better judgment.

I hope that never happens to you.

I have to laugh!

In 30 years, I've never had a game get out of hand. Maybe hard to get control earlier in the game, but never out of hand at the end.

I don't let real fouls go and I've never seen teams TRYING to foul do it lightly. Going for the ball and going for the foul are not the same thing.

Me thinks thou hast ignored the term 'judgment' in my post.

I have given out more technicals than intentionals, it seems to get the coaches attenion alot quicker and it nips the problem in the bud before everything gets out of hand.

You give out Ts for fouls at (near) the end of the game? That doesn't seem correct.

As I posted on another forum, "Technical" and "Intentional" are not mutually exclusive. "Technical" and "Personal" are.

You can have an IT or an IP. You can have an FT or an FP. You can have a T or a P. You can't have a PT or a TP.

Didnt say "near" or at the end of a game. If I feel that what is happening could cause the game to get out of control and that a players intention can be construde of those actions, then BANG, they bought a "T" for unsportsmanlike. Does it work? Never had a game get out of control! Is it right? Everyone seems to have there own style. Just giving my 2 cents.

It is about GAME MANAGEMENT not judgement.Your philosophy is fine when it comes to swallowing your whistle because,"We don't want to decide the game," but this is different.

The game situation dictates that we need to call the foul.
In fact with younger kids I have even remined the players,
while we were lining up to shoot free throws,that we are aware of the situation and they don't NEED to be overly aggressive with the contact to get the foul called.

[Edited by blindzebra on Jan 15th, 2004 at 09:30 AM]

This is an exaggeration for emphasis, right? In 30 years (of officiating?), you've never seen a defensive player "pitty-pat" the kid with the ball just to get you to blow the whistle?

I won't say that I see this all the time, but some smart players (and there are some) know that the official is going to call the foul and just do enough to get the whistle.

If you weren't exaggerating, then it's my turn to laugh! ;)

Are you saying that you give out technical fouls for hard contact fouls committed during a live ball, in lieu of intentional fouls?

I've coached in 345 V or JV games now in 8 seasons. I've seen two.

1) About five or six years ago in a JV game, an opposing player got tossed for an elbow that didn't connect.

2) Three seasons ago in the most physical girls' varsity game I've coached in, a game screaming for something to clean it up, a flagrant was called on one of my JV players who got in with 45 seconds left, and got out with 43 seconds left.

I don't think so. You must have missed this statement.

"I've seen a whole lot of $hit that could have been avoided if the official had used better judgment."

If a player is obviously trying to foul, it should be called. If it isn't, they'll just foul harder. That's when players get unnecessarily hurt.

Nice discussion on the type of foul. But why was the black team up by 15 with 4 seconds left running a touchdown play? Is this sportsmanship and did this influence the attitude of the white player who fouled??

If all the defense is in the backcourt, run for the TD. It's probably (normally) the safest play to run as the player running ahead of everyone else is less likely to get fouled.

It probably did but it doesn't justify his action, nor should it affect the call that's made.

Same reason the white team was pressing while down 15 with 4 seconds to go.

Thanks to those of you who responded to the question of Flagrant fouls. Interesting sitchs that happened to some of you.

How bout some others...Chuck? Bob? JR? JRut?...you guys ever call a Flagrant in a H.S. game?

RD

I have a question regarding some of the comments here and on other threads. On another thread it was mentioned that if a coach yells out,"Foul them", then a subsequent foul should be called intentional even if going after the ball. The reasoning being is you know the intent was to foul to stop the clock. Now in this thread the official is saying I am aware of the situation. I know you are going to try and foul to stop the clock so I am going to alter my way of calling fouls. If you know the intent is to foul why is this not an intentional foul? I have always assumed that when everybody in the building knows the defense is going to foul, the official cannot make that assumption. They can't read a players mind. But here you do make that assumption and alter the calls accordingly. It seems to me that penalizes the offense. If the offense is doing a great job of moving the ball to avoid a steal or foul and foul is called for slight contact that would not be called earlier. It penalizes good play. I am not advocating rough play. But I believe you can safely go after the ball and acutually foul without being too rough. It's just my opinion but I would like the game to be called the same from beginning to end.

Flagrant
 

I have called 2 flagrant fouls that have resulted in suspension for "hard" fouls. I called a flagrant foul two years ago for tripping when a player intentionally stuck our his leg and tripped an opponent. It was an ugly looking play and the kid was hurt but not seriously. In our state you are then required to report the incident to our State Activities office so that the appropriate measures are taken.

Called 1 in 10 years. Couple years ago A1 is fouled by B1. I call it and am about ready to head to the table when B1 goes up and shoves A1. Tweet Flagrant Technical.

Royals Coach
 

Coach, we're not changing the way we're calling the game. The calls are different because the tactics being used are different. The strategy of the game has changed. Don't confuse incidental contact, with a player who is trying to foul. A player who is trying to foul is not committing incidental contact. Am I suppose to say, "You're not hitting him hard enough so it's just incidental contact,"? I can't find the logic in that.

Just because we know that the foul is going to be committed does not mean that the foul is to be called an intentional foul. Fouling at the end of the game is a legal strategy. The NF has stated that "Coaches must instruct their players regarding the proper techniques involved in strategic fouling." They recognize that strategy.

When they strategy is being employed, we have to recognize it. We have to recognize what's a foul and what's an intentional foul. When a team that is obviously attempting to foul strategically, without committing the acts that require an intentional foul call, then we have an obligation to call that foul.

To address, "If the offense is doing a great job of moving the ball to avoid a steal or foul..."I'm not advocating calling a foul in that situation, IF a foul has not been committed. However, when the foul occurs, it's got to be called or a player is going to end up in the front row because the defender is chasing hard.

I'm more addressing the situtation. 85% FT shooter A1 knows a foul is coming and is holding or dribbling the ball. I've seen inexperienced officials who won't call the foul on first contact. They wait until A1 gets whacked several times. That's stupid. If a defender goes up to a player and hits him on the arm, that's not incidental contact, no matter how hard the contact is or isn't. A player who is trying to foul is not committing incidental contact.

It's basic preventative officiating to call that first foul.

So when we do that and your team avoids the slight foul a couple of times and then someone just clobbers the crap out of your star player and they are lost for the rest of the year will you be singing the same song? Don't think so. You will be over there yelling at us for not calling the slight contact. Seems like when a team is trying to foul every attempt is atleast twice as hard as the last. We are not trying to penalize you for good offense we are trying to keep someone from getting hurt.

[Edited by SteveF on Jan 15th, 2004 at 12:24 PM]

When not to foul
 

One other comment I would like to make is that too many times during my career I have seen where coaches do not tell their kids to stop fouling at the end of a game when there is no longer a legitimate chance to win so the fouls get to be "harder" fouls and before you know it someone is mad. I think that some coaches do not use common sense and "call the dogs off" and this is a major contributing factor for some pretty ugly situations that come at the end of a game and if we start to call intentional fouls they complain about that! It is not the best situation. I even saw a coach start to foul in the 2nd quarter of a district tournament because he got way behind early in the game and the officials had to call 70+ fouls before this nonsense ended. It made absolutely no sense. Thank heaven it was not my rotation to work and I only had to watch this travesty of the game. This kind of play can only lead to a bad situation for all that are involved.

I think that there needs to be a balance between the overly quick whistle at any suggestion of contact and the holding a whistle until somebody gets mugged. I don't like it if a ref calls a slight brush that fails to impact the play as a foul (unless we are trying to foul ;) ). I also don't like it if you make pretty serious contact but the offense manages to retain the ball so the ref passes on the foul call. It really does come down to experience and judgment.

On the defensive side, royalcoach, I always tell my players to be sure they have the ball when all is said and done. If my player has the ball, we either have a foul or a steal. And they are making a play for the ball, which usually avoids an intentional call, even if in getting the ball they clearly had to foul. On the other hand, if they fail to get the ball and fail to get the foul, we have a loss. So I coach to get the ball and the rest takes care of itself.

I think that there needs to be a balance between the overly quick whistle at any suggestion of contact and the holding a whistle until somebody gets mugged.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Hawks Coach, balance is everything. I agree 100%.

MY two cents

Call the flagrant, it makes it formal... Report it then to your state association. Where I am from if you call it flagrant and an ejection, they'll sit a week... sounds like exactly what they need.

In WA state a player ejected because of a flagrant foul sits out a "like" game before he/she is eligible to play again.
i.e. if a Junior Varsity player gets ejected in his game, he cannot go up and play in the Varsity game that same night. He must sit out a Junior Varsity game before he is eligible to play any game.

RD

Hawks Coach: Everytime I read one of your responses, I think you must be one heck of a good coach. I know we are in the same basic area, and as rainmaker said earlier, I hope I get to officiate one of your games -- perhaps we will meet in AAU season.

That is the rule in Iowa, as well.