A few days ago, I posted what I thought were interesting interps from NCAA-M.

Here's a similar list from the most recent NCAA-W interps:

1) Athletic training “pre-wrap.”
“Pre-wrap” may be worn as a head band as long as it is securely fastened or tied to
eliminate any slippage from the forehead and head.

2) WNBA/NBA logos.
These professional logos may not be worn on head bands or socks. This is against the
playing rules and is also an NCAA violation of endorsing a professional organization.

3) Disqualified player/free throw.
Play: Player B1 is disqualified for 5 fouls. Official A is getting the substitute.
Officials B and C do not realize that there is a DQ and that Official A is waiting for
the substitute (30 seconds is being timed). Officials B and C proceed to administer a
free throw while this is going on. B1 makes the free throw.
Ruling: This is a major error by the officials. The ball remains dead for the
substitution. The free throw will not count, get the substitution into the game and readminister
the free throw. This does not fall under correctable error, it is an error by
the officials and this is the only way to fix it.

Interesting. You can have the manufacturer's logo, but that's the only logo that's allowed. I see the NBA logo all the time and never thought twice about it, b/c the size was ok. Hmmmmm.

This happened in a HS game in my area recently (not my game, fortunately). The officials (one of whom is a D1 men's official) counted the FT, got the sub in and then shot the remaining FT.

Fed
 

Chuck,

how would you handle this in a high school game?

Mulk

Last year's NFHS Interps
 

Bob or Chuck,

Did the Fed not address this in last year's or previous year's interp? And, was not their ruling different? Somthing to the effect; even though one official was still trying to get a sub in, an official put the ball in play and no official killed the play. Therefore, shot is good if made and not a do over if missed?

We had a big dawg women's official that ruled just like this year's women's interp, but it was 2 years ago. Then, I saw the then NFHS interp. I remember he and I talking about it at the time and we concluded that it was done incorrectly based on that interp.

Mulk

Ronny, the FED rule (3-6) is also pretty specific that only a "manufacturer's logo/trademark" can be visible on the pants, compression shorts, headbands and/or sweatbands. There's no case play associated with the rule. But it sounds to me that you'd have to require the NBA logo not to be visible.

Anybody with other thoughts?

BTW, the NCAA rule is 3-6-1a.

Or did you mean the FT before the DQ'd player was replaced? Duh.

I don't know of any case play that deals directly with this situation. I can see the merit in both ways of handling it. The kid took a merited FT, so you could say that was his FT -- made or missed -- and move on.

But that gets tricky if it's only a one-shot penalty. It makes more sense to say that the ball never became live and the official screwed up by allowing the shooter to have the ball. Disallow the basket if it's good. Get the sub in and then shoot the proper sequence for the FT(s).

I guess I go with (man, I hate to say this) the NCAAW interp. :)

How about FED rule 2-10-1(c)- Correctible Error- <i>"Permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw"</i>?

It doesn't sound like the wrong player attempted the free throw. It was the right player only at the wrong time.

I must confess that this happened in not one, but two of my games earlier this year.

We counted the throw, got in the sub, shot the next one.

Apparently, we were wrong.

Bob,

We had a rash of this same play 2 years ago in our group - about 3 in a 2 weeks period of time. It may not be so apparent for high school games because I think that I saw an interp (Fed) that treated the situation just like you did. Of course, it was either last year or the year before. First of all, do you remember that interp? Is there a way to check and see if it WAS or STILL is a Fed interp?

Mulk

I'm confused....
 

If B1 committed his 5th foul, why was he shooting the free throw?

I am hoping that Bob meant A1 made the f. throw. Probably, the official administering the free throw did not know it was his 5th foul nor that his partner was trying to get a sub in.

When this play happens and you are lead, it may appear to you that the trail is only conversing with the coach. Or, maybe evrybody is lined up and you don't even glance at your partner. No reason to hold the game up, right? So you bounce the ball to the free thrower and the trail does not notice. As the ball is in flight everybody near the trail starts screaming "they are starting without you". Somebody has to tell the guy with the ball (administering official)that we have a DQ. Because of trouble we have had with this play in the past, we do this before we tell the coach that that is five on 24.

That is not good dead ball officiating.
 

If that happens, you really are not doing your job. You should make eye contact with your partner before doing anything. Or at least take enough time to realize that is not the situation. But at the very least you should always get some kind of acknowledgement from your partner before getting in that situation.

Peace

I think this happens in 3 person more than in 2 person. The guys in our group have decided that the person that can really hurt you in this situation (administering official) is the last to be aware that there is a DQ situation. The lead is down there lining people up and making sure you have the right shooter. The horn is not blowing, the table has only held up 5 fingers to indicate the DQ. The C comes over and indicates 2 shots but does not mention that is 5 on 24. The lead thinks the C is ready so he bounces the ball. The C thinks the sub has taken place on his trip over if the Lead has bounced the ball. The trail is focusing on getting the sub in.

So, we make sure that the lead is aware. "you tell the coach that's five and i'll tell our partner".

But, the question remains, how are you going to handle if this happens in a high school game?

Mulk, you are going to get upset.
 

I have never had that happen in a 3 person game. Not saying it cannot happen, but if you are not in a big hurry, you can avoid this very easily. Mainly because if you discuss "eye contact" in your games, if your partner is tending to the table, you do not give the ball to the shooter. Now, I have had this happen in a 2 person game. But I believe only once and it was my fault for not paying attention.


The same way I am going to handle it in a college game. If we have made eye contact and the table does not tell us at all, and they have a revelation when the shooter has the ball, let the shooter finish his shot (especially on 1 of 2 shots). If the table blows the horn, I might take the ball out of his/her hand if I think the horn disrupted their routine. In both cases I will remove the DQ'd player and go right back to what we were doing. If there was a shot missed and rebounds and other shots are made without being told, you just remove them when you are informed. But I also think that the officials should be somewhat aware when a player has had 5 fouls. Just take a couple of seconds and ask if need be. Especially before shots. And now with the fancy scoreboards, you can know when they have 4 fouls.

Peace

Jeffrey,

It is not about the table not informing you. It is about a free throw going on when it should not have. 2 officials have put the ball in play and the other is still trying to get the replacement in. Have you made the ball live because the lead began play or is the ball still dead because the trail was not ready.

You do NCAAW? Bob has listed the NCAAW interp. Is that what you are going to use in your High School game?

I know this is not going to happen in one of your games. So, pretend you are giving one of your clinics and this question comes up.

Mulk

Oh Ron, will you ever learn.
 

Yes I have done NCAAW for the past 3 years. And the rules to my knowledge is not any different between NCAAM and NCAAW on this specific issue. Unless you can give me a specific ruling, then we can work off of that.

Mulk, Mulk, Mulk, Mulk, Mulk. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk...pshakehead.gif

I am going to tell them the exact same thing I told you right now. I realize that is hard for you to understand, but this is preventable. And unless you are aware of some rule that I am not that suggests otherwise, that is what I am going to do. This is not a correctable error, this is mostly a table problem. We are not scorekeepers. We can only correct this situation if and when it happens. But to suggest that you cannot as the lead watch your partners and see that they are dealing with something, that is just irresponsible. If you look at the T in 3 person mechanics and his head is turned, you need to wait a second. No different if I am the new trail taking the ball out on the endline in the backcourt. Make eye contact and get some kind of confirmation that no subs are coming or there is nothing we need to wait on (injury, equiptment issues, fight in the stands). And in a throw in position you are much more spread out over the court. Why is that hard to do? Why does that have to be a problem? Dead ball officiating is one of the most important times in officiating. Not very hard to do as well. ;)

Peace

As much as we dislike each other and never get along ( ;) ) I must agree with Rut on this. 2 man or 3 man or even 4, 5 or 6 man games if your partner is not where he should be and paying attention to you it is damn near unforgivable to put the ball in play. Ever. As the memo says this is a MAJOR error by the officials and leads to an absolutely preventable problem. Whether the FT goes in or misses it *does not count* and you will have 1 very unhappy coach no matter what you decide.

It is a major error by the officials. I've had it happen in my game and it is embarrassing. I've seen it happen on the college level. We don't have a large group, 50 officials or so, but it has happened already this year. Last year, it happened more than 5 times that we know about. It must have had happened at the NCAAW enough for them to issue an interp on how to handle.

I do see the glass half empty a lot of times but even excellent refs are not bullet proof. An inexperienced partner can put a ball in play without your approval and there is not a thing you can do to prevent it. Or, it can just be miscommunication between 3 good partners. "I thought you were looking right at me". "I thought the sub was already in and you were just over there flirting with the coach or table". One day you are going to end up at trail trying to get a sub in for a DQ'd player i.e. facing the table or the coach and the partner that is supposed to make "eye contact" before bouncing the ball to the shooter has only looked at your brown eye.

At least, if it does happen, you'll know what to do.

SSooo, does this mean, whenever there is a "Major error" by the officials, we do a do-over. Hmmm, six players on the court for a coulpe trips, MY fault, DO-OVER. Oops, That would be a Major error on my part. :)

that is the real question
 

Bart,

Finally, someone has hit the nail on the head. You do NCAAW don't you? They have given their interp. It sounds like a do over to me in their games. Does that apply to NFHS?

Mulk

As far as I'm concerned, in HS games, its not correctable. The basket counts, the rebound counts and anything else counts unless its correctable error. But, I don't do much HS, so hopefully this won't hapen. Knock on wood.

What are they teaching you down there Mulk?
 

Have you guys ever heard of the stop sign? Seriously, have you ever looked at the table as the lead and then counted the players (which is your responsibility too btw)? Who is on the court is everyone's responsibility. You cannot pass that off on one official. No wonder it keeps happening, the attitude that you are displaying here is suggestive that you "pass the buck" off on your partners. I cannot even remember when this happen to me it has been so long ago. That is rookie stuff. When you are the lead, you should look at the table. Look at your partner that called the foul. Make sure you have the same foul situation that he/she has. If there is someone at the table, you point to the table or gesture in a way that lets your partner know there is someone there. If he realizes someone is there and that person is waiting on the second shot or the shooter, he should make not only eye contact, but open his mouth. Ten seconds or less have gone by. And if there are subs coming in, quickly count yourself, do not rely on your partners. That is so rountine, it does not happen. The Center and the Trail official should both be aware of the substitutes and give the Lead the "stop sign" to make sure he/she does not administer the FT before everyone is ready. I understand this can happen, but it is extreamely preventable. And I can tell you this. If you are being evaluated and someone see this, you all are going down in flames. This is not just one officials problem.

Peace

Rut, I agree it is preventable. Its been years since it happened with me. Like many mistakes, this happens because we loose our focus. We are thinking about a previous play or we are watching a couple of players and just going through the motions. My point is, this obviously has happened to some very good officials or the NCAA wouldn't be addressing it. I don't care how good you think you are, sometimes ***t happens and you screw up.

Just a mistake?
 

Do not get caught up in what Ron is trying to say. Of course it happens to officials. But most officials will not say they should have not made that mistake. And it is still classified as a "rookie mistake" in many official's eyes. And yes, veterans make "rookie mistakes." I understand what you think, but it is still a very preventable situation. And to try to act like it is not, is just not good in my eyes. Because if you just pass it off as a "mistake" all the time, then you might justify it when it happens. I have made many mistakes in my career when I am on the court, I just to do justify them and say, "oh well." Dammit, it just should not happen. ;)

Peace

OK Rut, I concur.

Working hard
 

Rut,

. I am a lot better official because I have started play with more than 5 players. I am a lot better official because I have lined up the players on the wrong blocks on the free throw. I am a lot better official because I have had blarges in my games. I am a lot better official because I have started an O.T. going the wrong way. I am a lot better official because this DQ situation has happened to me. As the old boy down here told me "Mulk, I tried oral sex on a guy one time and I didn't like it. So, I know I am not homosexual. Then he said that if you hadn't tried it, you might be and not know it? My point is, I did not like those embarrassing moments and I do try hard not to repeat them. What does Mick say - Live and learn. And, I have lived a lot.

But, whatever it is they are teaching us down here, it ain't working. I guess we just have to work harder at it down here than they do up in Chicago. By the way, where is Bob Jenkins from? :>)

Re: Working hard
 

I worked with Bob earlier this month, it did not happen in our game. I have done probably 20 college games (Men's and Women's), it has never happen there. I work in a conference where I can assign the officials to my crew, never happen in my game (worked together for 3 years, only working 3 games a year). I have worked with a guy downstate, specifically in Galesburg, Illinois, I usually have done at the very least 15 games a year for about 5 years with him, never happen in our games. I have worked with many more guys than Bob (this year alone), it has not happen this year in any other games.

This is way more preventable than a blarge. At least a blarge you can get screened and not hear your partner's whistle. In an effort to sell the call you just signal without seeing or hearing your partner. Ask me how many times that has happen to me? You have nothing but time and opportunity to prevent this from happening. What is the freakin hurry to put the ball in play? You have somewhere to go? You have a hot date? You start losing your check for each second the clock is not running? What is the rush? :D

Peace

Rut,

Read an earlier post by Bob. Twice already this year? When you see him, ask him how it happened. I saw this DQ situation happen to a D1 official one night.

This will be my last post on this unless you want to take this offline, but i do want to say that in a 3 person crew, you only make up .3333 of that crew.

Mulk

Ron,

Why don't you ask him? It happen to him not me. :rolleyes:

Peace

How it happened?

In neither case did the table sound a horn. They just held up 5 fingers as the official was reporting the foul.

In neither case did the calling official make a strong enough signal to the partners on what was going on.

In NCAA, since you stay table-side, the ball can be put in play sooner than in HS, and officials become "accustomed" to doing so nearly as soon as the players are lined up and the C is in place.

IF it happens again, I'll enforce the NCAA ruling in those games and the "our error, but it's not correctable" interp in FED games.