First big goof-up-

[sleebo]

My partner and I "dropped the ball" last night...As we opened up the fourth quarter, we accidentally let the teams go the wrong way. White took the throw in from half court like they should have, but we sent them going away from their bench instead of toward it. They inbound the ball, bring it into the (wrong) frontcourt, pass it around and then drill a 3. About 14 seconds run off the clock and then we realize we screwed up. I was the U in this two-whistle game, so luckily I didn't have to make the final decision, but I still had input into the decision that was made (I'm almost positive we did it wrong). Here's what we did: since the basket was scored in red's basket, we gave 3 points to red and gave the ball OOB to red for a throw-in during which they were permitted to run the baseline if needed. After getting home and taking a look at the books, it seems from the simplified and illustrated book that we should have given the basket to the white team, instructed the teams to go the right way from that point forward and it would have been red ball with the baseline run permitted. SO...TWO QUESTIONS...WERE WE WRONG IN WHAT WE DID? and IS MY "RIGHT" ANSWER REALLY CORRECT?

*Note: The white team was up by about 30 points when this happened, so we were fortunate that our mistake(s) did not play into the outcome of the game

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by sleebo
SO...TWO QUESTIONS...WERE WE WRONG IN WHAT WE DID? and IS MY "RIGHT" ANSWER REALLY CORRECT?

Yes. Yes.

[danpri]

Points go to those who scored them.

Reset direction correctly.

Give ball to team that did not score on the opposite side baseline (the one they should be on) with full run.

[Hawks Coach]

Witnessed a bigger screw-up two days ago. Teams are aligned wrong for overtime jump ball. I was just an observer, but I noticed it right away and told the people sitting around me. There was a red violation on the jump, and the refs and some of the players on white understood that the teams were going the wrong way. Three white players are lined up at the true offensive end of the court, red has two players at each end and one in the middle, and everyone appears confused.

Instead of the refs clarifying, they hand the ball to the inbounder, she inbounded to a point guard in backcourt, and she comes to the front court (while the inbounder screams at her thinking it is a backcourt violation - she didn't even know what way they were going). While red tries to sort out what was going on, white passes to the block and gets the quick score. Red coach was understandably POd, red team gets distracted and loses ball, white team hits a three, and the rout is on.

Refs needed to get the teams set right before the re-start.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Witnessed a bigger screw-up two days ago. Teams are aligned wrong for overtime jump ball. I was just an observer, but I noticed it right away and told the people sitting around me. There was a red violation on the jump, and the refs and some of the players on white understood that the teams were going the wrong way. Three white players are lined up at the true offensive end of the court, red has two players at each end and one in the middle, and everyone appears confused.

Instead of the refs clarifying, they hand the ball to the inbounder, she inbounded to a point guard in backcourt, and she comes to the front court (while the inbounder screams at her thinking it is a backcourt violation - she didn't even know what way they were going). While red tries to sort out what was going on, white passes to the block and gets the quick score. Red coach was understandably POd, red team gets distracted and loses ball, white team hits a three, and the rout is on.

Refs needed to get the teams set right before the re-start.

Speaking of screw-ups...

HS game, neither I nor my partner noticed the shot clock was at 30 instead of 35 to start the game. (Actually we saw it was at 35 when they tested it pregame but somehow it got moved to 30.) A wins the tip, scores in the first few seconds. B's coming up, I'm trail counting, I look up at shot clock and see it's at 29..."oh boy, here we go...note to self: talk to the shot clock operator at first dead ball"...normally I would have stopped the game right there but there was no BC pressure and I really, really, really expected B to get a shot off...and of course the clock gets down to 2 before they get off a shot which goes OOB. I go to table, tell her she screwed up & please remember to reset the clock. She and the clock operator look at me like I have 3 eyes and say "we did reset it!" Oh...now I'm thinking I'm glad I kept my mouth shut but wondering how I could have missed those 5 seconds.

Partner goes to inbound the ball, I look at the shot clock & it resets to 30. Ah-ha! Tweet! We get it straightened out and coach B asks if he can have those 5 seconds back later, when he needs it.

[missinglink]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Yes. Yes.

A twist on above. Last night at JV girls, I am a spectator and observed this with about three minutes left in 2nd quarter. A1 scores on a try.
SCOREBOARD: A 17, B 21.
B1 inbounds to B2 in A's free throw lane. B2 is confused and makes field goal in A's basket.
SB: A 19, B 21.
To prove that brain farts are contagious, A1 takes the ball on the end line and passes in to A2 who proceeds up the court and scores in B's goal.
SB: A 19, B23.
B3 takes the ball on the end line and passes into B2 who promptly scores a goal in B's basket.
SB A 19, B 25.

At this point official grants time out to Coach A who has had enough fun. Officials huddle with scorer and timer, leave all scores on the board and game continues with Team A throw in and both teams going the right direction.

First question: No question that the first wrong way bucket by B2 stays on the board but was the throw in by A1 a violation? I believe it was, but couldn't find an exact reference. Violation or not, when was the last point the officials could have whistled (something) and set things right?

2nd: While 4.5.4 applies in the case that started this thread, it doesn't seem to apply througout the followup I have provided and the scoreboard results should stand?

[LSams]

just another thought on this situation.

If a player takes a shot at the wrong basket from behind the 3-point arch, and hits the shot. Yes points are awarded to the other team -- but only 2 points -- as the players actions are by definition not a shot attmempt, because the player was not shooting at the proper basket. On the same note, if this player were to have been fouled while making this "shot attempt" it would be a common foul, not a shooting foul, and his/her team would be awarded the ball out of bounds or given bonus free-throws.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by missinglink

A twist on above. Last night at JV girls, I am a spectator and observed this with about three minutes left in 2nd quarter. A1 scores on a try.
SCOREBOARD: A 17, B 21.
B1 inbounds to B2 in A's free throw lane. B2 is confused and makes field goal in A's basket.
SB: A 19, B 21.
To prove that brain farts are contagious, A1 takes the ball on the end line and passes in to A2 who proceeds up the court and scores in B's goal.
SB: A 19, B23.
B3 takes the ball on the end line and passes into B2 who promptly scores a goal in B's basket.
SB A 19, B 25.

At this point official grants time out to Coach A who has had enough fun. Officials huddle with scorer and timer, leave all scores on the board and game continues with Team A throw in and both teams going the right direction.

First question: No question that the first wrong way bucket by B2 stays on the board but was the throw in by A1 a violation? I believe it was, but couldn't find an exact reference. Violation or not, when was the last point the officials could have whistled (something) and set things right?

2nd: While 4.5.4 applies in the case that started this thread, it doesn't seem to apply througout the followup I have provided and the scoreboard results should stand?

No question that the first "wrong" basket counts, and no question that the last one doesn't. See 10.something (10.1.9?) "A specific unsportsmanlike act" for how to treat the last "wrong basket."

The issue is what to do with's A's inbounding (which should have been caught and dealt with by the same case), or A's backcourt violation, or A's "wrong" basket.

These (well, the time period for correction) aren't covered in the rules, so (almost) anything the officials do with that is correct.

Some would apply the correctable error time period, some would say that the error can only be corrected "immediately".

Personally, I think I'd allow the first two "wrong" baskets, disallow the third and give A the ball on the baseline with the score A19, B23.

[Hawks Coach]

I think Bob's solution is probably best, but you could make a case for taking it back to the baseline under A's basket and giving ball to B as well, and just realize that everybody here screwed up quite a bit to get to this point. Not sure that I consider B's act to be unsporting, as everybody tends to assume that after one team puts ball in bucket, other team gets ball. So inbounding it after A has done same at opposite end is not unsporting, and scoring in your own basket because you realize everybody else's error is similarly not unsporting.

What a wacky play though, complicated by officials who were no mor ewith it than the players.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by danpri
Points go to those who scored them.

Reset direction correctly.

Give ball to team that did not score on the opposite side baseline (the one they should be on) with full run.

The ball is put in play at the point of interruption. It does not change ends of the floor.

We discussed this in a thread last week.

[Adam]

Originally posted by missinglink
A twist on above. Last night at JV girls, I am a spectator and observed this with about three minutes left in 2nd quarter. A1 scores on a try.
SCOREBOARD: A 17, B 21.
B1 inbounds to B2 in A's free throw lane. B2 is confused and makes field goal in A's basket.
SB: A 19, B 21.
To prove that brain farts are contagious, A1 takes the ball on the end line and passes in to A2 who proceeds up the court and scores in B's goal.
SB: A 19, B23.
B3 takes the ball on the end line and passes into B2 who promptly scores a goal in B's basket.
SB A 19, B 25.

At this point official grants time out to Coach A who has had enough fun. Officials huddle with scorer and timer, leave all scores on the board and game continues with Team A throw in and both teams going the right direction.

First question: No question that the first wrong way bucket by B2 stays on the board but was the throw in by A1 a violation? I believe it was, but couldn't find an exact reference. Violation or not, when was the last point the officials could have whistled (something) and set things right?

2nd: While 4.5.4 applies in the case that started this thread, it doesn't seem to apply througout the followup I have provided and the scoreboard results should stand?

If the officials are aware of what's happening. After B's mistaken basket in A's hoop (which was correctly credited to A), B should have the ball again. Once A grabbed it, you've got two options to stop the madness. Give A a delay of game warning (they should have known better, they'd just scored down there), give B the ball running the endline, and remind the teams which direction they are going. Or you could just blow it dead and give B the ball without a warning. I'd be inclined to warn them.

Once you've allowed A to inbound the ball after B put the ball in the wrong basket. You could have called A for a backcourt violation. It gives B the ball that they should have had, and punishes A for not paying attention, too.

[w_sohl]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Witnessed a bigger screw-up two days ago. Teams are aligned wrong for overtime jump ball. I was just an observer, but I noticed it right away and told the people sitting around me. There was a red violation on the jump, and the refs and some of the players on white understood that the teams were going the wrong way. Three white players are lined up at the true offensive end of the court, red has two players at each end and one in the middle, and everyone appears confused.

Instead of the refs clarifying, they hand the ball to the inbounder, she inbounded to a point guard in backcourt, and she comes to the front court (while the inbounder screams at her thinking it is a backcourt violation - she didn't even know what way they were going). While red tries to sort out what was going on, white passes to the block and gets the quick score. Red coach was understandably POd, red team gets distracted and loses ball, white team hits a three, and the rout is on.

Refs needed to get the teams set right before the re-start.

I completely disagree! It is the players job to know which way they are going just as much as it is ours. It is not our responsibility to tell the players they are going the wrong way. Look at it this way, and this is a true story. Coach runs a play where his player line up under the wrong basket for an inbound in an attempt to confuse the other team and catch a break when one of the players breaks for the correct basket. Now if you are going to tell teh players that they are going the wrong way you are going to completely take away any advantage that that team had. The coaches and players need to know just as much as we do.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by w_sohl
It is not our responsibility to tell the players they are going the wrong way.

No, but it is our job to tell them which way they should be going before we put the ball in play. Fed Official's Manual, paragraph 217, page 30.

Indicate which direction they should be going. If they then get fooled by the backcourt ploy (ah, yes, I know it well!), it's their own fault.

[PublicBJ]

Originally posted by w_sohl
I completely disagree! It is the players job to know which way they are going just as much as it is ours. It is not our responsibility to tell the players they are going the wrong way. Look at it this way, and this is a true story. Coach runs a play where his player line up under the wrong basket for an inbound in an attempt to confuse the other team and catch a break when one of the players breaks for the correct basket. Now if you are going to tell teh players that they are going the wrong way you are going to completely take away any advantage that that team had. The coaches and players need to know just as much as we do.

My alma matter tried this once when I was refereeing. They told me before the quarter started that they were going to do it, and would I please not give it away. I told them that "I would do what I always do at the start of a quarter." Alma matter lines up the wrong way (trying to draw the other team into going the wrong way. Just before I administer the throw-in, I say: "Red ball, going this way!" (Pointing the right direction.) Alma matter was upset with me...

But it's true: before every throw-in to start a period or any other pause in the game (timeout, etc.), I always give color and direction. I think that it's simple preventative officiating to avoid situations like this thread is talking about, and also prevents teams from doing crap like my alma matter wanted to do, which is not in the spirit of the game.

[stripes]

Originally posted by sleebo
I was the U in this two-whistle game, so luckily I didn't have to make the final decision, but I still had input into the decision that was made (I'm almost positive we did it wrong).

Why is being the U a cop out to letting someone else take the heat. Step up! Be the ref who fixes problems. Take some heat if you have to, but cowboy up and get it done and done right. Back in the Saddle talked about this a week or so ago--stepping up and being "the man" on his game. This is one way to show the people who matter that you are ready to do more and better games.