Excessive Elbow Violation

[BigJoe]

Thanks for the reply. I think we are on the same page. We, as officials, have to protect the rebounder from getting mauled once they secure the ball so they won't feel like they have to keep the defenders at bay with elbows.

[BK]

Mine yesterday was EASY!!! Kid gets the ball just over the division line, gets trapped with the ball and pivots three times with the elbows out at nose level of the defenders. The first pivot, I stepped toward the play, the second pivot, my red flag went up, and the third one that almost connected with a nose got the whistle. The coach and I have a pretty good relationship, he wasn't being a jerk about it, and I didn't want to create an adversarial situation since I have to come back for a varsity assignment in a couple of weeks. I was very confident in my assessment of the situation. I'm sure that he just hadn't seen the call made much and was somewhat surprised with the whole issue. That got me to thinking...how many times has this coach seen this call made? I seriously doubt that it wasn't much...and based on you guys' responses, I'm right.

[justacoach]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
To me, "clearing" is just what the rule is designed to prevent. If a coach is teaching that, he's at fault when I call it. If a player extends the elbows to protect the ball, fine. But if he swings them (any discernable lateral movement other than a full-body pivot). I suppose I'm looking to see if he is swiveling his hips rather than pivoting on his pivot foot axis. Or, if the arms move and the rest of the body does not. If he pivots, and the elbows move with the rest of his body, no violation.
I'm still debating on the hip swivel, however.

Hip swivel or shoulder swivel deserves the violation, this is the epitome of throwing an elbow and if contact is made with a defender, call a foul commensurate with the contact.

What do you have in the case of a full body pivot with contact resulting on an opponent and how would you square your decision with ...
Rules Chapter 9 SECTION 13 EXCESSIVE SWINGING OF ARM(S)/ELBOW(S)???

ART. 1 . . . A player shall not excessively swing his/her arms(s) or elbow(s), even without contacting an opponent.
ART. 2 . . . A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body.
ART. 3 . . . Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.
We see this call quite frequently as we actively coach our players to pivot in accordance with the rule cited above especially Art 3 It seems many officials are inclined to call violation, or even a COMMON FOUL, when they see any elbow movement. As you will recall, PC is acceptable as is Flagrant or even a T, but it can never be a common foul based on my reading. With the POE as of last year they reflexively feel they must call something even in cases where the ballhandler is exerting total body movement.

NB COACH TALKING!!!!

Thanks for your insights


[Edited by justacoach on Jan 11th, 2004 at 07:09 PM]

[Mike Burns]

Originally posted by BigJoe
We, as officials, have to protect the rebounder from getting mauled once they secure the ball so they won't feel like they have to keep the defenders at bay with elbows.

I completely agree with this statement.

Sorry, I missunderstood your origional question. I would have to agree with Snag that when it comes to contact between teammates I got nothin'.

[ChuckElias]

I've called it once, earlier this season.

[BK]

So I kicked it???


Geeze Louise!!! Now I'll never call it again!

[Adam]

Originally posted by BK
So I kicked it???

Not necessarily. I'd say you could even call a full body pivot, if you felt he was using it to "clear" out space. I'd have to see that one, though.

[Mregor]

Originally posted by BigJoe
What do we consider swinging of the elbows? Is clearing themselves with the elbows parallel to the floor swinging the elbows?

I was given the interpretation that it had to be a swing in one direction and a return. Elbows must be turning faster than the torso for this to be a violation. That's how I've called it and I have called 1 in two years.

Mregor

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mregor
[/B]

I was given the interpretation that it had to be a swing in one direction and a return. Elbows must be turning faster than the torso for this to be a violation. That's how I've called it and I have called 1 in two years.

[/B][/QUOTE]Why does the swing have to include a return?

[Mregor]

You'd have to ask the state rep who conducted the rules meeting. I only call them how they want it called.

Mregor

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mregor
You'd have to ask the state rep who conducted the rules meeting. I only call them how they want it called.

If your state rep sez so, then that's what you gotta call. I don't agree with him, though. If a player shoots an elbow(faster than he's pivoting),stops it just short of hitting someone but doesn't return the elbow, that certainly meets the spirit and intent of the rule,imo.