Has everyone except me adopted an advantage/disadvantage philosophy to travel calls? It seems that I see it more and more, mainly on a catch on the wing. The player moves one foot and then the other. It looks like some of them make a point of it. No call. I'm not talking fractions of an inch, but "He had to see that!" movement. Is the idea he's not going anywhere, no advantage, play on? Or is it just me? again

I miss some, pass some, but never guess 'em.

I would encourage you not to take the
 

approach you are suggesting, unless it's frosh girls, etc..

Good footwork is the heart and soul of real basketball. Iverson is remarkably righteous that way - it can be done. It's a challenge to see the many ways of traveling. Don't back off.

I have adopted the adv/disadv. view of traveling.

Two days ago, I'm trail and the ball is passed to a player on the wing. The player, the coach and myself form a nice little triangle. He receives the pass with no pressure and takes two little steps backwards. The coach says in my ear: "He traveled". But to me there was no advantage: no drive, no shot.

This afternoon, we had a player receive a pass in her backcourt when a defender jumps in front of her. She shuffles her feet. Tweet, traveling.

I have incorporated that in my game with a fair amount of success. Even a fairly "old" ref in my zone who was adamant that traveling should always be called (no matter what) is changing his tune a bit.

Also in FIBA, adv/disadv is encouraged for fouls AND violations. So we have the rulebook to back us up. My games are divided between FIBA rules (HS) and NCAA rules (College)


Jay


[Edited by Jay R on Jan 10th, 2004 at 02:14 PM]

In a varsity game I would call the travel every single time.

As JTR said, if it's a Frosh-G game I might use more of a adv/disadv philosophy. Nobody came to the game to hear me call 110 traveling violations (fans just don't know how to appreciate a great traveling signal :)), so I tend to pass on a minor shuffle of the feet when there is obviously no advantage gained.

Guess what chirp you will hear from the coach of the less coordinated team at the middle school - freshman level game?

Hint: It gets increasingly louder and more insistent (and annoying) as the coach's team falls further behind. :D


To address the original posting... adv/disadv at middle school. By the book at HS level.

Men's Juco game this afternoon. 1st half, A1 catches the ball just outside the 3-point arc with both feet on the floor. A1 hops (jumps off both feet and lands left foot, right foot) about 6 inches to the right. Tweet! I call the travel. The kid looks at me like he's never even heard of a travel.

2nd half, A1 catches the ball outside the 3-point arc. A1 then steps forward with his right foot, followed immediately by the left foot. Tweet! I call the travel.

This time the coach wants to know what's up. "Not on the shot! Not on the shot!" Like it's ok to travel if you're "stepping into" the shot. He then demonstrates the correct technique by pretending to catch the ball, taking 2 steps and saying "One, two!" Like, "See, it's the 1-2 method!" I said, "Coach, that's an NBA rule. Not college." Gave him a shrug. He was baffled. I mean absolutely flabbergasted.

But that play gets passed on so much that a lot (maybe most) coaches and players just assume it's legal. Not in my game. Oh well.

Over the last couple of years a misconception has been spreading through the basketball officiating world that advantage/disadvantage applies to violations (3 seconds is the exception). Advantage/disadvantage applies to fouls.

A travel is a travel is a travel; B1 scores and A1 steps onto the court before releasing the ball on the throw-in is a violation is a violation is violation. The NCAA is even on record concerning this. But the reality is that we officiate to the level of play.

The FED is on record also for the same violation--casebook play 9.2.5. As per 9.2.5COMMENT- <i>"Whether or not there was defensive pressure or whether or not stepping on the court was inadvertant, it is a violation and <b>no</b> judgement is required in making the call"</i>.

Why do you thing advantage/disadvantage should be applied to 3 seconds but not to other violations?

Because I have been officiating basketball for 32 years and have not called 3 seconds in 35 years.

That's a helluva reason.

But actually, I was hoping for a straight answer.

Now for the straight answer. I do call 3 seconds, but not very many, not because I do not believe in calling 3 seconds, but I think that the call is too often not called correctly, and it is my opinion that eventually, that 3 seconds will be removed from the rules.

But my question is why do you think advantage/disadvantage should be applied to 3 seconds but not other violations? I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I'm just curious about that philosophy.

I do not know if I can put it into words, but I will give an example. Team A has the ball in its front court. A1 (he/she could be the 6'-06" center or the 5'-06" point guard) is standing at the free throw line to set a screen. A1 has one foot about four inches into the paint. Tweet!! Three seconds. How does this effect the play? I hope this answers your question.

I understand advantage/disadvantage. What I'm asking you is why do you feel it should only apply to 3 seconds and not other violations? I don't know how to make it any clearer.

Here's an example for you. A1 is dribbling the ball up the floor, still in the BC. The defense is packed back in a tight zone with the closest defender 40' away from A1. While dribbling, A1 carries the ball on one dribble.

Are you going to call that? How does this effect the play? It's no different than the play you describe feom an advantage/disadvantage viewpoint. If you don't call it, then you've applied advantage/disadvantage.

Comments?

I don't know about you, but I am going to call the violation on A1 in your play. I think the difference is that 3 seconds is a violation that is normally associated with a player that does not have control of the ball. Its just one of those I know it when I see it type of plays. And I don't see it very often.

There's no rationale to that type of logic.

You ignore the 3 second call because you don't like the rule, yet you call the palming.

That is no difference whatsoever, with regards to advantage/disadvantage in the two plays. But you apply it to one and not the other.

BTW, I disagree with that 3 seconds will be eliminated. In a day when rough play is a POE every year, the NF is not going to eliminate a rule that will lead to increased rough play in the lane.

Me too, Chuck. This is exactly the answer that I was looking for. As to the original post, I was not referring to low level, "They can't help it!" calls, but more the high school star trying to duplicate the move he saw on tv call. As for the 2 steps on a shot thing, I have said before that under a microscope I think probably well over half of all layups could be called a travel, but if you have doubt, you have to let it go. (if it mighta been a travel, it ain't a travel) BUT, when a player slows the whole thing down and is obviously standing flat footed and then takes his "only two more steps" my whistle goes off by itself. ALSO, when a player is shooting a layup but incorporates a 360 degree turn into it, I don't recall seeing that done legally in high school very often. "I know Penny Hardaway does it, but you ain't him."

Thanks guys, I feel better now.

I wouldn't call the palming -- because I wouldn't even be watching an unattended dribbler. To me that seems to be a waste of a pair of eyes.

Not saying that I haven't had interesting moments -- girls varsity last season, girl bringing ball up court. All of a sudden lead partner blows whistle and calls a double dribble on the ball carrier. I wasn't watching her -- and it was apparent that for some reason she forgot how to bring the ball up the floor.

I called an 8th grade tourny this weekend... I wait and see if they gained anything by three seconds or if the post play is bad for three seconds. Someone camping out not getting anything... now a girl has been in the lane 4 maybe 5 seconds - basically longer than 3) and she gets a ball bam - 3 seconds... even if she was there for longer. My mentor, as big of a jerk he can be when talking to me sometimes (I dont mind it because his son told me today that his dad just wants to see me be a GREAT official somewhere someday because he's my potential so he's just harder on me than the rest of the guys -always in private though), is really trying to get me into the advantage/disadvangte frame of mind for officiating and so far to me, its the ONLY way to officiate basketball.

in 6 games this weeked (for this particular tournament) i called 8 3-seconds... in 2 games in another tourny I called 2 and they were in the 1st game.

I gotta ask
 

You just remember all this or is somebody writing your biography or what?

Three seconds is about flow, about spacing,
 

Had that happen ... incorrectly!
 

I had one last week, and it drives me crazy. I'm trail in three man crew and A1 catches pass in FC and stumbles with his left foot, but maintains his pivot right foot.

I'm trailing the play since it was a long pass but I am watching the pivot foot and my C calls traveling.

It looked like he traveled but he did not.

I see this happen way too much. Officials call traveling when it looks like it and not actually when they've traveled.

And it could be because it was right in front of the bench and the coach was calling for a travel etc.,

But, still that doesn't make it the right call.

As far as traveling I think we do a pretty good job of calling in the front court, but I think we miss way too many in the paint.

Thanks
DAvid

Chuck,

I'm definitely with you on this point. I call travelling all of the time on shooters that have to "set their feet" by taking two steps to get a shot off!! I get a look from them like, "what??". All you have to do is watch them warm up and it is unbelievable how they can't take a shot without travelling first. If I was a coach, I would tell the players they were doing this. But that would make too much sense for a coach to do something like that. I believe that these travels have to be called because the player is definitely gaining an advantage by adjusting both feet. Why aren't all officials calling this play correctly? I especially like the player catching the ball inside the arc and taking two steps back to get behind the line and launching a shot!!

"keep 'em straight up"

JAR - I tend to remeber my numbers pretty good so I could break down the game in my head on the way home. And when the highest scoring game that you call out of the whole two weekend is 29 28(OT BABY!) You remeber the little things like that (or atleast I do).

Never guess.
 

I am pretty much with Mick on this on. But get the obvious ones, the others are not so important in my opinion.

Peace

I'm not a coach, but I played for a few, and I've reffed for quite a few. I'd say for a lot of them the problem is that the players don't believe them until it gets called by a ref. Of course, at the high school (or even upper AAU) level, the coaches should have sufficient control and authority to enforce this themselves.

Adam