3-3 Defense

SteveF · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2004, 07:53am

Elementary game last night I was the umpire. Not long after the start of the 4th quarter I realize that team A is playing a 3-3 defense. I quickly count team players and sure is six of them on the floor. Whistle and team T. This is a case where we never should have put the ball into play and I feel a mistake by us officials for allowing it to happen. By the rule book the call was right but at that level what would you have done?

KingTripleJump · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2004, 08:01am

Yes give a T. Everyone in the gym would know why. I'm surprised you didn't have parents yelling "there's 6 on the floor!" or something like that.

Learn 'em while they're young.

But to prevent this, always count the players yourself, even if your partner(s) count for you. This is also something that can/should be discussed in pregame.

garote · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2004, 08:25am

For me it depends on how far we got into the game before I would call the "T". From your post I would have call the "T", but if we just in bounded and no real play has started I'll stop the play get the extra off and start from there.

No.....I have no rule or case reference for this...I'm not going to penalize the kids because I can't or didn't count.

BktBallRef · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2004, 09:57am

Quote:

Originally posted by garote
For me it depends on how far we got into the game before I would call the "T". From your post I would have call the "T", but if we just in bounded and no real play has started I'll stop the play get the extra off and start from there.

No.....I have no rule or case reference for this...I'm not going to penalize the kids because I can't or didn't count.

But you're going to penalize the other team.

They have a coach. The coach is just as responsibile, if not moreso, than you are to make sure there are only 5 on the floor.

If the ball is inbounded and there are 6 on the floor, there's no choice.

Back In The Saddle · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2004, 10:29am

I'm surprised at the number of times I've heard officials talk about it being their fault if there are six or more players on the floor. Yes, we should be practicing preventive officiating and yes we should catch this. However, if we don't the responsibility still lies squarely on the coach for allowing more of his/her players on the floor than is legal.

rcwilco · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2004, 12:16pm

In my pregame we discuss for all subs, time outs, etc. the non administering offical counts players before telling or communicationg that they are ready for the throw in. Helps a lot, particulary with new officials.

Snake~eyes · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2004, 12:34pm

Had same situation. At the beginning, I caught it about 5 seconds in, stopped it, took the one off and re-inbounded the ball. I forgot to count and since it was elementary kids we didn't T.

IowaMike · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2004, 01:43pm

I would always issue a T for 6 players. It has happened to me 2 times that I can remember. I do feel partially responsible when it does happen; however, I also feel that ultimately it is the coaches responsibility to make sure they have the correct number of players on the floor. On one of the occasions it happened to me, we had counted the players correctly and right after the ball was inbounded, a player came running onto the floor from the bench to make six, not much we could do to prevent that. I know that if I were the coach of the non offending team, I would be pretty upset if the T were not issued.

Adam · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2004, 02:02pm

Mike,
I would just add one caveat, and I mention it only because of the original situation in this thread. At the elementary level, I might be more inclined to take care of the problem without a T if I caught it right after the throw in. However, if a player comes running onto the court after the ball has been inbounded? I'll have a T at any level above 2nd grade (note, this is an arbitrary cutoff point).

Forksref · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2004, 03:13pm

It's not our fault, but I still count players after substitutions are made and prior to the ball becoming live again. I haven't called a foul for 6 players in more than 20 years.

In an elementary game, I wouldn't call a T if it was right after the throw in. Give em a break.

Back In The Saddle · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2004, 04:40pm

In a game yesterday, B came out to start the quarter with SEVEN players. I was faithfully counting, but that many players is pretty easy to spot

JugglingReferee · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2004, 04:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
I'm surprised at the number of times I've heard officials talk about it being their fault if there are six or more players on the floor. Yes, we should be practicing preventive officiating and yes we should catch this. However, if we don't the responsibility still lies squarely on the coach for allowing more of his/her players on the floor than is legal.

In the time that I've become "a decent ref," I have no memory of ever having to call a T for this.

I count how many players go off and how many go on the court. Then, I re-count, many times twice, to make sure there are 5 for each team on the court. However, I also officiate football and I count (twice) to 12 every play, so for me counting is no big deal.

Sure, it's a T. However, in my mind, the ref screwed up just as much as the coach.

zebraman · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2004, 04:45pm

I agree that you have to give a T if you discover 6 players while the ball is live. I also agree that it is just as much the officials fault as it is the coaches.

Z

Back In The Saddle · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2004, 05:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
I'm surprised at the number of times I've heard officials talk about it being their fault if there are six or more players on the floor. Yes, we should be practicing preventive officiating and yes we should catch this. However, if we don't the responsibility still lies squarely on the coach for allowing more of his/her players on the floor than is legal.

In the time that I've become "a decent ref," I have no memory of ever having to call a T for this.

I count how many players go off and how many go on the court. Then, I re-count, many times twice, to make sure there are 5 for each team on the court. However, I also officiate football and I count (twice) to 12 every play, so for me counting is no big deal.

Sure, it's a T. However, in my mind, the ref screwed up just as much as the coach.

The reason I made the original statement is that I hear officials talking about not giving the T, at least in part, because "they screwed up." My real point is that if we fail to practice this obvious preventative officiating mechanic, we shouldn't let our failure color our decision as to whether or not to give the T.

RefRx · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2004, 05:12pm

That is an interesting statement. What do you do in football if you count 12, blow a whistle and have them leave the field? Don't see the difference in this or most technical situations. Give a T and move on. I will agree that we should have caught it prior to the throw-in and I try to always count, at every level, especially lower levels. But if I don't, the repsonsibility is on the coach and we take away from the other team by ignoring it.