Had two things happen tonight that I've never had happen before.

Girls game:
A1 hits a basket.
Ball goes through the net and bounces toward the FT line.
B1 grabs the ball and starts up the floor.
I know what to do.
Tweet! :)

Boys game:
I call shooting foul on B1.
Report, go to C.
L administers to A1.
A1 bounces ball.
He bounces some more.
He spends it in his hands.
He bounces it again.
"Hmmmmm" thinks I.
"This sure is taking a long time."
Finally shoots.
Second shot, I start counting.
"...9, 10, 11, 12."
I figured 12 was long enough.
Coach yells, "I told you somebody was gonna call you for that, sooner or later." :D

HS game over the weekend, team A drove about 75 miles to play team B (they don't know each other).

Start of second half, A's ball, coach A calls me over -

"Hey ref, we're gonna try a trick play, OK?"
"OK" :shrug:

I know what's coming, never seen it before, but interested to see if it would work. I stroll over to pard (R), he asks what did the coach want, I tell him A's gonna do something goofy. OK. :shrug: :shrug:

I go to A's endline, A goes to the other end, B follows them setting up in a nice tight zone. Pard bounces ball to A1, A2 breaks down the floor, easy layup. Team A fans are clapping and laughing in the stands. Team B looks like they think someone just ate their lunch but they're not quite sure. Coach B looks like he's sure he's been had, but can't figure out just how. Team A is cool.

B loses the ball in their end on their possession. Coach B jumps up and shouts to me

"Let me ask you a question"

Ah, I think to myself, constructive dialogue.

"Yes coach, what can I do for you?"
"I wanna ask you a question! Why were you standing all the way down there??" while pointing to A's end.
"Well coach, I'm supposed to be down there since that's where the ball was going to start the half."
"..........Oh.........OK then...."

Coach B sits down, I jog downcourt.

I had B again tonight as visitor this time. Before I bounce the ball to B1 to start the second half I ask "Know which way you're going, right?" B1 was not amused.

Odd Ball Plays/Dan Ref
 

Dan,

The one constent I see when I read this board is how most of the officials try to be professional and how coaches are critized quite often for all the questioning of calls, and our general lack for knowledge of the rules. Now with this being said I'm confused how you can want respect or think you deserve respect because your an official, but feel it is ok to make a wise *** remark to that coach for no apprant reason but you wanted to feel good about yourself. It is officials making comments like these why most of society does not respect or care about officials. I'm sorry that you feel as a person you have the right talk down to someone because you assume you are better. I hope there are not more officials like you out in the world.

Hmmm. I have a question on mechanics now. Let's say the ball bounces beyond the free throw line before B1 grabs it and starts dribbling. Where do you put the ball in play for A? Endline or sideline? I'm thinking sideling based on where the violation occurred, similar to a backcourt violation where it doesn't get touched til it nears the endline.

Adam

The violation is for not properly inbounding the ball. Therefore, the ball goes back to the endline.

Re: Odd Ball Plays/Dan Ref
 

Sorry coach, I must have missed something or maybe Dan deleted it. But I don't see a wiseass remark.

Re: Odd Ball Plays/Dan Ref
 

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cmmsdm/...s/rolleyes.gif

Tony,

You mean you called a violation? Maybe I misread. Didn't you just straighten out B's confusion and give them the ball under the basket where A just scored?

Z

Re: Re: Odd Ball Plays/Dan Ref
 

Really. I don't get it either. Could be that "all coaches are paranoid" training they give us showing its head ;)

But I would've probably tried to spoil A's fun since, as the R I tend to point the way the ball is going and emphasize it. Frankly, IMO there is no good that can possibly come to an official during a trick play. So I'd be pointing the proper way and hopefully the defense would get the hint. Eventually, I would put it in play anyway.

(Edited to add: I deleted the parallel thread started by BBallCoach, since the same comments were made above by the same poster)

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Jan 6th, 2004 at 11:49 PM]

Depending on the level, I'd call a violation, too. Freshman girls, maybe. Below that, I'd probably straighten her out. Above that, no question I'd call the violation.
I'm still thinking the violation occurs where the player is with the ball, just as a backcourt violation occurs where A1 touches the ball rather than at the half court line.

Adam

I guess now I'm confused... You would actually call this a violation and simply not whistle it back to the endline for a proper start.....
If you were really going to call any violation, wouldn't it be a technical for delay... Don't we still have a dead ball since the shot was made and the ball wasn't put into play at all?
Seems to be a no-call to me, back it up for a proper throw-in and put time back on the clock if neccessary.....

Re: Re: Re: Odd Ball Plays/Dan Ref
 

Thank you, Rich.

There used to be debate about this, when the throw-in team never gets out of bounds for the throw in after a shot. Do you call a throw in line violation? Or do you start your count and whistle at 5 seconds for that violation? I believe there has been a clarification (case book or rules, but I think it was case book) that says it's an immediate whistle once they start to play towards their basket.

I can't believe you guys don't remember the discussions.
 

For two consecutive years, we discussed this play. The size of the threads were easily the largest ever to grace this board, until last week. If the damn search engine worked, you could look it up. We discussed it to the point that the NFHS revised 9-2-2 last year.

In our discussions, we had several different opinions as to how to handle it. Quite frankly, there was no rulebook asnwer. Among some of the suggested rulings:

1- Whistle and make them inbound it properly.
2- Begin the five second count.
3- Give a delay of game warning.
4- Call a violation.

The NFHS issued 9.2.2C that states a violation should be called if A begins to advance the ball up the floor and is obviously not going to conduct a proper throw-in.

9.2.2C
9.2.2 SITUATION C: A1 scores a basket. After the ball goes through the net, B1 grabs it and makes a move toward the end line as though preparing to make a throw-in. However, B1 never legally steps out of bounds, both feet remain inbounds. B1 immediately passes the ball up the court to a fast-breaking teammate, who scores a basket.

RULING: Cancel Team B's goal, throw-in violation on B1. The ball was at B1's disposal after the made basket to make a throw-in. B1 must be out of bounds to make a legal throw-in.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 7th, 2004 at 12:35 AM]

I've seen this play work once, and it was a doozy. The team that pulled it off was down by like 25 at the half, and ended up losing by about 40. But I think they should have won just for succeeding at this one thing. The coach of Team B wasn't paying much attention, she was doing something with her clipboard, and when she looked up and realized what had just happened, she called an immediate time out and just reamed her players up one side and down the other. She's always a very positive and warm person, but she lost it then, and I don't blame her. Her team was supposed to be the best in the city, and just for that one moment they were completely covered with egg. For those of us who instinctively cheer for any underdog, it was a very sweet episode.

The coach asked Dan a question. Dan gave the coach a polite answer, appropriate to the question that he was asked.

With what you've said, I'm confused how YOU can want respect or think that you deserve respect because you are a coach, but feel that it is ok to make a wise*** remark to a referee for no apparent reason but you wanted to feel good about yourself.It is coaches making comments like yours why most of society does not respect or care about coaches. I'm sorry that you feel as a coach you have the right to talk down to someone because you assume you are better. I hope there are not more coaches like you out in the world.

Please don't reproduce.

JR -- Killing him with kindness -- new tactic?! Call it dry humor, and we'll all be rofl!

Re: Odd Ball Plays/Dan Ref
 

What do you want him to say? Where should he have gone? I think you just showed your hand with these comments. Nobody suggests a fellow official "smart-off" to a coach but when someone gives an answer that is obvious and a coach gets offended then that shows me that you have a chip on your shoulder.

Re: I can't believe you guys don't remember the discussions.
 

I think the key here is that in the case play, B1 initially makes a move towards the endline. In your example, she did not and may have not even been aware that the ball went in the basket. In your case, I think I would allow a restart.

Re: Re: I can't believe you guys don't remember the discussions.
 

The rules won't allow you to have a re-start. It's a violatio. It's that simple.

I have to agree with Smiley, the situations are not one and the same. In 9.2.2c B1 attempts an illegal throw in by not being out of bounds. In this case there is no throw in attempted. I can see delay, I can even see the 5 second count, however I can also see the validity in the argument that the player didn't know that the ball had gone through the hoop. I would be tempted to blow it dead and make them inbound it.

I'm sorry guys, but you're wrong. This is exactly the discussion we've had previously. The NF added the case book play to address this play. It makes no difference whether someone tossed her the ball or she just started up the floor with it, it's a violation. I simply blew the violation before she passed the ball to a teammate.

Also, this is a varsity girls basketball player, the ball is bouncing on the floor and everyone else, except a teammate have taken off to the opposite end. It's not up to me to tell her the ball went in the basket. She has to figure it out or her teammate has to tell her.

For two years, we discussed a delay or a 5 second warning but the Fed said "No, this is a violation."

The NFHS clarified this rule specifically to stop officials from having to use their own judgement as to how to call this type of play. The rule used to have a gray area in it; that gray area has been completely eliminated. Rule 9-2-2 couldn't be more explicit now.It is a violation. If you call it any other way,you are wrong, by rule!

As BktBallRef said, we spent weeks going over the different ways that this play could have be called under the old, vague language. The FED then changed the language, and it can only be called one way now- whether we agree with it, or not.

Re: Odd Ball Plays/Dan Ref
 

Thanks for the laugh coach.

I don't disagree that it probably at that level should be a violation, but that case book play is not even close to this play. The case book is a throw in from inside the boundary, and a throw in violation, this is just retrieving the ball and heading up court, as if it were a rebound, no throw in is even attempted. It could be an honest mistake, for crying out loud there are times that an official needs their partner to tell them that the ball went through the hoop why would it be hard to believe a player could be in the same boat. With all that said, since I didn't see all the discussions, I will defer to the majority, and 1) hope it never happens and 2) if it does, call it a violation

Wyoming, I can't argue with that. But you'll have to ask the player's partner why she didn't tell her teammate that the ball went in the basket. She's not my partner. :)

It probably was an honest mistake but so is not stepping completely OOB, stepping inbounds before releasing the ball, and throwing it in to a teammate who then steps OOB and throws it back in. And those are violations as well, even though they're honest mistakes.

There can't be a case play that's exactly like everything you'll ever see on the floor. But the same rule, intent and principle apply. Like JR said, whether we like it or not, it's a violation.

I have seen this trick play several times
 

It actually works about 1 out of 5. Usually in Jr High. The main thing to remember is not to be a part of the ruse. Make sure you use proper mechanics, get on the correct side. Call out the color and point as you would always do. The lead should be under the basket (alone). Othewise, you are helping the team in a trick play.

On the other end, I had a game where an A player got an offensive rebound after a scramble for the ball. Everyone took off down the court. The A caoch even had him come over to tell him a play before he went down the court. I am looking at his thinking "second half, they are shooting at this end..there is going to be a backcourt any minute". Sure enough. As soon as he stepped on the line, I blew the whistle and called the backcourt. I think I was the only one in the gym that realized it. As soon as I made the call, the coach just about fell ove.

Yeah and she has four partners we at the most have 2 LOL :)...... Not that it matters but did the coach have a fit or take it pretty well?

Re: I have seen this trick play several times
 

Just a question, but shouldn't the lead drift out a bit (maybe free throw line or so) as if covering a press? In case there's actually some activity to cover?

snaqwells

Not a peep.

Agreed
 

We're not instructed to box in the court but the players. Were you trying to make another hint to the defenders??? I don't think I would have been much passed the farthest player down the court... surely not standing alone, under the basket, 60 feet from the nearest player.

Re: Agreed
 

DTTB,
That's what I was getting at. People are talking about the L standing underneath the A's basket when T is at half court administering the throw-in, and 8 of the players are under B's basket. Right now we've got 8 players with no immediate supervision.
Boxing the players would require standing, at least, at the free throw extended of B's basket, an odd place for the L to be when you're heading the other way. I'm trying to figure out the proper positioning mechanic for this. Right now I'm thinking the L should actually be positioned at roughly half court on this play.

Adam

Re: Re: I have seen this trick play several times
 

Actually this is a great question, something I didn't think of. Our goal is to get in position to make good calls, and here I was 60 feet away from the nearest player. On the other hand my partner was OOB about halfway into A's backcourt (where everyone was) as he bounced the ball to A1. So....was I standing in the correct place. I think so, because to have moved significantly downcourt I would have been helping A "sell" their trick but more importantly everyone knew (or should have known) that A was going to attack the basket I was standing by. I was standing in the right place to make a good call as the play developed.

BTW, Juulie hit on something. In my play coach B decided to take his humiliation out on me, instead of taking a TO and regrouping (reaming?) his team. Out of character for him, he's a good guy and both are good teams - it was a good game even after this happened but B obviously came out napping and they paid for it at home. I found BBallCoach's
post funny because my first instinct would have been to bang his @ss as he jumped off the bench but I kinda felt his pain. Goes to show, no good deed goes unpunished.

Maybe I should have just ripped his arm off & beat him with the wet end, eh JR? ;)

Re: Re: Re: I have seen this trick play several times
 

Every once in a while, the odds are this'll happen, however accidental!

Maybe I should have just ripped his arm off & beat him with the wet end, eh JR?

[/B][/QUOTE]If you're in a good mood.

But if you're in a bad mood, ........(please don't make me say it. I'm trying to be good today).

I once thought I was seeing this player (sort of)...


3A Varisty Girls. First half. Team A calls a timeout with the ball being put in play under Team B's basket. Coming out of the timeout, looks like a full court press. All 10 players in the backcourt. I hand A1 the ball. A1 passes it in to A2 who proceeds to dribble to the top of the backcourt key. I'm think, oh, they're running a trick play. I'm counting to 10 thinking A2 is going to bolt to the other end any second now. They've got team B confused. Their play is going to work. Coach A is screaming (at his players). Partner (new lead), who's in front of the coach, says "Want a timeout?". Coach responds, "uh....yeah". There was no trick play. We contained our laughter until halftime. ;)

If you're in a good mood.

But if you're in a bad mood, ........(please don't make me say it. I'm trying to be good today). [/B][/QUOTE]

Hey, just go outside for a nice long walk, you'll feel better.

:p

If you'll tell who, I'll tell.

It's been a few years...not exactly sure. It was at either St. Helens or Scappoose. I can't remember if it was the home or the visitor. I'm also not sure who my partner was.

i don't need to know partner. My game was Lincoln JV vs Roosevelt JV. You know how mellow the Lincoln coach usually is. But she was in rare form that day!

:D

Prior to this, Chuck was one of the few who "guessed" what the NF would finally rule. :)

Until the rule was re-written last year, it was "not" a violation. ;)

It was always a violation. You guys just didn't interpret it right. :p

Here we go!
 

Then why did they change the rule AND add the case play? :)

To BBallCoach
 

Coach, the "kids" I ref for are big boys. And mostly they are big boys from the big city. I have no problem engaging in discussion with them. Sometimes we're angry and yell at each other, sometimes we laugh and joke with each other. Sometimes what we're laughing about is you, you should hear some of the stupid sh!t that comes out of your mouth, but that is an entirely different discussion. Having said that - when I asked B1 if he knew which way he was going it was obviously meant as a joke. It was obviously recieved as a joke, the kid half grinned half scowled and said "shut up". I laughed, he laughed and the half started.

So unbunch your panties and relax, OK? I know you're protective of your team but I aint gonna hurt them.

Violatio? Isn't that for mature basketball
 

audiences only?

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. If the player thinks the ball did go in when it didn't and steps out with it, what then?

Hey, just go outside for a nice long walk, you'll feel better.]/B][/QUOTE]
Just don't trip over any robins. . .

Violatio? Isn't that for mature basketball audiences only? [/B][/QUOTE]

Good one, Jeff!!

I wouldn't call a violation here. I would blow my whistle to stop the player and tell him/her it needs to be taken out on the baseline.

You can call what you like but the rule and case play say it's a violation.

We had this play pulled on our JV in the second game of the year. Since then the last thing we say out of every huddle is "which way are we going" JV and Varsity.

Speaking of the reverse direction - little kid's rec ball, my brother is on the team, and this was the first game I've watched in person as a spectator in waaaay too long.

First game of the season, so of course the teams are lined up wrong coming out of the half. L is in the proper position. My brother inbounds the ball, and he and A2 look at each other kinda funny. I yell for them to just go to the basket, but before they could, the L blew his whistle and had the B defense come down to the proper side of the court.

Ya know, I thought they were good refs right up until that point. :p

You need to insult someone to make a point?
 

Dan,

I'm confused where in my orginial post I was rude or insulting to you in anyway. I simply stated what I felt and in return you become insulting and defensive. Did I strike a nerve with you Dan or are you always like this? As an educator I felt what you did is inappropriate and uncalled for. It is my opinion and your not open minded enough to hear a different opinion. I feel that is sad. I wonder what your response would be if a coach "shared a joke" with you about a call you kicked. Somehow I'm thinking that you would not be laughing, because how dare anyone question the mighty official. I feel it is people like you that give officials a bad name. There are great officials out there that realize the game is not about them at all, no one is there to see them and the best game they call is when no one in the gym notices them. If you read this I'm looking forward to your response, more insults I'm going to assume or derogatory comments about women? I must ask you what you would have done if when you made your "joke" the player told you to go to hell? Are you going to T him? Because you baited him with your "joke" As always looking forward to seeing you respond in a professional manner.

Re: You need to insult someone to make a point?
 

Hey coach, I promised you and myself that I would ignore you. I swear, I will after this.

Go f*ck yourself.

Nice language Dan
 

Dan,

I'm confused and concerned why you can not see someone else's point and are set on using expletives in your post. Why should anyone respect you when you handle yourself like this?

Re: You need to insult someone to make a point?
 

It's surprising that a message from an educator would have so many run-on sentences and misspelled words, and have such poor punctuation. Of course, that's just my opinion. I'm sure you'll be able to see someone else's point.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 10th, 2004 at 12:02 AM]

Why the insults?
 

When you behave like this, how can you question the way you are treated by coaches, players and fans. I was not looking for any trouble just giving my opinion and I have been verbally attacked from the beginning. Would someone please respectfully tell me what I did that was so insluting to this board? I'm sure there are some respectful officials out there. I do not mean to group all of you into the same group as Dan and Basketball Offical.

My apologies grammar is not my strong point, probably the reason I'm not an English teacher. But hmm I have a weakness and I'm man enough to admit it, wow that is a radical concept for this board.

Re: Why the insults?
 

You've posted about this situation over and over during the past 2 days. You've been a member here less than a week and you've posted 12 times. Half of those posts have been regarding Dan's post. You write an insulting post to Dan, yet you've done nothing wrong.

If that isn't looking for trouble, I don't know what is.

Many of us have been on this board for years. We have contact with each other outside this board. It's a community. This is an officiating discussion board, which means the majority of the posters are officials. There are many coaches here and we have a good repoire with them. They have our respect and we have theirs'. But who are you? We don't know you. You simply show up and start insulting a senior member of this board, one who was here when there weren't 20 of us. You're like the new guy that just moved into town and is already starting trouble. You're damn right people are going to fire back.

Yes, we have heated discussions and we even get ill with each other from time to time. I've had more heated discussions with Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. and J.Rutledge than I care to remember. But they've been here, they've offered tremendous amounts of information, knowledge and experience and I respect that. And, they didn't start insulting people and popping off the first week they were here. Everyone respects that.

So, you can put this behind you, start over, get to know people, earn a little respect, gain a little respect for others, or move on. It makes no difference to me. And I don't think it matters to anyone else either.

I am not Dan's biggest fan.
 

The way you are going about this is really silly. You have made an issue out of something you do not understand and will never understand. Because what Dan might have said to this player was in many of our eyes as rather funny. There are many out there that have fun when we are officiating. We can be sarcastic at times, we can be firm at times, and we can be just plain funny. Considering all the times we get insulted, our integrity questioned and personal comment thrown at us for how much hair we do not have on our heads, to how much we might weigh. And Dan makes a comment and does not curse the kid or call him names and you want him to apologize?

I do not always see eye to eye with Dan on many things, but if this is what you get upset over, I wonder what really makes you mad. Because Dan does not live around your or officiate your games. So really, get over it. If you did not like it, chalk it up as experience and move on. You have not earned the right to run your mouth towards anyone here. Especially the fact that you have not put in the time and effort in this board that many have. Tony is right one there. There are certain things that you cannot say and we will all just agree with you. Dan is one of the top posters here, and has been here for as long as I can remember. And that was much longer than the membership indicates. Just move on and find something else to get upset over, PLEASE!!!!

Peace

Rut & Tony....

http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmili.../xyxthumbs.gif

Awesome!

BballCoach....

http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/wave.gif

Don't let the door hit you....

Re: Why the insults?
 

Really? I just went back to read your first post in this thread. And it goes a little something. . . like this. . .

And now you say you weren't looking for trouble? What did you think this kind of post would generate? Lots of other refs saying, "Boy, that coach sure knows what he's talking about. Dan sucks. How do we get his license pulled? Good thing we have a coach around who knows so much about officiating"?

Seriously, you come to an official's forum, in fact "The Offical Forum" :) , and the first thing you post is a psychological analysis of a person you don't know the first thing about in a forum that deals with officiating, which you don't know the first thing about. What kind of response did you really expect?

So, I'm with Tony. You can either be "man enough" to admit another error, start over here by making posts that aim to learn more about officiating (which is our purpose here, for the most part), or you can get lost. I think I know which of these two options is more likely, but I'm willing to be surprised.