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ref18 Fri Jan 02, 2004 01:50am

I'm sure at one point or another in your officiating careers, you've used mechanics from another level of ball in a high school game. i know i have. Which do you think is the best mechanic for the NFHS to adopt?

JRutledge Fri Jan 02, 2004 01:52am

No stop clock signal for out of bounds plays. There is not need for it.

Peace

ref18 Fri Jan 02, 2004 01:58am

I agree with you 100% on that one, that's the mechanic i most frequently throw into my high school game. I hope this gets changed for the next officials manual.

BktBallRef Fri Jan 02, 2004 02:01am

Quote:

Originally posted by ref18
I agree with you 100% on that one, that's the mechanic i most frequently throw into my high school game. I hope this gets changed for the next officials manual.
Probably won't happen that fast. It'll change eventually, IMHO, but I don't think it'll be anytime soon.

ref18 Fri Jan 02, 2004 02:06am

That sucks. Just out of curiosity, when did the NCAA accept this mechanic??

BktBallRef Fri Jan 02, 2004 02:34am

I feel like Precision Time really brought about this change. Since the whistle stops the clock, there's really no need to raise the arm. I guess PT has been used universally in D1 for 5 or 6 years maybe.

Rich Fri Jan 02, 2004 03:01am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I feel like Precision Time really brought about this change. Since the whistle stops the clock, there's really no need to raise the arm. I guess PT has been used universally in D1 for 5 or 6 years maybe.
The whistle _ALWAYS_ stops the clock in any basketball game. I just don't understand why this signal is necessary on an OOB, violation, etc.

tomegun Fri Jan 02, 2004 07:02am

I agree with everything posted so far. I also think the college women's mechanics for inbounding the ball should be used. They count and chop with the same hand.
I think high school should go table side for 3 person games.

BK Fri Jan 02, 2004 07:37am

I have two...

First, I use the spread arms to signify that the defensive player is not close enough for me to count closley guarded.

Second, I think that HS needs the Lead covering "on ball" in the strong side corner. If he has responsibility for OOB outside the arch, but has a strong post matchup, he has to choose to leave one or the other...there is no way to officiate post players and see a kid step on the baseline outside the 3-pt line.

I'd have to try the tableside mechanic to see if I liked it or not.

tomegun Fri Jan 02, 2004 08:42am

Quote:

Originally posted by BK
Second, I think that HS needs the Lead covering "on ball" in the strong side corner. If he has responsibility for OOB outside the arch, but has a strong post matchup, he has to choose to leave one or the other...there is no way to officiate post players and see a kid step on the baseline outside the 3-pt line.

If you think about it, who can officiate the post play the best? Also, the leagues that use these mechanics don't really call off ball fouls (not many anyway). I think this is something we have to live with.

ChuckElias Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:19am

Quote:

Originally posted by BK
Second, I think that HS needs the Lead covering "on ball" in the strong side corner.
I assume you're talking about FED 3-whistle mechanics, right? B/c in 2-whistle, this is already the case.

Quote:

there is no way to officiate post players and see a kid step on the baseline outside the 3-pt line.
I simply disagree. Having worked exclusively 2-whistle for HS games (with one exception), I know from experience that statement is just not true. Could there be a better system than requiring the Lead to do both? Absolutely. But it can be done. Go wide, young man. . .

Rich Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:33am

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:

Originally posted by BK
Second, I think that HS needs the Lead covering "on ball" in the strong side corner.
I assume you're talking about FED 3-whistle mechanics, right? B/c in 2-whistle, this is already the case.

Quote:

there is no way to officiate post players and see a kid step on the baseline outside the 3-pt line.
I simply disagree. Having worked exclusively 2-whistle for HS games (with one exception), I know from experience that statement is just not true. Could there be a better system than requiring the Lead to do both? Absolutely. But it can be done. Go wide, young man. . .

And deep.

It's actually easier to get the foot then. And get more distance which opens up your angle on the actual play itself.

Mike Burns Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:48am

Chuck,
I agree that in 2-man we need to go wide and cover the area outside the 3-point line. When the ball moves to the corner I will usually go 3-5' off the endline and widen out to the 3-point line or just a step beyond so that I can look outside-in a little more.

The play that BK is suggesting has to do with the 3-man mechanics. I think in 3-man the mechanic becomes a little more difficult for L because the play would be out of L's primary, but isn't L is still responsible for the entire endline OOB? If so, then I can see BKs point. While L strong side, I'm concentrating on the post matchup because that is my primary. What happens when the player in the corner steps on the endline? As I understand the mechanic, L is not supposed to go that wide on 3-man.

(PC statement: The term "man" as used in this post is generic and is to refer to "mankind") ;)

tomegun Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:18am

For me, the first adjustment for a 2-person game after a 3-person game when I'm the lead is to move off of the endline.

ace Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:45pm

I agree witht he out of bounds... I dont always use it. If its not obvious that it went out of bands like his foot touched it or the ball hit the line or something then I'll put my hand in the air first.

I've been using the spread arms for closely guarded. I was using it before I realized it was an actual mechanic. "How come I'cant get my 5 sec count?" I just spread my arms out and BAM! everyone got it.... Amazing I say.

I like 2 man mechanics i think 30 sec timeouts should be at the circles (one on each side ) and 60 seconds at the top of the 3 pt arc or top of the key. Going down to the blocks is STUPID. Its like somone copied a 3-person manual and forgot to change that one section.

the whole hand point! I use two fingers when pointing... Its more like a point and not a navy signalman from WWII.

I like the NCAAs player control.(but I do use the fed signal) I use 75-85% of the prescribed Fed Mechanics(i'm trying to move up and you never know whos watching :-D - Besides i paid 150 bucks to goto camp to make my mechanics look good - might as well use 'em)... we dont always switch on fouls but definitly on shootfouls. But yeah - its the little things that I find make me feel more natural out on the court. I just hope we goto grey shirts soon... However I just got in my order of a new striped shirt :-/ I can still use it.

ref18 Fri Jan 02, 2004 02:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ace

I like the NCAAs player control.(but I do use the fed signal) I use 75-85% of the prescribed Fed Mechanics(i'm trying to move up and you never know whos watching :-D - Besides i paid 150 bucks to goto camp to make my mechanics look good - might as well use 'em)... we dont always switch on fouls but definitly on shootfouls. But yeah - its the little things that I find make me feel more natural out on the court. I just hope we goto grey shirts soon... However I just got in my order of a new striped shirt :-/ I can still use it.

When i've been evaluated, the evaluators always make a point of only using the perscribed mechanics for a certain level of ball. In my area, i don't think its possible to move up if not using proper mechanics.

IMHO, i think that the grey shirts are not a good idea. Stick with the stripes.

JRutledge Fri Jan 02, 2004 03:10pm

They have if you really think about it.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ref18


When i've been evaluated, the evaluators always make a point of only using the perscribed mechanics for a certain level of ball. In my area, i don't think its possible to move up if not using proper mechanics.


I have yet to meet and official that works with 100% NF Mechanics during HS games. I do not know a single official that did not use the "kick" mechanic before this year when they had the violation. I bet if you thought about it, not many of us ever birddogged during a PC Foul call. And most of those officials are doing much more important games than at least I have seen in my career.

Peace

Mark Dexter Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:07am

For 3-person, I like the NCAA women's mechanic (and I've seen it sneaking into men's occasionally) of the trail mirroring the lead's chopping in the clock.

ref18 Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:11am

I think the NCAA Womens officials have great mechanics in regards to starting the clock. I really like the chop with the same are you count with, and the trail mirroring the leads chop. They're great mechanics i hope to see moved into more levels of basketball.

JRutledge Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:28am

Lead does not chop.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ref18
I think the NCAA Womens officials have great mechanics in regards to starting the clock. I really like the chop with the same are you count with, and the trail mirroring the leads chop. They're great mechanics i hope to see moved into more levels of basketball.
The Women's mechanic is not a mirror of the chop by the Trail, the Trail is the only official that chops, if the ball is in the halfcourt set. And at the NCAA level, at least the D1 level, they use the Precision Time System. So the Lead does not need to chop. They are starting the clock on their hip. Actually, the same thing the NBA does.

Peace

BktBallRef Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:28am

Quote:

Originally posted by ace
I've been using the spread arms for closely guarded. I was using it before I realized it was an actual mechanic. "How come I'cant get my 5 sec count?" I just spread my arms out and BAM! everyone got it.... Amazing I say.
It's not a mechanic, at least not an NFHS mechanic. If you're trying to move up, you're better off staying away from NCAA mechanics, unless the people you work for tell you to use them. Experienced officials can get away with it. For officials who are trying to move up, it can be perceived as sloppy.

Quote:

I like 2 man mechanics i think 30 sec timeouts should be at the circles (one on each side ) and 60 seconds at the top of the 3 pt arc or top of the key. Going down to the blocks is STUPID. Its like somone copied a 3-person manual and forgot to change that one section.
No, it's not stupid. You go to the top of the key on 30 second time-outs because the cheerleaders are not allowed on the floor for a 30. You go to the blocks on 60 second time-outs because the cheerleaders are allowed on the floor.

BktBallRef Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:30am

Re: Lead does not chop.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:

Originally posted by ref18
I think the NCAA Womens officials have great mechanics in regards to starting the clock. I really like the chop with the same are you count with, and the trail mirroring the leads chop. They're great mechanics i hope to see moved into more levels of basketball.
The Women's mechanic is not a mirror of the chop by the Trail, the Trail is the only official that chops, if the ball is in the halfcourt set. And at the NCAA level, at least the D1 level, they use the Precision Time System. So the Lead does not need to chop. They are starting the clock on their hip. Actually, the same thing the NBA does.

NBA officials still chop, even though they use PT. As someone said, they count and chop with the same hand.

Rich Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:43am

Re: Lead does not chop.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:

Originally posted by ref18
I think the NCAA Womens officials have great mechanics in regards to starting the clock. I really like the chop with the same are you count with, and the trail mirroring the leads chop. They're great mechanics i hope to see moved into more levels of basketball.
The Women's mechanic is not a mirror of the chop by the Trail, the Trail is the only official that chops, if the ball is in the halfcourt set. And at the NCAA level, at least the D1 level, they use the Precision Time System. So the Lead does not need to chop. They are starting the clock on their hip. Actually, the same thing the NBA does.

Peace

The lead chops with the counting hand. Two finger count above the head with a chop down on the touch on court. Unless they changed it since I went to camp last summer.

JRutledge Sat Jan 03, 2004 01:00am

Re: Re: Lead does not chop.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


The lead chops with the counting hand. Two finger count above the head with a chop down on the touch on court. Unless they changed it since I went to camp last summer.

Accepted or actual CCA Mechanic? Because I have never seen a mechanic that allows the count and chop to be done that way. But I could be wrong, I am just saying there are things done because it is accepted by certain people, but not by the CCA Manual.

Peace

Rich Sat Jan 03, 2004 01:31am

I'll have to dig out my CCA Women's Manual, but it's in the basement as I have no need for it this season.


Camron Rust Sat Jan 03, 2004 06:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BK
I have two...

First, I use the spread arms to signify that the defensive player is not close enough for me to count closley guarded.

Second, I think that HS needs the Lead covering "on ball" in the strong side corner. If he has responsibility for OOB outside the arch, but has a strong post matchup, he has to choose to leave one or the other...there is no way to officiate post players and see a kid step on the baseline outside the 3-pt line.

When the ball is in lead's corner (2-man), the post becomes the trails responsibility. I expect my partner to cover the post.

Camron Rust Sat Jan 03, 2004 06:44pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Burns
Chuck,
I agree that in 2-man we need to go wide and cover the area outside the 3-point line. When the ball moves to the corner I will usually go 3-5' off the endline and widen out to the 3-point line or just a step beyond so that I can look outside-in a little more.

The play that BK is suggesting has to do with the 3-man mechanics. I think in 3-man the mechanic becomes a little more difficult for L because the play would be out of L's primary, but isn't L is still responsible for the entire endline OOB? If so, then I can see BKs point. While L strong side, I'm concentrating on the post matchup because that is my primary. What happens when the player in the corner steps on the endline? As I understand the mechanic, L is not supposed to go that wide on 3-man.

There are many times (both in 2-man and 3-man) when the ball comes from an area out of your primary and goes OOB on your line. This is no different.

You have to get a postion to cover both your lines and your primary.

davidw Sat Jan 03, 2004 07:10pm

Not necessarily my most wished for, but I think the following two changes would be better for us as officials:

1) Change the block signal from open hands on hip to closed fists. We see it improperly used by many at the high school level and below--I think because its appears stronger so many like to use it instead of the approved signal. I think it has a more authoritative look to it. I sometimes feel like I'm getting ready to bow or curtsy after using the current signal.:D

2) Change the illegal use of hands signal from the open faced hand to the closed fist chop on the other arm. See above--same reason.

How many of you remember the old travelling signal with open hands instead of the closed fists we have today?

[Edited by davidw on Jan 4th, 2004 at 10:22 PM]

Mike Burns Sat Jan 03, 2004 07:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
When the ball is in lead's corner (2-man), the post becomes the trails responsibility. I expect my partner to cover the post. [/B]
Good point! I'll have to remember to add this to my 2-man pregame.

bob jenkins Sun Jan 04, 2004 06:25pm

Re: Re: Re: Lead does not chop.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


The lead chops with the counting hand. Two finger count above the head with a chop down on the touch on court. Unless they changed it since I went to camp last summer.

Accepted or actual CCA Mechanic? Because I have never seen a mechanic that allows the count and chop to be done that way. But I could be wrong, I am just saying there are things done because it is accepted by certain people, but not by the CCA Manual.

Peace

It's the actual mechanic.


Mark Dexter Sun Jan 04, 2004 06:57pm

Re: Lead does not chop.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge

The Women's mechanic is not a mirror of the chop by the Trail, the Trail is the only official that chops, if the ball is in the halfcourt set. And at the NCAA level, at least the D1 level, they use the Precision Time System. So the Lead does not need to chop. They are starting the clock on their hip. Actually, the same thing the NBA does.

Peace


Take a closer look at the next women's game at which you're in attendance . . . .


Also, even though PT is recommended for all D-I schools, they sure as heck don't all have it!


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