Can the same officials work a state final game in your area (or state) an unlimited number of years in a row?
Meaning, if I work a final game in 2000, can I also work again in 2001, 2002, 2003 and so on.
Or is there a rotation process of some type?
Just curious.

In Texas you only get 3 finals games before your out. Never again... you can call up to the finals and everything else but can never work a finals game again.

that's interesting..
 

ace?
What if the best of the best have already called 3 finals? Couldn't that "quantity over quality" theory cheat the kids out of the best officials?

Rumor and the truth.
 

It was once rumored that in my state that an if an official went to State 3 times, they were done. No matter how many times in a row. But now the IHSA says they have said that you can go only two times in a row and have to take a year off. Then you could go another 2 times and take a year off again. And this could happen for years in theory. But they just announced that, so we will see.

Peace

Re: that's interesting..
 

I'm quite confident that most states have plenty of officials that are capable of officiating any level of state championship game.

Z

Re: Re: that's interesting..
 

Z
I'm not quite as confident as you.

What you say
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oatmealqueen

In the state I am in the tournament list is established by the vote of the coach's. Once you are on the list, the only way you will be replaced is if you die (quote the assignor/commissioner). As such, you could be assigned the finals for the rest of your life. Very political!

Re: Re: Re: that's interesting..
 

--------------
"Best" officials? How about qualified officials? "Best" is such a subjective term.

You're saying that in the entire state of Michigan there aren't enough 3-whistle crews so different ones work state finals every season? I can't imagine that.

I'm in Wisconsin -- 2 whistles, 4 classes (girls and boys). Means only 16 officials can work state finals every season. In my opinion, you should get one of these in a career. There are certainly enough quality officials in a state to rotate this around so that all that are qualified get a shot at the brass ring.

What incentive is there when an official looks at the list of state officials and sees the same names year after year?

Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Jan 1st, 2004 at 09:20 PM]

Chosen by the coaches, that can't be good. I know a few of coaches in my area don't know the first thing about officiating. I hope my participation in a major tournament is never determined by their votes.

In my area, the provincial tournament is held in a selected location. Half the officials are from the association in which the tournament is held, the other half come from various associations. If you keep getting sent to the tournament, i don't see why there'd be a limit on the amount of times you work the final.

Im not sure of all the details in Oregon, except that each association sends a certain number, and each association chooses who they send. Our association uses a formula that includes voting by the coaches and also by the membership of the association. I know that if you've worked a tournament two years in a row, from our association, you have to sit out a year. But then you are eligible to go back into the rotation. Once selected to work the tourney, a ref gets at least four games, possibly five. I'm not sure what the rules are about the championship game -- whether once you've done it once you're out forever, or not.

But actually this year, the whole tournament is going to be structured differently, so that there will be half as many games. I have no idea what that will do to the reffing situation.

In NC, we have Sectionals in all 4 classes, boys and girls, in which any class 1 or 2 official is classified to work.

Booking supervisors choose 3 crews to work in the Regionals, which are really the quarterfinal and semifinal round of the state tourney. The Regionals consist of the Regional Semifinal round and the Regional Championship round. You work 2 semis or you work 1 semi and 1 a Regional Championship. It can be 2 boys' games, 2 girls' games, or one game for each. One of the 3 crews from each association works the State Finals.

Until about three years ago, you could only go to the Regionals once every 3 years. But that was changed as sending 3 crews every year would force a supervisor to pick the 27th best official in his association every 3 years. That can be difficult in very small associations.

Last year, we worked a 4A and a 3A boys game at the Regionals. The other two crews in our association worked a quarterfinal and a Regional Championship, in the girls tourney. Then we worked the 1A Boys State Championship game. So, not only did we get the Finals, we also only worked Boys. Our Sectional Championship was also a 3A Bys game and was probably the best game of the 4. It was a blast!

Fortunately, I can go back in three years. Unfortunately, it won't happen that soon. It might be 10 years. :(

But it's a helluva ride and it's worth the wait! ;)

When I was in (state omitted), the association would "choose" their top 16 officials. EVERY NIGHT of the playoffs, they would start with #1 and work down until all the slots were filled. Every year, the same officials would be listed 1-16 for the most part and if you were below 16 you simply wouldn't get a single post-season game. Some officials would work multiple games in each round based on the scheduling.

Who does that serve, exactly, besides the people who somehow find their way at the top of the list? If you were a transfer official, you could be one of the best officials in the world and you wouldn't be able to crack that list for YEARS until people on the list stated retiring.

The Top 16 was heavy with college officials who would work VERY FEW HS games until the playoffs and people who would've done the sport a great favor by retiring 10 years earlier.

Rich

Re: Re: Re: Re: that's interesting..
 

Is not "qualified" subjective as well? Depending on what you consider the qualifications, that can eliminate people and put people on the list.

I would like to add, doing the State Finals in my state does not mean the Championship game. In basketball (and other sports), usually that means the Quarterfinals at least. There is not quarantee that an official will do the Championship game if they are going to "State" as an official. That means that the teams have at least 3 games to play if they are to win in all or play for 3rd place. An official I think is only guaranteed one game (to my the best of my knowledge). The Championship weekend is held for each class and gender at one time. So if someone does the Class AA State Finals, they will work on Friday. And if they do well, they can get the Semi-Finals and Championship game (or even 3rd place game) on Saturday. So when you are considered a State Final official, that means you go to Peoria for the Boy's and Bloomington for the Girls. But how many games you do, is up to the folks that make those decisions. And doing one of those games is considered a trip. So it is very possible that you are a State Final official and never do the Final game.

Peace

I knew I was heading down a slippery slope with that, Jeff.

I guess what I should've said was "same." The officials shouldn't be the "same."

It takes work identifying a different set of officials every season. It's EASIER to use the same officials year in and year out. Some places take the easy way out.

Regardless of whether those officials in IL work a final, they get the finals patch to keep and wear (if they choose), right? Well, everyone who stays with officiating and does a good job should get the shot at working that in a career. Every time someone goes back for a (more than one) time, it reduces the number of people getting that opportunity by one.

I'd do it once and be more than happy to let someone else get the shot moving forward, if that was the policy.

Yes that is true. They are a State Final officials, but I think football is the only sport that you will do the Championship game if you go to "State." All it really means is that you were assigned the last stage of the playoffs. Who does the actual games and what games is another story.

Well in Illinois and I am sure in other states, you can turn down the opportunity to work it if you like. I personally think the guys that have earned it deserve to go and should go again if they have not regressed as an official. No one team goes to the Super Bowl every year, niether should the same officials do the Championship ever year either. But if you are good and have worked hard, I see nothing wrong with having multiple trips. Just not every year like you described in your other post.

Peace

An official in the U.P. of Michigan, it is said, will, at most, work only one final per sport in a lifetime.
mick

I agree, Jeff. But before assigning a returning official, I would hope the assigning body would seek out and try to find someone who hasn't yet had that honor.

There are a lot of big games up to the state tournament/finals, so even officials who have made it to the top will still get pretty close in the future provided they still are able to perform at a high level.

Rich

OQ - I dont write the rules I just know that is them. in the entire Texas Assocaiaton of Sports Officials we have 16-20 regions/chapters. that it is broken down into. The houston chapter alone has 700+ officials followed by dallas, san ant. and then lubbock. So they're are PLENTY of officials to choose from in the state for the finals. How they get picked I do not know. All I know is one chapter in the state has lost its right to ANY post-season assignments because they broke away from TASO. So that'll change things because a few of the finals officials came from that chapter last year from what I heard. Could be wrong though but I do know for a fact that chapter has lost its post-season officating rights. Officials for games that would normally fall under that chapter will have to be pulled from surrounding chapters per the governing body (UIL)

The UP of Michigan gets the shaft during tournament selection each year. IMHO

Re: Re: Re: Re: that's interesting..
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

You're saying that in the entire state of Michigan there aren't enough 3-whistle crews so different ones work state finals every season? I can't imagine that.


I'm not saying that.


I'm in Wisconsin -- 2 whistles, 4 classes (girls and boys). Means only 16 officials can work state finals every season. In my opinion, you should get one of these in a career. There are certainly enough quality officials in a state to rotate this around so that all that are qualified get a shot at the brass ring.


In Michigan -- 3 whistle for all games -- 24 officials total boys/girls with a few alternates thrown in.
I'm not sure that everyone should be included based on longevity. There must be some other standards that one must meet other than years of service, in my humble opinion.

Re: Re: Re: that's interesting..
 

Why not? I went to state last year and will go again this year. Then I sit out the following year. Not only are there many officials in my state just as capable as me, there are many officials in my local association who are capable of working any state championship game. IMHO, depth and "spreading the wealth" are a good thing.

Even if the selection system was perfect (which it never will be), I see only good coming from rotation.

Z

What you say
 

When I was in (state omitted), the association would "choose" their top 16 officials. EVERY NIGHT of the playoffs, they would start with #1 and work down until all the slots were filled. Every year, the same officials would be listed 1-16 for the most part and if you were below 16 you simply wouldn't get a single post-season game. Some officials would work multiple games in each round based on the scheduling.

Who does that serve, exactly, besides the people who somehow find their way at the top of the list? If you were a transfer official, you could be one of the best officials in the world and you wouldn't be able to crack that list for YEARS until people on the list stated retiring.

The Top 16 was heavy with college officials who would work VERY FEW HS games until the playoffs and people who would've done the sport a great favor by retiring 10 years earlier.

Rich [/B][/QUOTE]

This sounds all too familiar to my state which brings up another one of my concerns. My state uses 2-man mechanics during the regular season and in the post season they use 3-man mechanics. What a joke! (It is a absolutely a nightmare working with someone who is not familiar with 3-man mechanics in that type of game.) In addition to this, my association will not assign a full schedule of varsity games to new members until they have worked between 13 to 15 years in their association thereby limiting the number of officials that would be qualified to move into the post season. And, if for some reason (let's say you move, our boards require that you live in the towns they serve) you transfer from another board, you lose all seniority and are assigned to all lower level games in that area. Of course, if you know someone, all of the rules change. I've seen a tremendous loss of talented officials because of these tactics and have worked with a number of officials who, as you say, who would have done the sport a great favor by retiring 10 years earlier.

Re: Re: Re: Re: that's interesting..
 

I don't agree with this at all. Some people care about the welfare of the game more than others and it wouldn't be fair to let someone have a final just because the should get one in their career.

Not everyone who is capable of working a final will get one. But the state should identify new people every season who are capable of doing the job.

Even in the smallest states there should be enough quality officials to spread the wealth. Allowing the same officials to come back year after year allows states to be lazy (not have to really work to identify people every season) and allows politics to dictate the assignments more than it already does.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Quote:

An official in the U.P. of Michigan, it is said, will, at most, work only one final per sport in a lifetime. mick

What that means is that some good officials get the shaft and some not-so-good ones get a break. For some reason, the UP has a separate officials selection process than the rest of the state. Once a Yooper goes to the finals, that's it. In the rest of the state, you're eligible again after a couple of years off.

Of the 12 officials in each of the boys and girls tournaments, the UP gets one official, as do 5 other zones established by the state association. Three zones (metro Detroit, Flint/Saginaw, and Lansing/Grand Rapids) get 2 officials. From the Detroit area, there are a few officials who've done 2 finals, and I'm only aware of 1 who has done 3. From some of the other zones, it seems like there's a rotation of 3 or 4 officials who go regularly.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stan-MI

Quote:

Originally posted by mick Quote: An official in the U.P. of Michigan, it is said, will, at most, work only one final per sport in a lifetime. mick What that means is that some good officials get the shaft and some not-so-good ones get a break. For some reason, the UP has a separate officials selection process than the rest of the state. Once a Yooper goes to the finals, that's it. In the rest of the state, you're eligible again after a couple of years off. Of the 12 officials in each of the boys and girls tournaments, the UP gets one official, as do 5 other zones established by the state association. Three zones (metro Detroit, Flint/Saginaw, and Lansing/Grand Rapids) get 2 officials. From the Detroit area, there are a few officials who've done 2 finals, and I'm only aware of 1 who has done 3. From some of the other zones, it seems like there's a rotation of 3 or 4 officials who go regularly.

The reason for this, of course, is that some of us in the U.P. are not very good.

I believe <I>we</I> are in the company of an official that is good enough to have worked at least 5 championship final games, boys or girls. ;)
mick

OMQ, I think you did a Boys' Final involving a neighboring town of mine(Ishpeming)about 10 years ago. How many Girls' finals have you done?

Not bragging here.. just answering..
 

Have been fortunate to work 4 girls, and one boy's final between the UP's own Ishpeming vs Lakeview.

I've got them all fooled.

The reason for this, of course, is that some of us in the U.P. are not very good. [/B][/QUOTE]


mick,
Not true!!!! Based on working with bunches of yoopers.

Interesting..
 

I find it really interesting reading about the different ways the playoffs are held in various states.
Do officials ever work more than one game per day during the tournament?

Yes.

Re: Interesting..
 

It is not possible. The State assigns one game and one game a night only for a crew. Unless you have been assigned to the State Finals. The Saturday night (last night), some officials might do a Semifinal that afternoon and a Final or 3rd place game, later that night.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Jan 2nd, 2004 at 08:43 PM]

Re: Interesting..
 

Not in Oregon. We have several rounds of play-offs first, and those are all played after school, only one round per day, assigned as any other game by the local association. At the tournament proper, refs only work one game per day.

And there are some U.P. there who are pretty darn good. ;)

Re: Interesting..
 

Getting into this discussion kinda late, but...

Washington State has 5 classifications:
4A, 3A, 2A, A and B with 4A being the larger schools. (BTW, these are two whistle games at state, both boys and girs)

Our Association of about 80 officials usually sends 4 officials to the State Tournaments. Last year we had one official to each classification: excluding the 3A State Tournament.

16 officials are sent to each tournament in WA state. Many associations through out the state are represented at each tournament. The larger Associations (Seattle) may have 3 officials at each tournament.

It is very competitive at the tournament. An official is quaranteed 2 games...one Wednesday and one Thursday. The "ratings" come out Thursday night from the observers. Tournament officials patiently wait, as the observers tally their scores, to see if they get to continue the Tournament on Friday and/or Saturday. All 16 officials are ranked 1 through 16 by the observers. 8 officials "go home" after their second game.(8-16) 8 officials get to continue officiating in the tournament. (1-8)

Officials (1-4) get to do the "semis" and (1-2) get to do the championship game...with #3 the alternate.

We used to let the top 4 officials in our association go every year, if they wanted...but, now we voted to only allow an official to go 2 years in a row...then sitting out one year...and then eligible for another two years straight.

This gets a few more officials the oportunity to experience this great honor of officiating a state tournament. I for one think there is a fine line between a #4 official and a #6 official...so why not give #6 a shot? We had an official rated #5 for years that had to sit and watch the same 4 guys go every year...unless one of the guys wanted to give up his spot...now it is required to give it up, at least after 2 years straight.

RD

I'll tell you my primary beef about how the officials are chosen for state in our association. All the officials are thrown into one pot, and voted on by everyone. This means that if a ref only does girls games, as all the women do in our association, only half the coaches see them, and they never get enough votes to make the top of the list. Also, since we put women together as much as possible to give the girls as many women refs as possible, not nearly as many men refs have seen the women refs as partners, so the ref part of the vote heavily favors the men also.

So although we have several very capable women refs with years of experience, and lots of college and very high level HS experience, we have only two women who ever go to state, and then only two years on, and a year off, like everyone else. And neither has ever done the final. Yet a couple of years ago, I heard some of the refs from our association at state talking about how they never do girls games, and feel so out of their rhythm doing these games.

Women in our association get discouraged and quit, because there is not an avenue for advancement to state. It can't happen, so why bother?

The frustrating part is that the fix is so simple: Add a requirement that a ref must do x number of girls' varsity games to go to the girls' tournament, and make x a reasonable number such as 10 or 12. This would also spread the tourney eligibility out a little more among the men, and would get refs to the state tourney that know and appreciate the girls' game.

Okay, I'll climb down off my soap box now, and shut up.

Michigan has that requirement ... <font color = white> <B> <I>written </font></B></I>.

So.....

what makes it not work, as I think you're implying?

... A lack of enforcement of the 10 required girl's varsity games.

Although, in many cases, the working "unqualified" officials are "quality officials", the message sent by the State of Michigan is that the written rule is not important. It hurts and confuses a young official.

My recommendation: Make the rule go away, ... or enforce it.
mick

Yes, I see. I would be for making the rule at the local association level, and we would know who met the requirements and who didn't, just from looking at schedules and things. Women in our group who could make the cut if the positions weren't taken by otherwise-qualified men, would be able to look at records and require enforcement.

Mick,
Do you think that the lack of numbers, sometimes, causes the required number of games provision, to get thrown out the window?
It has in our area at times.
Just for the girl's basketball tournament over 700 officials indicated their availability, and a little over 650 were placed in the tournament (Districts, Regionals, QF's, SF's, and Finals).
Now if 100 turn them back in, 50 have a conflict, we now have a problem with numbers.
The selection process could use some help, IMO, but I'm not sure what the answer is.

Juulie,
Can someone work the girl's or boy's Tournament or Championship game without doing a single game during the season? More specifically, could an official who has not done one single girl's game work their tournament?
Also, are there women who work the boy's tournament?
thanks in advance

Why do you put women refs together for girls games? Why DON'T women refs work both sides so they can be seen by ALL the coaches?

There are only a few women refs in my neck of the woods, but the ones I know work varsity on BOTH sides.

What if the most qualified officials in the area are the ones working mostly boys games?

Just questions off the top of my head....off to work games 4 and 5 of the day.

oatmealqueen,
Of course. I understand that can exacerbate the problem.
But, as you know there are multiple discrepancies, not just number of games, not just lack of numbers in this area and in the area of MMOA, both under the <U>presumed</U> auspices of the MHSAA, the "largest sports officials organization of it's kind in the United States".
The largest ??!!!? Maybe it's too big to be effective.

mick

U.P. ---> one girls sub-varsity game = one regional final assignment. :)

Mick, I feel like launching a 3 page diatribe on the politics of selection (U.P. wise), but I just remembered it's my New Year's resolution!

[Edited by zebra44 on Jan 3rd, 2004 at 02:37 PM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
[B]Why do you put women refs together for girls games? Why DON'T women refs work both sides so they can be seen by ALL the coaches?



In Michigan, I have only worked 1 time with another woman in a tournament game (boy's and girl's) in 21 years.
That's not to say that there are no women. They tend to spread us around (ooh, that doesn't sound good) and place us with male officials.
I like it that way, and as you say, more people get to see us.
I do believe that ALL athletes should see strong women role models (as well as men) officiating, and Michigan has always been very progressive in tournament placement.
Juulie seems to be a strong advocate, and most likely a great role model; I'll bet that she can encourage a change for the better in her state.

I know.. it does happen.

Yeah, zebra44,
You keep that resolution !
You have many more years left than I.
(Pretty cold for fishin' today; I bet that shanty kept movin' away from the hole with that 43 mph wind.)
mick

This is not really a fair depiction. With over 350 officials in the association (or over 200 regular members), it would take well over 10 years to work with every one in the association...by which time the membership would have changed drastically. After 10 years here, I've not worked with dozens of officials (not counting recently joining members).

Further, it would take a similar number years to work all of the schools for both boys and girls...by which time the coaches will have mostly changed. After 10 years here, I've not been to over 1/2 the schools.

BTW, it is not true that women only get girls games. Those that are qualified get boys games, even 4A.

The person with the fewest official's votes to work the tourney last year had just 18 officials voting for him (under 10% of vote eligible officals).

The person with the fewest coach's votes to work the tourney last year had just 8 coaches voting for him. (about 5% of vote eligible coaches).

That is approximately on par with percentages of women and men in the association. A lot of those guys that make state have been doing this for 20+ years. They paid their dues and stuck around and built their reputation until it was their turn. How many women have been around for 20+ years...none.

Heck, it's not possible for 10 times as many men but they're not quitting. I'll probably never make state but that doesn't make me quit. I was told when I started that it takes an average of 10 years just to get a 4A boys varsity game (experienced transfers can get them after 1/2 a season after being observed). A few get one in 5-6 years, some never. The fact is that no one moves up and knocks someone out of a game unless they are BETTER than the other official...not just equal. This should apply to both men and women.

If the goal is to get more women official into the playoffs that is wrong. The goal should be to get the best officials into the playoffs.

The girls games deserves to be treated the <em>same</em> as do women official...not <em>seperate but equal</em>. The only fair way is to put everyone in the same pot for votes.

However, I'm not opposed to having officials work a minumum number of games in girls/boys to work the playoffs. However, the reason would not be for spreading around the tourney but for the teams to get officials who're familiar with the style of the game.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jan 3rd, 2004 at 05:52 PM]

"Familiar with the style of the game" is definitely the point. The girls' game and the boys' game are very different. There are several women who are highly qualified who won't get positions, even though they are quite comfortable with the girls' game, because they've not been seen by enough coaches to get the number of votes they need to make it into the "top 16." And every year, several male refs make it to the girls' tourneys even though they haven't done any girls' games in however many years.

I know I'm not completely familiar with all the ins and outs of our system, and I do think it is much better than many other associations', but this one issue needs addressing. It's not fair that with all the talent and ability our association represents, we can't come up with a more equitable system both for the players, and for the refs.

I'm not worried about my own future -- I'm nowhere near ready for state yet, and when the time comes, I can play politics as well as the next person. I'm just seeing that women really don't have the same chances in our association, and the choice isn't only based on ability and experience.

To answer some other questions about Oregon, yes there are a very few varsity boys games every year that use women refs. I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I do know they are not in proportion to the number of women refs who are able and qualified to work those games. Women would be allowed to work the boys' tourneys on paper, but I don't think any ever have. And Barb, theoretically, a ref could work only boys all season and still work the final of the girls' tourney. I don't know if that has ever happened, but it's possible.

Camron -- I'd be shocked if you didn't make state in the next few years. And that's NOT apple-polishing.