White couldn't have lost this game if they'd have walked off the court at the end of the third quarter.

Middle of second quarter, green gets a break, passes the ball downcourt to player all alone who bobbles the ball a couple of times, dribbles once and actually made a lay-up. I called nothing. White fans and coach go crazy wanting a travel. I said, "Coach, she didn't have control of the ball." He says, "I know she didn't have control, but it's still a travel." Sheez...

P.S. Brilliant dad in stands yells, "What rule book are you using anyway?"

Had a coach last night just crack me up! His girls were getting beat by 30 in the 3rd quarter and he says, "Sheila, DO NOT GIVE UP YOUR SPOT! We have got to have road blocks and tire spikes to stop these girls!"

I went past him still laughing, and said, "I can honestly say that I've never heard the term "tire spikes" in a basketball game!"

rainmaker...have had similar bs from the stands lately...last time during a to, the 'loud fan' was down beside my lower block area. i turned to him and asked which one was his son...he said "number 34". i instantly called 2 fouls on 34, and slyly pointed to his dad in the stands. he was quiet the rest of the game.

this shouldn't happen...but sometimes we have to abuse the whistle...

That's just flat out wrong.

Mregor

Ouch jr...Not good.

So Dad made you mad,so what.Did you ever think what Dad's
behavior does to his kid? I've had players near tears because of their parent's behavior,so you suggest that,"Sometimes we have to abuse the whistle," and take it out on the player that is probably as mad at their dad as you are.

You either ignore it or get game management to remove the fan,but you NEVER make up stuff to get even.If you do think
that it is okay,you should not be officiating.

You're kidding, right?

If not, you should hang up the whistle. Permanently.

Too bad that you feel that inadequate about you officiating that you use your whistle to retaliate against fans. I would be asshamed to even suggest this be done let alone brag about it. And sometimes I wonder why the fans always think I am out to get their team. Now I realize they just had you the night before.

WOW, there's an official destined for underclass games, if he/she is lucky.

I agree, this is an awful abuse of the whistle. And no, we never "have to abuse the whistle." Your little power trip hurts the reputation of all who wear the stripes, and it degrades all of us as well. The only redeeming part is that Dad now knows how vindictive you are, and I hope he reported your a$$ to the league, assignor, or whomever is appropriate.
You need to drop your ego off in your car and remember your pride isn't bigger than the game.

don't know the whole story
 

Don't know the entire story but perhaps we have misunderstood jr's post.

I know I've had coaches/fans screaming and hollering for a particular call... there has been a time or two when I made the call they were requesting... in the other team's favor.

Coach incessantly yelling for 3-seconds... again, and again, and again... okay coach I'll give you a 3-second call. Wanna set down and coach your kids yet? ... and let me officiate?

jr didn't say he made up the calls - only that he made them... (I imagine the use of the word "instantly" wasn't quite so instantaneous in reality... you can't call two fouls on someone during a timeout. I suspect that Dad was wanting a particular call that both teams were committing and so jr likely called what Dad asked for...

Don't know, but perhaps as a whole we are being a little harsh on jr.

If that's the case, one foul would have sufficed. Also, I doubt he would have so cavalierly used the phrase "abuse the whistle." I could be wrong, and his post is surely incomplete with regard to the situation as it really transpired, but it doesn't look good.

Re: don't know the whole story
 

If anything we are not being harsh enough!There is nothing
in his post that has any redeeming quality.I don't see how
you can read anything into it that suggests that it was not
getting even with Dad by calling stuff against his kid on purpose.When you use,"Instantly,slyly,and abuse of your whistle," in a post you are asking to get heat.

We have all had the,"Be careful what you ask for coach,"
situations,but that is a long way from intentionally calling 2 fouls because the kid's dad pissed you off,just to one up the loud mouth.

It is an abuse of power,it is unprofessional,it makes ALL officials look bad,and even if it was not all of those things,it is stupid because it punishes an innocent kid because their dad is a jerk.

wow..i didn't think the post would get this much heat...

i would do it again, when the situation warranted...

i am an experienced official. i would not just MAKE UP a call, but if the call needed to be made, and i could stick it to the fan and the player, i would do it in a heartbeat...

Childish and poor man-management skills. I can see that you sure are proud about it.

Just wait til that father finds you and feeds you that whistle you abuse. Love to be there and see that. I personally believe we are getting paid to do a job and be professional about it. We are not in grade school any more. Grow up! Can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

Given that the advice on this forum is contrary to your act, one would wonder how you would react to a suggestion on the floor from a partner.
mick
<HR>
Get in. Get done. Get out.


[Edited by mick on Dec 31st, 2003 at 08:24 AM]

Stick it to the fan? Why would you even care he existed?

What did the PLAYER do, besides being the FAN'S KID?

Your followup post was worse than your original.

Steve -- I agree completely that jr is completely out of line with his attitude. I don't think abetting retaliation -- especially physical abuse -- is very professional, either. I hope you are not serious about YOUR attitude, but thought you were making a joke, however un-funny.

Why do you officiate?

You do realize that the game is NOT about you,don't you?

If you are doing a youth or school game,you are there to set an example.You are there to see that both teams and ALL
players have a fair and equal chance to compete.You are there to insure that players are safe.You are there to teach the rules and encourage sportsmanship.

You are not there to stick it to a player or a fan.

Blindzebra,

Don't get so bent out of shape, I think he is trying to pull your string.

Rainmaker,

Are you a psychiatrist? You seem to be able to judge everyone here by there personalities and attitudes.

PS

Don't forget you said about me. That I have a
Dry, Dry, very dry sense of humor.

[/B]

Steve -- I agree completely that jr is completely out of line with his attitude. I don't think abetting retaliation -- especially physical abuse -- is very professional, either. I hope you are not serious about YOUR attitude, but thought you were making a joke, however un-funny. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes it was said jokingly and guess I should have maybe added a wink.

Steve,

Please use Icons when posting. Some of the guys/gals here have sensitive ego's and feelings, and you do not want to upset them.

This is just a tid-bit of info for you, since you may not know alot of the people here. You will understand more about who the above mentioned one's are once you read and reply to more posts.

This is a good place to learn, and you will figure out which one's to ingnore.

Basketball is a wonderful game.

One of the entitlements of fans is something very unique to the game - referee critiquing.

Our role in this matter is to officiate the game – but let it, players, interested parties, coach’s, fans and opponents participate.

Participation means critiquing. Like it or not.

off topic
 

RE: Fishing in Illinois

SteveF,
You ever run into the Starved Rock Bass Club?
mick

Re: off topic
 

Do alot of fishing and belong to B.A.S.S. but not associated with a club at all. Also run a fishing ministry at my local church?

Once did a jr. high game during x-mas break,the dad of a player continued to yell out "that was a bad call ref". After hearing this for three quarters and during an out of bounds dead ball I raised my hand to announce an officials time out. I then turned to the dad (who reminded me, at this point in his life) that how much of an a$$ one can be, so I asked him now that he has the entire gyms attention and my entire attention why the last call was a "bad call" and to explain it to his wife ,his son, myself, and the fans. His wife punched him in the arm and he NEVER SAID ANOTHER WORD!!

TPS

Great call, was the father able to explian the rules to you?

you kidding! The wife( who really wears the pants in the family) wouldnt let the pour boy say a word!

Clay -- I'm not a psychiatrist; and I'm not overly-sensitive, until I feel threatened. When I read in the R*** Mag*** ( don't want any copyright problems) that a ref was beat up, or killed because he and a fan got into a shouting match, and then I read that a referee might abet this kind of activity against another referee, yeah, I get a little touchy. Oh, wait, unless it's a joke. Lookin' back, can't tell for sure so BEFORE I LOSE MY COOL, that's before, not after, I check it out. Joke or not? I'm not really judging anyone's attitude, just asking for more information. See?

I'm not sure what reaction you expected. I have a couple of questions to clarify this. Did you make a call that you wouldn't otherwise have made? Example, #34 made some contact that you normally judge incidental but this time called just to show Dad who's boss? Slightly different than making up a call, but only slightly. Secondly, did Dad see you "slyly pointing" at him? If so, now he has the (understandable) impression that you made something up to stick it to him.
Really, I see this as a bush league official on a power trip.

I still don't see how it benefits anyone to talk to fans, especially if you draw attention to yourself and the fan. What if the fan who had been complaining about a bad call responded with some sort of demeaning remark when you questioned him about it? What do you do then? You either let the abuse get more personal or you've just baited the fan into an ejection. Worse, you could get yourself into a confrontation later in the game. In all cases, the only benefit is the reduction of a minor annoyance ("that was a bad call" is hardly abusive), but the cost of escalation is much greater and the focus is taken away from the players and put on you and a fan. Some officials can pull this off, but most should just ignore the fan and act professionally. Most of the time they're paying to be there while you're getting paid.

If I have any problems with fans or anyone (espcially fans) that get on my nerves I simply goto the table ask for security and point in the general vecinity... I say dont take any action now but just so you know incase it becomes more of a problem. If this doesnt shut them up I'll usually then ask for security wait and show them the general area that the fan is in. This usually takes care of the problem... NOW If he keeps going then the security guard who is now ready at moments notice will kindly show him the door.

The TWO occasions where I have talked to fans have been this season in a 7th grade girls toruny. Parent had something to say on just about every call. Finally there was an out of bounds play right in front of him... I asked him if he'd be interested in becoming an official because the assc. starts taking applications in august but there were some camps he could go to over the summer to get a head start. He shut up. (I dont think i sounded too sarcastic because he was right about one of the no- calls that I didnt call because no one lost or gained anything by it)And that was the end of it.

8th Grade Boys game...
Some kids sitting near the baseline in the stands said something to me that didnt need to be said. I simply just looked at them said do i need to go get the coach or ap? they shut up.... later on in the game... same sit... hey guys... do i need to grab that security guard or do yall just have the sudden ugency to hop on your bikes and go home? one friend looked at the other who looked like he had just crapped in his pants and said... hey man i'm ready to go home how bout you? I smiled and say thanks guys. And they just got up and left.

Other than that I try and enter and exit on the same side as the benches and get stay the crap away from fans.

Let us not all get so high and righteous.
 

We are human beings. We are all not going to act in the best ways when certain comments are made, whether it be by fans or coaches and players. We can only hope that we keep our cool. But when certain situations come up, certain measures are sometimes used to "make a point." I personally would not do what JR did, but I understand why he did it. Because if the fan is stupid enough to tell the official which kid is his on the floor, then he deserved to get picked on. That is why fans should just shut up and mind their own business and watch the game. And whether JR purposely called fouls on a kid or not, they still think we are out to get them, no matter what we do. I have done tournaments where neither team I was working was the host of the tournament and neither team I had ever worked in the past or even knew anyone from the communities, but they still think I was out to get them. Fans always think they are getting the short end of the stick, even when they got most of the fouls calls or most of the close calls. I know this, I bet that fan will think the next time he opens his mouth. Because when fans run their mouths, they do not think someone will call them on it. When they do they get the message.

At least from my experience, I treat fans very different from the Saturday morning JV games or AAU leagues or summer league ball, then I do at a varsity game or a college game. And I have confronted fans during AAU or JH games during the summer if the reason for the kids to play is to get experience. So everyone has to find their way and their own way to deal with fans. Because in many cases, you cannot run from them if you wanted to. So if you can find a way to make a point, do it. There are not always game management around to handle people that get out of hand.

I can remember a situation that happen with a very good officials that happens to be an assignor during the summer. This was an AAU tournament and it was on the campus of Illinois State University. A fan was riding the officials all game long, which was on of 3 courts playing at the same time in that particular gym (where were more in another part of the building). One of the teams called a timeout and this official was standing right next to this fan (there were no bleachers, just fans along the walls sitting in lawn chairs). He turned around and took his whistle off his next with the lanyard and put it on this finger and stuck it out to the fan like to say, "here go do it yourself." The officials did not speak, but held the lanyard with the whistle on his finger, waving it back and forth slightly. The fan was shocked that the official even responded to him and was a lost for words. The fan tried to speak, but he realized that everyone was looking at him. The timeout ended and the official put the whistle back around his neck and went on and officiated the game like nothing happen. You did not hear that fan again for 3 games on that court. The officials watching fell out laughing and talked about it the rest of the day. It was one of the funniest things I have ever seen in my officiating career and accomplished exactly what it was intended to do.

Ya'll have a great Holiday and Happy New Year. ;)

Peace

Re: Let us not all get so high and righteous.
 

I disagree.By doing what JR did you are compounding the problem,not making a point.

We will never win over fans,so what is the point of making a point,unless it is to make us feel better.Ignore them and if they go too far,let game management MAKE THE POINT.

When I work youth games I will talk with the fans,let them know we are human,if I become a person and not a striped shirt,it is harder for them to be harsh.I've explained rules and had a lot of positive feed-back from the parents.

It was funny before, why not now?
 

Compounding what problem? The fans are going to ride you no matter what. They are going to say things no matter what. So saying nothing does not make it better and saying something in my opinion does not make it worse. But I have known officials that have made comments to fans in specific situations and it was really funny to me and others. My thing is you have to pick your spots. And summer basketball is a little more informal than a Friday night game in December. And depending on the level of this game, I am not going to get all up in arms over what JR did. Because this might have been a local rec. league for I know.

But I do know this, there was an individual that would tell stories about an individual that did the same exact thing and everyone here thought that was knee slapping funny. Now we are all outraged over the same antics that might be a bit more of the truth involved? Come on now.

Peace

Re: It was funny before, why not now?
 

There is a difference between saying something and choosing to make calls against a kid to stick it to their
dad.

That sort of thing gives fans a reason to hate refs,and in that situation it is warranted,so yes it can compound the problem.

Another thing,we are taught to not let the crowd influence
are calls.No official wants to be known as a "homer offical",yet you are saying it is okay to let the negative behavior of a fan cause you to make calls you would have not made otherwise.

Do not put words in my mouth.
 

Yeah, but is this much different than what has been joked about on this discussion board before?

Fans are going to hate refs regardless of what you say and do not say. Not sure how that is ever going to change, when fans are coming from a bias and uniformed place.

They are going to call you a homer anyway. The fans only love you when they think you are helping out their team. I have had fans imply that I should help out their team, and we have not even started the game yet. Fans will joke that you take sides and this is when the conversations are civil.

Do not put words in my mouth. I did not say it was OK to do anything. But I find it extreamely hypocritical of many here that laughed time and time over stories of another officials doing all sorts of unprofessional things and we thought that was funny. But when an official does one of these things, now it is unprofessional and the guy should stop officiating. Why is one OK and is funny? And this case is a travesty? And the stories about the "individual" that was discribed of doing these things, no one hardly says a word about that. Folks here could not get enough of the stories of an officials telling off fans, coaches and players on a regular basis here and on the McGriff site, but now we are outraged. :confused:

I have been to the Big Ten Tournament for the last 4 years and will be going this year in Indianapolis. That is a much bigger stage than most of us will ever experience in our career and the guys in the cheap seats, swares his team is getting screwed by Ed Hightower. Obviously, Hightower is not even in a position to even address a fan in any way, but they still say very personal things to them. I over heard an Iowa fan say, "Hightower just does not like us, he always screws our team." BTW, this was two years ago and Iowa won the Big Ten Tournament by 30 points in the Championship game. But Hightower had it out for Iowa? If that is how they feel about a high profiled officials, what do you think the Dad thinks about officials and no one says a thing to him?

Like John Stassel(sp?) from ABC says, "Give me a break!!"

Peace

Just MHO, of course, but I think this is irrelevant. The fact that some moron pays $4 in no way gives him the right to make personal, degrading comments to officials or otherwise to display unsportsmanlike behavior.

Re: Do not put words in my mouth.
 

Jeff,I have not been on this forum that long,so I'm not being a hypoctrite.

There is a huge difference between picking your spot and talking to a fan and talking to one,then intentionally calling 2 fouls "instantly" on their kid,then "slyly pointing" at the fan just to "stick it to him" by "abusing
your whistle!"

Re: Re: Do not put words in my mouth.
 

Blindzebra,

I am not talking about you personally. I am talking about the overall reaction to what JR did. I have been on this board for over 6 years. So what I speak, you might not be aware of.

BZ,

This is not the end of the world. This is not the worst thing in the world as well. I do not advocate what was done, but I also do not look at it as a tragedy or something to get overly excited about. If the fan did not want anyone to "stick something to him," then act like an adult and do not be stupid enough to let it be known that who your kid is. And I did not read that he just called phantom fouls on the kid either. He might have not given him the "benefit of the doubt," that many of us give a kid under normal circumstances. I know at least for me, when a kid is a problem, by his own actions and complains alot, I know I will not bend over backwards to not call fouls on him. I might call fouls that I might have passed on, because that is a better way to "send a message" than just T'ing the kid up. But usually I never have to do that, because I have no problem of stoping a game and addressing any situation that is a problem in my games during dead ball periods. And usually the FT Administration is a great way to do that. But that is me. I did not read that JR, made up anything. He just said that he called 2 fouls on his kid. Which could have been very warranted and might be why the kid is a knucklehead, just like his father.

Peace

Reading jr's post, it seems pretty clear what he was doing, although Rut is right, we don't know for sure. Nevertheless, it's his attitude most are criticizing - a move I agree with. "Sometimes we have to abuse the whistle"? Uh, NO.

What Rut is really addressing is the tendency for people to go from 0-1000 on the judgemental scale in the blink of an eye, and the "piling on" that sometimes goes on. Sometimes we have short memories, and we definitely are hypocritical.

Joking and doing are different, though, and jr's made it pretty clear he was going out of his way to screw the player - AND that he'd do it again. Not good.

Not sure?
 

In the "infamous" stories, not sure how much was joking and how much was reality. But then again, you got the point of most of what I said.

Peace

Jeez, this is one of those stories that some officials hear before or after a game where people say some officials are terrible and out of their minds, and I usually think they've gotta be making this up. Its one person like this who makes life even harder for all of us good and responsible officials. Nothing against him, just his actions. Take care.

I agree overall with SME, additionally, there are far more 'bad' things that can happen by addressing fans than the potential for any good. Why take the chance? I mean it-bad things- can cover the gamut (sp?). Crank down the antenna and move on.

[Edited by davidw on Jan 2nd, 2004 at 03:50 AM]

I hope that was a joke.

You hope what was a joke?

I hope jr calling two fouls on 34 was a joke.

Re: Re: Re: Do not put words in my mouth.
 

That's pretty impressive since it's only existed for ~4.5 years and the member list shows you joined in June of 2000. ;)

I agree with you. What JR did may or may not have been a bad thing. It may be that those two fouls were entirely legit...coincidental.

Cameron,

Do you agree with JR's comment: "Sometimes you have to abuse the whistle."?

Back to your original post Rainmaker, I would have to guess that white coach maybe one of those "otherwise" guys, huh?

jr did not just call two fouls:

and slyly pointed to his dad in the stands. he was quiet the rest of the game.


I read some intent to punish in his post.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Do not put words in my mouth.
 

I'd agree that it was a possibility, but he used a couple of phrases that don't allow for that. First and foremost, "abuse the whistle." That's never a good thing, and the attitude is awful. And Rut, it's one thing to joke about it, kinda like joking about not allowing an overtime, it's another to actually abuse the whistle. The "comebacks" thread is another example of this.

Secondly, by "slying pointing" to the Dad, and noting that the Dad was then quiet for the rest of the game, he has at least given the impression to Dad that the fouls were called because of the fan's comments.

This behavior is not acceptable for officials, because he has, at best, given the fan the impression of vindictiveness. At best, it's a ref on a power trip. Unless the whole post was a joke, he needs to reexamine his ego and leave it at the door.
I hope the Dad in question called the league to complain.

Snaqwells

I didn't think of this juxtaposition when I put up my new sig line. Hilarious!

No.

All I'm saying is that he didn't give enough information for me to judege what he actually did. It may be entirely possible that the kid subsequently clobbered an opponent two times warranting the fouls.

What he did after that (interaction with the father), though, I do not agree with in any case.

gottcha.

Re: Let us not all get so high and righteous.
 

That's just silly. The son is not accountable for the sins of his father.



"Far better to let people think you are a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." --unknown

Been around before 2000.
 

This board has been around about before that. This board had a major crash and everyone had to register again because all the previous information was completely lost. So Tony has way more posts than that. I came on this board back in the late 90s originally. Many of the highest posters have been around on both this board and McGriffs for almost the entire time I have been officiating. Which this is my 8th year in basketball.

Peace

Whooooooooo caaaarrreeesssssss!!!!
 

Penn Coach,

You can call me all kind of names you want to. At the end of the day, nothing JR did affected anything I do or affects any game I will do in the future. The only person it hurt was the kid and JR if anyone thinks he did something on purpose. The rest of us will live our lives. No different than if Pete Rose is in the Hall of Fame or not. Who the hell cares?

Peace

What?
 

The part that sticks out is that jr points to the Dad when the kid wonders what is up. Why? Call the game and don't let the crowd get you. What would you respond to the crowd? Why would you interact with the crowd? That demonstrates a lack of confidence in your ability to manage a game and keep control of your emotions. We are partial to the game and call the game without outside influences, especially from parents of kids. Thanks.

Welcome to the forum, reffish.

I think we've have all had moments when we've done things that we regret later. Once I was doing a grade school game (5th grade girls) early in the season. Everytime one of these little gals tried to stop during their dribble, they shuffled their feet. There was no advantage being made on their opponent, etc..you get the point. The coach kept screaming for a travel. So, I called four traveling violations in a row (two for each team), then I turned to the coach and said "Are we all done calling unnecessary travel violations now?" Looking back, I regret it. Highly unprofessional. After the game I spoke with the coach and apologized for how I dealt with the issue. We had a good conversation and he agreed that being "over-officious" with the travel violation at the time in the season (December) and given the level of play, would simply take away any flow at all. I told him that if I came back at the end of January and they were still taking the extra shuffle, I would call it.

Live and learn. If given the chance, I would have responded more professionally.

Cheers!
Becky