Technical foul in front of partner

[RookieDude]

Two Veteran officials working a H.S. boys varsity contest.
Fast break with Lead right on top of the play. As player A1 goes up for a lay up, B1 fouls A1. Lead official sounds whilstle and signals a foul on B1.

The momentum from the play takes both players into the padding on the wall. B1 ends up running into the padding first with A1 following right behing him. A1 does in fact make contact with B1 and gives "a little" forearm shiver to the back of B1...maybe out of frustration of being fouled on an easy layup, or maybe just to let him know he was there.

Tweet! Trail comes in with a Technical foul on B1 for unsportsmanlike conduct...(probably could have gotten him with an intentional foul during the dead ball period.)

Clear the lanes...A1 shoots two
Go to the other end and a Team B player shoots two for the T with the lanes cleared
Ball out at the division line opposite the table

At the conclusion of the game both officials were talking in the locker room. Lead tells Trail that call was "weak". Not really mad, but just kind of kidding. (Of course, I've been told there is a little truth in all kidding) Trail says he called it because he thought the Lead's back was to the play...Lead says, "no way, I passed on it. I didn't think it warranted a foul." Trail apologizes for calling in his primary...but said he didn't think they should let that kind of stuff go. BTW, it was a 14 point game with 2 minutes remaining with Team A leading.

Of course it got funky after that...Team B nails three 3 pointers after making the 2 shots on the T...Team A didn't get to cruise for the win, but did end up winning by 3.

Did the Trail do the right thing by calling the T in the Leads primary?

RD

[Putty]

I am just a second year official but have been involved with basketball for many years either coaching or playing. There is a good chance that A1 did this out of spite. However, it would be clearly obvious to the officials if it warranted a T. I have always been taught to call in you area only. In my opinion I think that the T should have been passed on.

[BK]

I don't know but I've been told...

primary areas exist primarily during live ball in half court situations. In transition and during a dead ball, you don't have a primary...you have a ballgame to referee.

Ask yourself this, what if it wasn't cheap...what if it was a deliberate punch to the kisser...would you now pass on it based on where it happened? If everyone in the gym saw it but your parnter, and you didn't call it because HE passed on it, THAT would be weak!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by BK
Ask yourself this, what if it wasn't cheap...what if it was a deliberate punch to the kisser...would you now pass on it based on where it happened? If everyone in the gym saw it but your parnter, and you didn't call it because HE passed on it, THAT would be weak!

This is a totally different situation, and has nothing to do with what happened. The Trail should have passed on this call unless it was one of those OMIGOD!! things, and the Lead is rounding up the ball or something. When Trail comes in with this call, it signals everyone in the gym that he or she doesn't trust his or her partner, and that "I know more than my partner does." Not a great way to treat your best friend, even if the best friend part doesn't last more than a couple of hours.

[JRutledge]

I am not sure that during a dead ball, you even have a primary. So really, if anyone sees a play, it is up to the officials that see it to make the call. Now if my partner is all over the action, then I will let them use their best judgment as to whether to make a call or not, but really that is not a "primary" area when players come to the floor or go hard out of bounds. I was not there, but there might be two or more officials on the scene when players get goofy.

And if any call was going to be made, it was going to be a Technical foul. It just would have been an Intentional Technical, same result would have applied. (4-19-5)

Peace

[rcwilco]

Trail "thought" lead's back turned. Like rainmaker said, unless my partner is at the table or absolutely not there that is not my call and I will trust my partner.
I do not agree that there is no primary in transition. If both officials are watching ball while it is coming down the court trouble is just waiting to happen. Even if you are hanging back to help you still have an area to watch other than in front of your partner. Without an area to watch we end up with two sets of eyes on the ball.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by rcwilco

I do not agree that there is no primary in transition. If both officials are watching ball while it is coming down the court trouble is just waiting to happen.

Jeff didn't say no primary in transition. He said no primary during a dead ball. I'm not sure I agree with him, though. I would say in this particular situation, Lead was just signalling a foul, players were carried out of bounds by momentum, and the play was not yet over. Presumably, Trail was out around the 3-point line somewhere. Lead should still have eyes glued to players A1 and B1 for just the kind of thing that actually happened. I think it's Lead's call one way or the other.

Rookie Dude -- if the ball was dead, there's no way it could have been an intentional foul. It would have been a technical foul. I think calling the T for unsportsmanlike conduct is safer in terms of the nit-picking details. Was the ball dead, or not? Doesn't matter, the behavior was unsportsmanlike. If it was very rough at all, could even have been flagrant and toss the kid.

[BayStateRef]

I am trail and call a hand check on B1 in my primary while ball is down toward baseline. After whistle, B1 deliberately pushes A1 in the back. My partner is looking right at the play. Before reporting, I go to my partner and ask: "Did you see a deliberate push in the back." He sure did, so I give the player a T on top of the original foul.

Why did I ask my partner? It was such a stupid foul, I wanted to be sure the player didn't trip over her feet and "happen to push" the other player while she gained her balance. It's a 20-point game at this point and I'm not anxious to add a T.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[/B]

Rookie Dude -- if the ball was dead, there's no way it could have been an intentional foul. It would have been a technical foul. I think calling the T for unsportsmanlike conduct is safer in terms of the nit-picking details. Was the ball dead, or not? Doesn't matter, the behavior was unsportsmanlike. If it was very rough at all, could even have been flagrant and toss the kid. [/B][/QUOTE]It could have been an intentional technical foul. It fits the rule book definition of one completely - R4-19-5(b)- A technical foul is an intentional or flagrant contact foul when the ball is dead, except a foul by an airborne shooter".

Btw, I agree with Rut. Primaries ended when the play was over. One of the the trail's duties in 2man is to watch the player activities for conduct just like this while his partner is reporting. Actually calling it in this particular case might be open to each individual official's judgement, but that's a different discussion.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Btw, I agree with Rut. Primaries ended when the play was over. One of the the trail's duties in 2man is to watch the player activities for conduct just like this while his partner is reporting. Actually calling it in this particular case might be open to each individual official's judgement, but that's a different discussion.

I see your point, and I think you'd agree that if the trail were calling and reporting, it would be the lead who'd have all the players in their primary, right? My point was that just because the ball is dead, doesn't mean that lead is off the job. This happened so fast, that I think the play should still be in Lead's primary, right? If they'd pre-gamed that the other ref would call the second one in a bang-bang situation, then I could see the Lead holding the whistle, and Trail coming in strong to sell the call. I would hope they'd have eye-contact first. But, if no pregame, I'm at trail, I'm calling nothing on this, unless Lead had very obviously turned back on play.

[Bart Tyson]

I agree with Rut and JR. This is a ideal time for your partner to come in and take care of business. Non-Basketball activity may be handled by any official from anywhere on the court. Now having said this, I will also trust my partner on boarded line activity. I'm not coming from half court to get a little push when my partner is on top of the play.

[JRutledge]

This is also why this should be pregamed every time to some extent. Anytime you have a hard foul, you should remind each other not to be so quick to leave and report the foul, when we have bodies on the floor. Or you should not be so quick to look at the possession arrow. I personally tell my partners to wait for them to get up and untangled before we leave the situation.

Again I was not there, it is also not clear to me who was standing where and how far away they where when the T was called. I guess if it was me, I feel that my partner might have saved my hyde, rather than question how week the call was. Because if my partner is standing right in front of the benches and a player throws and elbow, the coach probably saw the same thing the official did and something might need to be called. There is also a thing as being "too close to the play," as well.

Peace

[Bart Tyson]

Well said Rut.

[BigJoe]

The dead ball situation has nothing to do with primary coverage. When a foul is called there is a reason that the non calling official watches the players while the calling official reports the foul. In this case, the calling official could have turned toward the table after the initial contact or could have had his momentum carry him toward the wall as well. If the players went into the padding, chances are that the wall was close to the endline. In any case, a cheap shot called by any official is not a "weak" call. If this was allowed to go, chances are you are looking at something alot worse on the other end of the floor.
JMHO

[BK]

REFEREE THE GAME!!! If I make that call and my partner gets pissed, he can scratch me...it's an easy call! At least if I'm reading it correctly.