Friday night I was working a game when my partner and I had a situation arise. We didn't administer it right by the book, but we still got through it and satisfied both coaches. I know now after getting home and reading the book on how to properly administer this if it happens again. Here's the scenario:

Team A has the ball and is dribbling up the floor, while being pressed by Team B. Player from Team A sets an illegal screen, and is called for the foul. Same player from Team A, then in turn is hit for a Technical foul due to his language directed towards referee. Team B player secures the ball and is asked "three" times by the other referee to hand him the ball. Ignoring the referee, he then drives to the basket and shoots a lay-up. Player from Team B is then hit with a Technical foul for delaying the game. Please give feed back as to what you would have, and how you would have administered these three fouls?

Is team B in the bonus? If so, the B player shoots his FTs with no one on the lane.

B then shoots the FTs for the T against A.

A then shoots the FTs for the T against B.

A gets the ball at the division line, opposite the table.

BTW, these are not simultaneous technical fouls.

Is it the mythical false multiple foul?? Cool! Somebody save this thread for posterity...

I'm surprised this didn't end up on this years Part II test!

It's a false multiple foul followed by a false double foul.

Followed by MTD Sr. having an orgasm. :D

The second foul made it a false double foul, the third foul made it a false multiple foul. So both types of "false" fouls occured in this play.

MTD, Sr.

That would be incorrect.

Personal foul on A.

Technical foul on A. (False multiple foul)

Technical foul on B. (False double foul)

Like a double negative makes proof positive, do two falses make a truth?

Can someone make a truth table for all these weird fouls?

I love the way we administer penalties for fouls in the order that they happened.

Me bad, I was reading the dang post backwards.

MTD, Sr.

Could this have been a unsporting T? And since this was a delay of game T, is it a team T or personal T?

Yes, it's an unsporting T. Which in NF is both a personal T and a team T. You've been doing some college lately?

Are you gonna charge this player with a T, and also charge the team with a T? Or am reading this wrong? Methinks R10-3-6a or 6b covers it pretty well, as a player T.

Question??? Some officials(maybe from Ohio) might also notice, that in addition to delaying the game, the player also committed the dastardly deed of shooting a lay-up. Rule 2-7-4 specifically bans practising during a dead ball,except between halves. My questions are(1)would anybody call this? and (2)if you did,what is the penalty?

Now what just a minute! The only logical foul in this situation is a technical foul charged directly to B1 for unsportsmanlike conduct. That is the description that best fits this crime.

Question??? Some officials(maybe from Ohio) might also notice, that in addition to delaying the game, the player also committed the dastardly deed of shooting a lay-up. Rule 2-7-4 specifically bans practising during a dead ball,except between halves. My questions are(1)would anybody call this? and (2)if you did,what is the penalty? [/B][/QUOTE]


Now what just a minute! The only logical foul in this situation is a technical foul charged directly to B1 for unsportsmanlike conduct. That is the description that best fits this crime.
[/B][/QUOTE]Agree, Mark. I just posting a what-if.I wanted to know if anybody would make a practising-during-a-dead-ball call in addition to the player T, and also what is the penalty for the illegal practising if it is called.

Actually, I asked because this reminded me of a call that you said that you once made. To wit, the one where a player jumped off a teammate's back and then dunked the ball. I believe that your call was a T for climbing on or lifting a teammate, followed by another T for dunking a dead ball. The play above is somewhat similar.

Now what just a minute! The only logical foul in this situation is a technical foul charged directly to B1 for unsportsmanlike conduct. That is the description that best fits this crime.
[/B][/QUOTE]Agree, Mark. I just posting a what-if.I wanted to know if anybody would make a practising-during-a-dead-ball call in addition to the player T, and also what is the penalty for the illegal practising if it is called.

Actually, I asked because this reminded me of a call that you said that you once made. To wit, the one where a player jumped off a teammate's back and then dunked the ball. I believe that your call was a T for climbing on or lifting a teammate, followed by another T for dunking a dead ball. The play above is somewhat similar. [/B][/QUOTE]


I remember that play you are talking about. I issued three T's acutally. One to the player who lifted his teammate up and two to his teammate, for climbing on his teammate's back and for dunking a dead ball. By rule these were the correct calls, but the important thing to remember is that this was not in a H.S. or college game or even in an AAU or YBOA national championship tournament. The game was in a quailifying tournament to the Ohio Games (an Olympic style summer tournament). The players' team was getting blown out, its coach had already received a T for being a jerk, other players had received T's for unsportsmanlike conduct, and there was only a minute left in the game. A completely different situation from a "real" game.

Agree, Mark. I just posting a what-if.I wanted to know if anybody would make a practising-during-a-dead-ball call in addition to the player T, and also what is the penalty for the illegal practising if it is called.

Actually, I asked because this reminded me of a call that you said that you once made. To wit, the one where a player jumped off a teammate's back and then dunked the ball. I believe that your call was a T for climbing on or lifting a teammate, followed by another T for dunking a dead ball. The play above is somewhat similar. [/B][/QUOTE]


I remember that play you are talking about. I issued three T's acutally. One to the player who lifted his teammate up and two to his teammate, for climbing on his teammate's back and for dunking a dead ball. By rule these were the correct calls, but the important thing to remember is that this was not in a H.S. or college game or even in an AAU or YBOA national championship tournament. The game was in a quailifying tournament to the Ohio Games (an Olympic style summer tournament). The players' team was getting blown out, its coach had already received a T for being a jerk, other players had received T's for unsportsmanlike conduct, and there was only a minute left in the game. A completely different situation from a "real" game.

[/B][/QUOTE]Yabut.....

What would you call in the sitch that I outlined above(the kinda similar one)? T for delay plus something in addition for the lay-up? If the player hadda dunked the ball instead of laying it up, would you call it then? Penalty for practising during a dead ball?

Just wondering what you or other officials might call.

Mostly college, i have 7 or 8 dates of HS.
Now, back to the Question of Personal T/Team T. Yes, I know a Personal T is also a Team T. But, is a delay of game T a Personal T? Example; A1 in 1st half, bats the ball away after a made basket and the official give a warning. 2nd half A2 does the same thing, Is this a personal T and Team T, or is it just a Team T?

Bart -- Delay of game T's are team only, not personal.

Jurassic -- What I meant was that a personal T is also counted into the team foul total for that half. I just was vaguely remembering that in college and NBA there are some fouls on individuals that don't go toward the team total for the bonus. I wanted to be clear about that.

rainmaker, That was my whole point. The original post said the official gave the player a T for delay of game. I just wanted to make sure I was correct in my thinking about a delay of game T. Thanks

Nah...just one T for unsportsmanlike conduct.

If I ask a player to hand me the ball THREE TIMES and he ignores me...he has commited an unsportsmanlike act before the delay. I probably would have whacked him on the second request for the ball.

BTW, how many of you officials go running for the ball when it is dead? I usually have a player go chase it...same goes if they put the ball on the ground after a violation...I have them pick the ball up and hand it to me. I tell them I'm getting to old to chase the ball around...usually works, and it shows more respect for the officials.

RD

Under ncaa
Here goes...
1. team control foul by A- no shots- B throw-in(closest to illegal screen)
2. A 2Fts for indirect tech. to B for delay( not a team foul or player's 5 for DQ
3. B 2Fts for technical to A player(team foul/ player foul towards DQ.
Back to 1. for POI.
So could you administer in this order 2,3,1. or 3,2,1. or is it in order of occurence(3,2,1, from original post by bcooley66)
I could not find anything by rule to indicate in what order to administer this situation.
Thanks for your response.

I have appreciated all of the feed back relating to this topic. I just want to make sure I have this right before it happens to me in another game. If this in fact is a "false double foul", do you or don't you shoot free throws, and who would get the ball out at the division line. This is how we administered the fouls in this particular game: Team B was in the bonus when the bad screen was set. We allowed Team B to shoot the bonus free throws. Team B then shot the technical free throws. Then we went down to the other end of the floor and allowed Team A to shoot their technical free throws. The alternating possesion arrow was set towards Team B, so we gave the ball to Team B for the throw in. I think we did everything right in shooting all of the free throws, but Team A should have been given the ball for the throw in. (not an alternating possesion throw in). Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks!

Yes, this is exactly what I replied with in the first reply in this thread. A should have gotten the ball.

Just for clarification purposes, the technical foul that was given to the player shooting the lay-up, to my knowledge, does not fall under the team delay warnings. The reference I used for this technical foul was: Rule 10-3, Article 6b. This specific article to my knowledge has nothing to do with the delay warnings that we give, and therefore would count towards the players disqualification and team fouls. Anyway, this is the article that I used in penalizing the player. Hopefully I didn't mess this one up either!

[Edited by bcooley66 on Dec 31st, 2003 at 10:48 AM]

Thanks BktBallRef. I appreciate your comments and help with this!