hello all,


just wanna say i have never personally met any of you guys are gals here but from the rule knowledge and rules interpretations that i have received here, i would referee a game with most of the officials here and thats a fact, thanks for all the useful information over the years you folks are the best and as long as this site is here, we all will make the game alot easier too officiate. now geting to my question during my rules interpretations clinic last wednesday, i informed the guys we will no longer use the terminology "on the floor" this has no meaning in the game of basketball, what we are really trying too say is "no shot", i was trying to point out, if you are saying, on the floor, why not say "in the air" when the airborne shooter is fouled in the air, but my problem is with some of the older veterans of the game, they have been saying this so long they dont wanna change, but i have informed them as rule interpretator and evaluator, if this term "on the floor" is used while being evaluated, points will be deducted from there evaluation. how do you fellow officials feel about this? any information will be greatly appreciated.


thanks


have a very merry christmas



timothy harris
rules interpreter
regional officials association


[Edited by timharris on Dec 21st, 2003 at 04:02 PM]

I feel that you should find something more significant to worry about.

If they don't buy into it, all you're going to do is alienate them. I agree that there are plenty of terms that are used, that shouldn't be. Instead of forcing it on them, why not just do a clinic presentation on all of these types of terms, such as:

over the back
blue ball
on the floor
stay here
that way
jump ball
reachin' in

Make it part of the eval but don't hammer on it.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 21st, 2003 at 07:12 PM]

If you'd feel comfortable working with anyone in this forum, you have a ton more confidence than I do in some of the people who post here.

Alot of folks here are very, very good officials. Alot more are officials just getting started, or only a couple of years in.

this is significant
 

thats the problem you guys are using your own style on the court and thats not the place for it as a referee you need substance and not style thats the problem with officials today we are over looking the small things and the officiating is drastically going down hill, every aspect of the game is important and to be a better official everyone must be on the same page

Re: this is significant
 

Tim, from your response above, it appears that you truly believe YOUR way is the best way. Let me tell you, as an evaluator if you don't show some flexibility, you will be tuned out more so than not. Here's a question. Is every player the same? Every coach? Hardly.

I can totally understand your desire to have every official that works to be on the same page, but that is simply not possible. We have different personalities, mannerisms and attitudes. In order to have every official do the exact same thing every time, you should order your association 100 robots and program them as you wish.

I'm not trying to be facetious here, just pointing out the facts.

thanks basketball ref
 

you made and excellent point, these terms shouldnt even be used in the game of basketball, but i can say this keep using them and you will see how fast you move too the next level, to be a better official we must go back to the basics

Tim, I think that if you do move to the next level, you might find yourself working with a whole bunch of officials that use "on the floor".

This one ain't a biggie. It's really no reason to give someone a poor evaluation, imo. Concentrate on the important things- getting the calls right, getting in and staying in the proper position, game management, etc.

i have opened a can of worms
 

i see this has touched a few nerves, if i stepped on any toes i apologize, im sorry for wanting my guys too be the best, being good takes hardwork, currently im a ncaa baseball official and i can tell you this, if my interpreter tells me something, i best adhere to it or i will be busted back to doing pony league games on tuesday and wednesday, so being and excellent official is hardwork and sometimes you have to make changes you do not like.

[Edited by timharris on Dec 21st, 2003 at 04:45 PM]

Re: thanks basketball ref
 

Hmmm...was this a compliment or a shot. :confused:

1) Please use sentences. They will make your posts easier to read.

2) As I read this, you came across as a "dictator" in announcing / enforcing the change. I'm sure this isn't what you meant to do, and it may not be what you thought you did, but if your actions in the meeting are accurately reflected in the post, that's what you did.

3) NCAA W machanics, 13.B.f, specifically allow, "On the Floor."

Re: i have opened a can of worms
 

Can of worms? Touching nerves? Stepping on toes? You've completely lost me,Tim. You asked for our opinions. That's what you got. If they don't agree with yours, hey-that's too bad. It's nothing personal.

It's just my opinion that there's just one heckuva lot more things that are important on an evaluation than saying "on the floor".However,you are right that the officials in your association should listen to you if you are their interpreter. That's doesn't mean that your advice is valid for other associations and their interpreters,though.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 21st, 2003 at 08:47 PM]

thanks for your comments bob
 

bob didnt mean too come across as a dictator, sorry if i crossd you in that manner. i was making my comment based on the federation level.

Tim is right in his desire for the "ideal" of each official using proper signals and terminology. Also, the elimination of non-orthodox habits (some have become orthodox from repeated misuse) would be a refreshing improvement. However, I think he is "banging his head against a wall" in trying to force compliance.

At the meetings, remind the members of the proper mechanics and terminology. Go over a few points that guys should be aware of so they are informed of what's expected. After that, it's up to them how they proceed. If you have been up front with them about the evaluating criteria, they should have no gripes about points taken off. In reality, most will continue with the old habits when they are not being evaluated. Also, isn't it more important what the asignor(s) wants? If you don't meet his requirements then he can just stop giving future games.

Re: i have opened a can of worms
 

Can you give us an example of a change that you were forced to make that you did not like that compares to this one that you are suggesting/demanding?

You beat me to it.
 

You got that right!!! ;)

Peace

Imagine:

"Well, Tony/Jeff/Mark/Chuck/etc, I'd love to give you that Varsity playoff assignment, but I just can't. Your calls are excellent, your mechanics are great, and your partners say you're a joy to work with. I even had a coach come up the other day and say how fair and approachable you are.

But you're still saying stuff like "on the floor", "that way", and such. That's really incorrect. The players and coaches don't give a rat's a**, but it's still wrong. See you next season."

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cmmsdm/...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: i have opened a can of worms
 

So what you're saying is that being better means listening to you, regardless of how stupid or trivial your "advice" is? Are you going to bust people back to youth ball if they don't follow your every whim?

I am also a college baseball umpire. And 99% of being a good baseball umpire involves calling pitches well and having good game management skills. If you are in a conference where being deferential to the assignor is the most important skill, I feel sorry for you.

I feel more sorry for the officials in your association.

Rich

Look, Tim's trying to do the right thing, just going about it in a heavy-handed manner. "On the floor" really is not a good expression for an official to use. Primarily b/c it doesn't say what the official wants to say. The official wants to say that there was no shot on the play. But as we all know, you can fouled before going airborne and still complete the throwing motion for goal. So the official should just say "no shot", as Tim proposes.

So I agree that "on the floor" really shouldn't be used. (And if NCAAW really say it's fine, well, that's just one more dumb thing they do, frankly.) And if you want to ding 'em a point for it, I suppose that's up to the evaluator.

But, I don't think you'll get much support for "imposing" this as if it were a career-breaker. There really are more important things, as others have made clear.

Before we boot out the phrase "on the floor" we must consider how effective and concise it is. Every one of us knows what it means, and 90% of coaches know what it means, so why not adopt it? When a ref says, "on the floor" all of the players know immediately that they do not need to line up for shots, so they are not standing around confused and the game continues at a good pace.

Also, see rule 4-45 article 1 for use of the term "floor."

With apologies to J. Dallas Shirely, I teach my students to never say "on the floor."

To say "on the floor" is meaningless. When a player is fouled, he/she is either in the act of shooting or not in the act of shooting. A player can be in contact with the floor and still be in the act of shooting. I do not have my NFHS or CCA officials manuals in front of me, but the correct procedure when calling a foul is:

1) The official should sound his whistle and signal the timer to stop the clock.

2) The official should step toward the player who committed the foul and call out his/her color and number.

3) If free throws are not to be shot, the official should signal the spot and direction of the throw-in and announce the color of the team making the throw-in.

4) If free throws are to be shot, the official should announce the number of free throws and announce to his partner(s) the color and number of the free throw shooter.

If this protocol is followed there is no confusion as to what type of foul was committed.

What should be more concerning is that 75% of the time, when an official yells, "On the floor!" continuous motion has ALREADY begun.

I think it's the most misapplied rule/call in the sport! :(

timharris

To be fair, you should also deduct points from anyone who uses spelling, grammer and run-on sentences anywhere near as bad as you do or is half as sanctimonious.

Z

Absolutely. You win the prize. I hear more coaches complaining about my "giving" the fouled player free throws than anything else. But once continuous shooting motion begins, we are in the act of shooting and are going to shoot free throws.

Rich

The larger issue here (I think)
 

I'm a rookie HS official, but I'd like to weigh in on what I think is the larger issue that pops up in discussions such as these.

Some new officials (self included) sometimes sound like basketball rules fundamentalists / zealots. We are book-wise but not court-wise, and grab onto minor points (especially mechanics) as if they were severe infractions.

Some experienced officials sometimes sound like basketball rules revisionists. They are court-wise, but sometimes feel that proper game management supercedes literal interpretation of the manual.

My personal view is that an official is administering the game for (hopefully) knowledgeable players, coaches, and fans. If the official is clearly understood and applying the rules correctly, then I think he/she is doing a good job.

Matt

Mark,

My question is, as officials, are we allowed to ONLY use those phrases, labels, terms etc. found in our NF books and nothing else? I don't think that is the aim or goal of those involved in setting the rules and GUIDELINES. Although I agree that we would probably be understood by most who saw us, we most likely would become very robotic (as pointed out in other comments) and our natural or even developed personalities and communication skills would be lost.

Our task is SO much about communication. A certain amount of our individuality and personality should be allowed to shine forth. As in most things, moderation seems to provide the best outcomes.

My Two Cents Worth...
 

Eveyone knows how important communication is in officiating. It can be visual (eye contact) or verbal. If my partner uses the phrase "on the floor," I know what s/he has. I'd much rather hear that (even if it's technically incorrect) than nothing at all.

Re: My Two Cents Worth...
 

And if they used the more correct term "no shot" or "red out of bounds" I think you would know also.

Sure. But would I know their intent ANY better? Would anyone else?

Rich

The problem with using <em>slang</em> terms like "on-the-floor" is that they so often contribute to the propagation of part of a myth.

Taken literally, "on the floor" implies that you can't have a shooting foul if the shooter is still in contact with the floor. Of course, we know that is not true: once the foot/arm movemets have begun, the act of shooting has begun.

However, to use this term will continue to contribute to controversy and misunderstanding. You and I may know what it really is intended to mean but we are actualy communicating not only to our partners but to the teams, coachs, and spectators. We shouldn't use any words or signals that perpetuate a myth.

Some other common communication phrases or signals that also convey the wrong thing and propagate myths:
<LI>Wasn't set
<LI>Traveling on the throw-in
<LI>Over the back
<LI>Reach

If we are going to use non-book terminology, we must at least make sure it is not actually communicating the wrong thing.

Instead of "on the floor", I simply state "White, 44, block, blue ball OOB" (while pointing to the spot). If it is close, I'll preface that with "No Shot" (and matching signal).

[Edited by Camron Rust on Dec 22nd, 2003 at 05:11 PM]

By calling the foul "on the floor" and pointing to the floor, you are telling the crowd that you are a real veteran and have been around a long time--kind of like when the new troops showed up in the Phillipines during WWII and saw the old veterans with the gold teeth necklaces on. OUCH. It is not correct but everyone knows what it means and it just "ain't no big thing".

Tim...

Do you really think this is something that deserves even recognition? Honestly. I've got bigger problems to worry about (players, coaches, etc.) than to wonder if I used the correct adverb or technical terminology.

Lighten up.

The thing about many evaluators that drives me crazy is that they will deduct points for SAYING on the floor, but won't touch judgment (was he really "on the floor" or was he in the act of shooting).

Baseball evaluators will do the same thing -- they will never say that your judgment is terrible when calling pitches, but will nitpick about things that don't matter instead.

Sure, this is not really a BIG deal but it is so easy to change. There are no negatives with doing it right while there are some minor negatives with doing it wrong. The only real reason to refuse changing is ego.

Ego?
 

But you still have not convinced me and many others, "what the big deal is." If you say "on the floor" or not, I am trying to understand why this is an issue in the first place? And I am trying to understand what confusion is called by using the term? I usually say "no shot," but I am not confused when someone says "on the floor." To me this is like trying to make an issue out of someone saying, "two-shot bonus" or "super-bonus," most of us knows what thay means. Why get caught up in semantics?

Peace

WWII...damn...but you're right, no one wants to be the NFG! :)

The biggest problem with the term is that the shooter being "on the floor" actually has no bearing on whether the foul is a shooting foul or not.

He can be "on the floor" and continuous motion can have already started.

That's why the term is inaccurate.

I personally don't think it's a really big deal, but I personally will say "on the spot" and not "on the floor" if there's a doubt.

But then, I say "that way!" so what do I know? ;)

Tim,

It is important that communication is strong while officiating. A foul is called and the fist goes up. The coaches are looking at the official as soon as they hear the whistle to see if the official has an open hand or closed fist. If you do not believe it, call a foul and give the open hand violation sign, the coach will eat you up.
It's just like the signal pointing to the floor or shouting "on the floor" give the coach as much information as possible so when you report to the table you are less likely to get any crap from the coach. Everyone in the stands,on the floor, and on the bench know it was a foul before the shot.

Useta use (wayback)---point at floor and holler "before".

More effective if you hop up and down on one foot while you're doing it. I was a Manny Sokol fan- my all time favorite official. :D

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 23rd, 2003 at 03:33 PM]

Sigh. Ok, I'll try this for the second time. I know that Tony has already tried a couple times. The problem with your statement Clay, is that "on the floor" does not give the coach "as much information as possible", as you seem to think it does. All it does is say that the player was still touching the floor. As we all know, however, you can be in the act of shooting and still be "on the floor". So saying "on the floor" really doesn't tell anyone whether you are shooting FTs or not.

If you really want everyone to know that the foul was before the shot, then simply say "No shot!" How much simpler could it be? If you don't care about saying "on the floor", then do you also not care about saying "over the back"?

Again, I understand that there are more important things, but I don't see why there's so much resistence to saying what you really mean. . .

I THINK IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT LEVEL OF GAME YOU ARE REFFING.

IF IT IS HIGH SCHOOL OR LOWER, I THINK ITS A GREAT CALL TO MAKE JUST AS CLAY SPELLS IT OUT SO CLEARLY ON.

IF IT IS HIGHER UP,WHO CARES, THEY DONT SEEM TO CALL THE SIMPLE TRAVEL OR PUSHING CALLS AND WE ARE WORRIED ABOUT SAYING "ON THE FLOOR". PA LEASE LETS KEEP IT SIMPLE FOR ALL.

Don't you mean FNG? :D

I can't believe we are on page 3 of this. If I am wearing a belt with patent leather shoes while wearing a micromesh shirt, can I then say "on the floor" while knowing that my presence will overshadow my slight indescretion?

I never thought it was a big deal. And I never thought the meaning was litteraly, s/he's touching the floor. I take it to mean, we are inbounding instead of shooting 2. I do say it but only when I think there is doubt. If that's the worst ding on my evaluation, I'd say woo-hoo (considering there's so much more I could probably get dinged for).

Mregor

[Edited by Mregor on Dec 23rd, 2003 at 03:47 PM]

Hey Chuck, you telling us you're worried the coach who just finished screaming for "3 SECONDS!" might be misled by you yelling "on the floor"?

But I agree, it's easy enough to say something other than "on the floor" and be undrstood.

Chuck,

I guess I was giving the coach more credit than he deserves. I forget sometimes that coahes are idiots and they would not understand on the floor.

yeah...

Personaly, I'm trying to change mine to "befor the shot" but I'll admit its a hard habit to break.

I think I understand why you want to be "by the book" as an evaluator but have to agree with many here that you probably have a lot more important issues to deal with in your organization than some excess verbage. If the correct mechanics are used (ie by the book) they inform your partner, coach, player etc that you are going to shoot or be OOB so verbage is somewhat redundant. On the other hand it certainly helps when selling a call at certain times during the game. If they use "on the floor" for each time a player is fouled it certainly would not be useful. Working with the younger members to be mechanically perfect is certainly going to be less frustrating for you. I would think you should be more concerned with a correct call and the proper interpretation of what is "in the act of shooting".

Thank you Tony. I have already made this point and now that two of us have made it more people will listen to us. The phrase "on the floor" is meaningless. It is like having your partner tell you "its good" instead of telling you the ball went in or did not go in.

MTD, Sr.

Using "on the floor" to sell a call is not a good mechanic. Being confident is using correct mechanics and foul reporting protocol is the best way to sell a call.

For seven years I have always thought that "on the floor" meant that the ball is to be administered (usually on the endline) OOB (player standing on the floor), instead of the players all lining up for foul shots. So how do you like THAT for communication?

My interpreter has always said that "on the floor" is NOT proper and we should not say it (no threats attached). I usually communicate to my partner "two shots" (fingers up), or I say "possession" and point to the spot, then run report the foul.

It's Christmas Eve Eve, and look what we are doing-
Talking basketball (guess I have no life).

I'm with nine01c -- I thought it meant where the re-start would happen. Must be a girl thing.

But don't worry Dan, I'm still perusing the board 2 hours a day even though the touchy-feely part of me is screaming, "Cookies!! Candy!! Pretty bows!! Sentimental cards!!" and so on. Maybe the balance is getting better.