PC or not

[drinkeii]

Hi - got another situation... How about this: A1 is driving toward the hoop... they are being guarded by B1, who has not at any time established a LGP - just got in front of them, but never planted at any point. A1 drops a shoulder and drives into B1... Since B1 hasn't established a LGP, it seems like it should be a block, but then again, A1 clearly initiated the contact between them in this situation. Contact occurred in B1's mid chest region. B1 was not moving toward A1 at the time the contact occurred. Opinions?

[canuckrefguy]

TWEET!

THAT WAY!

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
TWEET!

THAT WAY!

I'm assuming you mean PC - but why? Rules governing this? I mean, like I said, the rules seem to indicate that if the defender has no LGP, then chest contact is on the defender, not the dribbler... I mean, it's much more clear if the dribbler reaches out and pushes... but dropping a shoulder and pushing into them is a little more... I dunno - It's hard to explain... What part of the rules does this come from? (common sense is another thing - heh)

[canuckrefguy]

LGP is irrelevant if it is the ball carrier who initiates the contact via push-off, straight-arm, or in this case, lowering his shoulder and ramming into the defender.

You must remember that the defender has a right to run ANYWHERE on the court (including in front of a running dribbler), so long as he does not illegally contact an opposing player in the process.

Explanation to coach:

"Coach, he pushed off/gave him a shoulder-butt/straight-armed. Too bad, too - I was ready to call a block."

[BktBallRef]

Why do you say that the guard has not established a legal guarding position?

Remember that time or distance is not required to gain a LGP. The defender is not moving toward the dribbler. If A1 drops his shoulder and hits B1 in the chest, and B1 has not moved toward him, B1 has LGP. There's no other way for him to be in that position. B1 is entitled to his space on the floor, if he obtained it legally and got there first. All B1 has to do is get to the spot first and it's a PC foul when A1 makes contact. Time and distance not required.

PC.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 19th, 2003 at 01:20 AM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
...and hits B1 in the just...

Haven't heard this euphemism before, thanks for clueing me in. Having three sons, I like to keep up on the latest slang! (insert cute winking little smilie here)

[just another ref]

Originally posted by drinkeii
Hi - got another situation... How about this: A1 is driving toward the hoop... they are being guarded by B1, who has not at any time established a LGP - just got in front of them, but never planted at any point. A1 drops a shoulder and drives into B1... Since B1 hasn't established a LGP, it seems like it should be a block, but then again, A1 clearly initiated the contact between them in this situation. Contact occurred in B1's mid chest region. B1 was not moving toward A1 at the time the contact occurred. Opinions?

drinkeii: This situation, along with the other similar deal
you(?) posted recently, I think provides an excellent example of what can happen when you put too much emphasis on the written words from the book and not enough on what you are seeing as it unfolds in front of you. In the case at hand you may write a thesis on why you had a good blocking call because the defender had not established his second foot on the floor with his torso facing the opponent. BUT, if the video later shows that the only contact was between the dribbler's elbow and the defender's jaw, your call will still be difficult to sell.

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by just another ref

drinkeii: This situation, along with the other similar deal
you(?) posted recently, I think provides an excellent example of what can happen when you put too much emphasis on the written words from the book and not enough on what you are seeing as it unfolds in front of you. In the case at hand you may write a thesis on why you had a good blocking call because the defender had not established his second foot on the floor with his torso facing the opponent. BUT, if the video later shows that the only contact was between the dribbler's elbow and the defender's jaw, your call will still be difficult to sell.

I understand that... I am trying to come up with a reasonable explanation to give to the students who are officiating in my league about why something should be a block or PC, based on the rules. It is very difficult (and I take a lot of flack) for me to say "Well, it's this way just because." I want to be able to say "Here's why...", and your explanation helps.

Thanks!

[cmathews]

I agree whole heartedly it should be a PC, and to further BBR's explanation (like his needs any furthering), if the offensive player drops his shoulder, it is due to impending contact. You never see a dribbler drop a shoulder in the open court, if there is impending contact and he can brace for it, he can also choose to avoid it. If there is time for recognition, then the Defense has most likely established LGP....

[rob.wilson]

Yep definately a CHARGE!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by drinkeii
I understand that... I am trying to come up with a reasonable explanation to give to the students who are officiating in my league about why something should be a block or PC...

The explanation is that Legal Guarding Position isn't the only way a "defender" establishes position. If some hapless B-team player is standing still near the basket gazing helplessly at a cheerleader, and the dribbler slams into the defender's back, there's no legal guarding position, but clearly a PC. Legal Guarding Position is a way that the rule makers have acknowledged that there can be good moving defense as well as good stationary defense. LGP allows the defense to react to the offense and not just plant and hope for the best.