Sure! Beat up on me! :)
I see your point Kelvin.
I've worked with this man for 10 years and it probably wasn't much of a shake. It may have even been a look of no response. I knew he didn't have it.
I am sure he didn't jump it because the ball was solidly on my line and he simply deferred to me to either guess or go to the arrow.
You be well.
mick

Never beat up on you...

Now I m off yo beat up on some plywood. You ought to seehow much furniture you can uild out of plywood

Kelvin -- Well, thanks for the snaps. The problem in this particular situation wasn't whether she was out of bounds, it was whether she had actually touched the floor oob before she "saved" the ball back to a team mate. I blew it, in blowing too soon, without thinking about whether she touched down before or after she scooped the ball. I wasn't very far away, and my partner was, but I do think he saw the play better than I did, although your point about watching off ball is well-taken. I agree about the general rule that trail should take everything behind the division line. But that far oob call, IS INDEED very tricky.

Kelvin, just my opinion, of course, but I disagree. I don't like having the Trail blow the whistle in this situation unless the Lead obviously doesn't have it. I understand the rationale, and it's a good one! The Lead is supposed to be officiating off the ball! But I would prefer to have the Lead whistle the call and look for help if s/he needs it, simply b/c that's the way it's "supposed" to be done. If the mechanics manual gets changed, I wouldn't have a real problem with it; but unless both officials are used to Trail having that whistle, I'd rather go by the book. In my pre-game, the only exception I make to this is if there is a high trap and heavy pressure on the ball. Then it's very likely that the Lead will be screened from seeing the ball hit the line, and so it makes even more sense to have the Trail whistle it. But in any case, the real problem in Juulie's situation was not that she was the one who blew the whistle; it was that she blew the whistle a little too soon.

I really don't like this, Kelvin, b/c sometimes I will look to my partner to see if there was a partial block or tip. I know that the shot was an airball and went straight OOB, for example. But b/c the shot came from out of my primary, I'm not sure if B1 got a finger on it. So I'm not looking for a call. I'm looking for confirmation. So I don't want the "thumbs up". If you can't give me confirmation, just tell me that, and I'll go thumbs up. Just my preference, I guess.

Kelvin,

When you are lead and the ball goes out on the baseline in the trail's primary (C's primary in 3-official), do you expect the T (C) to make that call?

This mechanic is what the Referee books recommend, but I think the FED has it right. Lead has the baseline and closest sideline all the way down -- trail has the sideline and backcourt line. If doubt, consult partner.

Rich

I really don't like this, Kelvin, b/c sometimes I will look to my partner to see if there was a partial block or tip. I know that the shot was an airball and went straight OOB, for example. But b/c the shot came from out of my primary, I'm not sure if B1 got a finger on it. So I'm not looking for a call. I'm looking for confirmation. So I don't want the "thumbs up". If you can't give me confirmation, just tell me that, and I'll go thumbs up. Just my preference, I guess. [/B][/QUOTE]

This is why I use this mechanic for when I want help:

I stop the clock, look at my partner, and say clearly and loudly, "HELP." What's the secret? If I'm looking off ball and the ball shoots OOB out of my primary, I can't help it.

On your play, if you're looking to see if there's a tipped ball, I'm going to help you by heading downfloor if there's no tip -- if I want you to see that I have something to add, I'll close in on your baseline. This also works well on the ball that shoots out on the baseline where the lead doesn't really know who put it there -- partner starts down the floor it gives a hint to the lead to go that way with the call.

When I ask for help, I want my partner to make the call if he knows what it is. If not, I want him to signal the alternating possession. But only when I've clearly asked for help.

Rich

I really don't like this, Kelvin, b/c sometimes I will look to my partner to see if there was a partial block or tip. I know that the shot was an airball and went straight OOB, for example. But b/c the shot came from out of my primary, I'm not sure if B1 got a finger on it. So I'm not looking for a call. I'm looking for confirmation. So I don't want the "thumbs up". If you can't give me confirmation, just tell me that, and I'll go thumbs up. Just my preference, I guess. [/B][/QUOTE]

Chuck no arguments on the tipped airball. I think too often though we officials rely on body language and coaches get confused. If it is an airball and I'm lead and it goes OOB and I have a question on if it is tipped or not I will blow the whistle and ask verbally " was it tipped"? If my partner says no I have the call, If my partner says yes I have the call. If I look for help because I have no idea, I would just as soon use previously described mechanic..

Rich ... never suggested anything of the sort. Suggested that Trail has primary shot above FT Line extended only.

By book you are right about the two sidelines, and this is a gray area, but i have been in too many games where lead has made the long distance call and been wrong...

I had a game a couple of years back I am trail at 28" mark right in front of a A coach. A1 was isolated FT line extended right in front of me. Partner had not completely settled with the strong side, and he had not clearly come across to take it... Ball was passed by A1 to A2. B1 jumps up with legs extended. Ball may have brushed his leg (to this date I am not sure) My partner from lead calls the kick. It may have been the exact height call I dont know, however the B coach. immediately yells at my partner : if you call that who is watching Off ball? Now if I blow that call Coach A yells at me, all I have to say is I did not see it, I was watching for a backside pick to develop and missed the kick. Sorry.. Instead Coach B really did want an answer and it was a legitimate question, at the next time out he approaches my partner and asks same question (he was a little hot, but nothing more than usual) we ended up with a T, a near ejection... It got ugly quick. I had to agree if my partner calls the kick, even if he does see this its a place they should not be looking.

I have had partners adamant about following the fed book, and I can work with that. I have had on more than one occasion, the ball go OOB. I turn and at my partner, and they still did not have a whistle. I still had to blow it because they did not have an idea it had went out.

Either way we do it- you can have issues in the game ( go figure we need 3 person crews on most games above 8th grade) we just need Bill Gates to fund the... ALL NF GAMES NEED THRE REFS FOUNDATION..

I won't argue with you, there -- I wish we did work with 3 officials all the time. However, I am in south-central Wisconsin where ALL high school games are worked with 2 officials. I worked a boys game in the conference that has all the Madison public high schools last night -- 2 officials, of course. If any games here could use three, it's these.

Don't get me wrong, though, I'm not complaining -- 2 officials can still do an acceptable job if they work hard and understand their responsibilities -- heck, the NBA worked 2-man well into the 80s. But this situation is one of the reasons 3 officials cover the court better than 2.

Rich

It's amazing, isn't it?! And in Earl Strom's book, Calling the Shots, he talks about a game where his partner had some horrible disease that involved extensive vomiting, and he had to work alone! Imagine working an NBA game alone!!

Mick, was this three whistle? You said you were 'center'. Did you not give your other partner a chance at it, he may have had some info. The reason I bring it up, is a couple of weeks ago, I'm center and a three point shot goes up from top of key, not my area. I am free throw line extended looking in but I see the attempted shot block and ball deflection. It goes out of bounds and lead properly blows whistle and looks to trail for help. For some reason trail didn't know, so I tooted my whistle and let him know that I had the tip. It was no biggie, I just remember thinking "why didn't he at least look to me when trail didn't have a clue". Even though your trail may have been no where near the play, he may have caught something on the 'look through'.

Yubetcha, devdog69,
Good point.
Lead and I both gave him a quick look.
Nuthin'.
mick