Girls' Varsity (man, it feels good to type that in!). I'm trail. Score close. A1 in front of me passes toward the other side of the floor. B1 jumps up and deflects, ball heads toward backcourt and far side from me. B2 runs to retrieve, dives over the oob line, flings ball. I called oob, gave the ball back to A. Coach B is jawing away, but I couldn't understand what he was talking about. Later, I asked my partner. He said B2 was still in the air when she threw the ball and furthermore, I should have let him make the call, since it was his sideline. He said it very nicely, and not the least critical, although perhaps he should have been.

Here are the questions: 1. I thought trail had the whole back court. Obviously, this didn't work very well in this case. Should I have not called this? I mean, I could have at least checked with my partner, but SHOULD I have?

2. Could partner have run in and given me the chance to correct? What would the correction be? an inadvertant whistle? I guess not...

Well, just plain ol' "RATS!!"

If you saw B2 violate, you were right to make that call.

If you weren't sure, then don't make a call. We don't ask for a partner's help if the ball is still live.

Well, on to the next game.... :)

mick

Juulie, obviously, this is something that you'll cover in pre-game from now on, isn't it? :) When I'm R, the Trail has the whole backcourt in transition. Once the ball has reached the frontcourt, we revert to normal coverages; which means the Lead has his/her sideline all the way to the far endline. It's just something you'll need to talk about beforehand. And if you don't get to talk beforehand, then I would err on the side of "by the book"; which, in this case, means that you would've left it alone.


Probably not. But what're ya gonna do?


I think your role in this situation is one of support. Your partner has first crack at it. If you're sure it's OOB, and he didn't grab it, then fine. Put a whistle on it. But you should probably be the second one in on that OOB call. (The backcourt possibility is another story, of course. That's yours all the way.)

Of course he could've. But as you note, it would not have been an easy fix. Maybe he thought that it was better for the game to move on.

You can't win 'em all, Charlie Brown.

That's 5 cents, please. :)

My understanding from the officials manual is that the lead has the baseline and nearest sideline for all OOB calls.
Our senior officials here have taught me that if I am 110% sure of a different call for OOB to go quickly to my partner, say something like "did you see........" and leave it on their shoulders. I am betting this would be an inadvertant whistle as the ball did not go OOB and there is no change in direction or the call. Maybe it was better with your partner just letting it go rather than work through all of the explanations. By the by I did the same thing in a camp a few years ago in front of evaluators, when they got done with me I have not done it since.

Chuck sums up pretty well my thoughts on this. I'll add:

- if I was absolutely 100% positive you blew the call I would have been more inclined to come in & offer some new info than Chuck seems to be. Not saying always, kinda depends on how things are going. I certainly wouldn't rule it out. If you then decide to change your mind it's simply an inadvertent whistle, give it back to B.

- Again, depending, I might have gone to coach B after I spoke to my partner. "Hey coach, about that OOB play? My partner agrees with you". Or something like that. Then smile, wink, whatever, and go about your business.

Sometimes things just happen. Just think one small thing that could have possibly been a mistake will benefit both teams in every game you have from now on. That's pretty good.

Juulie, the only thing I can add to Mick, Chuck, and Dan's comments is that pehaps your partner did not "fix" the call because he (or she) believed it would only make things worse - whether that be upsetting a coach or damaging your credibility or the crew's integrity...example: three-person game with very new official...I am T, new partner is L...play on my sideline and we have double whistle - I have fist up for a foul, but new partner comes out hammering an oob call and pointing the other direction...my choices: 1)go to partner and tell her that it's my call and I am calling the foul - which would make her look foolish to everyone there and probably cause her to go into the tank...or 2)turn and run down the court and take heat from coach who lost the ball - but it's me talking with coach, not new partner...I choose #2...perhaps your partner choose not to "fix" your call because he didn't want to cause more problems that leaving it alone would cause...geez - that's pretty long-winded for me...sorry about that!

I expect you've got it. He was a very nice guy and a great partner, and a good ref. The whole thing was pretty much no big deal, except to me who still wants to be perfect (you'd think by 47 I'd start to realize the reality...) and the coach who saw the whole thing'better than I did.

Dan, if I'd been the least unsure, I'd have looked to my partner, but the sad part was I didn't even realize I'd blown it until later. Way later. Didn't even get to practice saying to the coach, "I may have blown that one, coach".

Oh, well, now I get to practice, "Live and learn!"

Trust your partner. Don't call his line.

Easier said than done, though, with some officials. :)

Sounds like you're stealing my lines. :cool:
mick

Trail has the primary play (usually the ball) <b><em>in</em></b> the backcourt but the sideline and secondary play remains the lead's. As you found out, line calls are very difficult when being viewed from across the court.

A related example demonstrating lead/trail backcourt coverage that goes against "lead has the entire backcourt"...
A1, A2, B1 and B2 are around the FT line extended on the trail's side in the backcourt. B3 and A3 are on the opposite side halfway between the FT line extended and the division line. A1 passes the ball to A3 who is contacted as the ball is arriving. That is initially the lead's call even though it is in the backcourt since the lead was already covering those players and saw the whole play. The trail will likely not know the whole situation. If there had been no initial call, the trail would shift to those players and the lead would, after the trail has it covered, shift furher upcourt.

Likewise, the sideline is the lead's. The trail should only make that call if the lead doesn't AND it is absolutely obvious that it is OOB.

I've made that mistake before only to have the lead inform me that they were still inbounds by a few inches. I've also seen it made where I was the lead and the partner called it. In one case, the player was inbounds by about 2 feet and my partner called it from about 30 feet across the court.

I think where this gets confused is that often the trial will know who a ball was off of when it has clearly been knocked OOB (while the lead does not) and several official have the trail take that call (in spite of it being lead's line). Me, my line, my whistle (unless it is in the bleachers and I'm asleep)...but I'm not afraid to then defer to the trail to make the call.

They could but I'm not sure they would or that it would be best. It's not exactly like deciding who hit it last before it went out.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Dec 12th, 2003 at 01:55 PM]

Anybody see that?
 

T'other night. I'm Center opposite.

...The ball comes from table side, somewhere between the lane and the sideline. As it passes through the lane and eight players, I follow it to my sideline. *Tweet !!???*

I look to my good Lead and he shook his head. I shook my head and went thumbs up.

I didn't see it.
Lead didn't see it.
Coach saw it. "It was just a bad pass that no one touched!!!"

My Lead said, "Coach, I believe you, but we're not allowed to ask <u>you</u>."

Coach smiled.

From reading, it's unclear that B has possession of the ball. Sounds to me more like the ball was loose, in which case you're going with the AP. Which, IMHO, would just add a new bit of ugliness to the situation.

No player control?
Okay.
How 'bout team control? ;)
mick

Now I am going to add my two cents and tell Juulie that she was 100% correct in making that call. It is true that it was not her sideline but ball was in her primary. This is a situation where the officials book does not make sense. Where I officiate trail has first shot at OOB call above FT Line extended... Heres why Trail has ball Lead has off ball which means usuall a bunch of players down the floor. If I am watching off ball there is no way I saw a ball go OOB 30 ft away, unless I am not watching what I am supposed to... If it really wasnt OOB whoops wont be the first thing you ever missed... Iflead was watching player in mid air aint noone watching off ball.. Good Job Juulie I love that mechanic. This just emphasizes you have to work to the middle of the floor (or beyond ) to work the ball! With those mechanics I'd work with you anytime. I know Garote likes it that way too...

Second on Micks missed call... I dont like the mechanic he describes... If you dont see ball and ask partner for help.. Partner should not shake his head- Partner should go up with it... Its quick and immediate and tells everybody neither one of you have it... If he does not go up and you pause or do anything but a jump now you are dead...

Sure! Beat up on me! :)
I see your point Kelvin.
I've worked with this man for 10 years and it probably wasn't much of a shake. It may have even been a look of no response. I knew he didn't have it.
I am sure he didn't jump it because the ball was solidly on my line and he simply deferred to me to either guess or go to the arrow.
You be well.
mick

Never beat up on you...

Now I m off yo beat up on some plywood. You ought to seehow much furniture you can uild out of plywood

Kelvin -- Well, thanks for the snaps. The problem in this particular situation wasn't whether she was out of bounds, it was whether she had actually touched the floor oob before she "saved" the ball back to a team mate. I blew it, in blowing too soon, without thinking about whether she touched down before or after she scooped the ball. I wasn't very far away, and my partner was, but I do think he saw the play better than I did, although your point about watching off ball is well-taken. I agree about the general rule that trail should take everything behind the division line. But that far oob call, IS INDEED very tricky.

Kelvin, just my opinion, of course, but I disagree. I don't like having the Trail blow the whistle in this situation unless the Lead obviously doesn't have it. I understand the rationale, and it's a good one! The Lead is supposed to be officiating off the ball! But I would prefer to have the Lead whistle the call and look for help if s/he needs it, simply b/c that's the way it's "supposed" to be done. If the mechanics manual gets changed, I wouldn't have a real problem with it; but unless both officials are used to Trail having that whistle, I'd rather go by the book. In my pre-game, the only exception I make to this is if there is a high trap and heavy pressure on the ball. Then it's very likely that the Lead will be screened from seeing the ball hit the line, and so it makes even more sense to have the Trail whistle it. But in any case, the real problem in Juulie's situation was not that she was the one who blew the whistle; it was that she blew the whistle a little too soon.

I really don't like this, Kelvin, b/c sometimes I will look to my partner to see if there was a partial block or tip. I know that the shot was an airball and went straight OOB, for example. But b/c the shot came from out of my primary, I'm not sure if B1 got a finger on it. So I'm not looking for a call. I'm looking for confirmation. So I don't want the "thumbs up". If you can't give me confirmation, just tell me that, and I'll go thumbs up. Just my preference, I guess.

Kelvin,

When you are lead and the ball goes out on the baseline in the trail's primary (C's primary in 3-official), do you expect the T (C) to make that call?

This mechanic is what the Referee books recommend, but I think the FED has it right. Lead has the baseline and closest sideline all the way down -- trail has the sideline and backcourt line. If doubt, consult partner.

Rich

I really don't like this, Kelvin, b/c sometimes I will look to my partner to see if there was a partial block or tip. I know that the shot was an airball and went straight OOB, for example. But b/c the shot came from out of my primary, I'm not sure if B1 got a finger on it. So I'm not looking for a call. I'm looking for confirmation. So I don't want the "thumbs up". If you can't give me confirmation, just tell me that, and I'll go thumbs up. Just my preference, I guess. [/B][/QUOTE]

This is why I use this mechanic for when I want help:

I stop the clock, look at my partner, and say clearly and loudly, "HELP." What's the secret? If I'm looking off ball and the ball shoots OOB out of my primary, I can't help it.

On your play, if you're looking to see if there's a tipped ball, I'm going to help you by heading downfloor if there's no tip -- if I want you to see that I have something to add, I'll close in on your baseline. This also works well on the ball that shoots out on the baseline where the lead doesn't really know who put it there -- partner starts down the floor it gives a hint to the lead to go that way with the call.

When I ask for help, I want my partner to make the call if he knows what it is. If not, I want him to signal the alternating possession. But only when I've clearly asked for help.

Rich

I really don't like this, Kelvin, b/c sometimes I will look to my partner to see if there was a partial block or tip. I know that the shot was an airball and went straight OOB, for example. But b/c the shot came from out of my primary, I'm not sure if B1 got a finger on it. So I'm not looking for a call. I'm looking for confirmation. So I don't want the "thumbs up". If you can't give me confirmation, just tell me that, and I'll go thumbs up. Just my preference, I guess. [/B][/QUOTE]

Chuck no arguments on the tipped airball. I think too often though we officials rely on body language and coaches get confused. If it is an airball and I'm lead and it goes OOB and I have a question on if it is tipped or not I will blow the whistle and ask verbally " was it tipped"? If my partner says no I have the call, If my partner says yes I have the call. If I look for help because I have no idea, I would just as soon use previously described mechanic..

Rich ... never suggested anything of the sort. Suggested that Trail has primary shot above FT Line extended only.

By book you are right about the two sidelines, and this is a gray area, but i have been in too many games where lead has made the long distance call and been wrong...

I had a game a couple of years back I am trail at 28" mark right in front of a A coach. A1 was isolated FT line extended right in front of me. Partner had not completely settled with the strong side, and he had not clearly come across to take it... Ball was passed by A1 to A2. B1 jumps up with legs extended. Ball may have brushed his leg (to this date I am not sure) My partner from lead calls the kick. It may have been the exact height call I dont know, however the B coach. immediately yells at my partner : if you call that who is watching Off ball? Now if I blow that call Coach A yells at me, all I have to say is I did not see it, I was watching for a backside pick to develop and missed the kick. Sorry.. Instead Coach B really did want an answer and it was a legitimate question, at the next time out he approaches my partner and asks same question (he was a little hot, but nothing more than usual) we ended up with a T, a near ejection... It got ugly quick. I had to agree if my partner calls the kick, even if he does see this its a place they should not be looking.

I have had partners adamant about following the fed book, and I can work with that. I have had on more than one occasion, the ball go OOB. I turn and at my partner, and they still did not have a whistle. I still had to blow it because they did not have an idea it had went out.

Either way we do it- you can have issues in the game ( go figure we need 3 person crews on most games above 8th grade) we just need Bill Gates to fund the... ALL NF GAMES NEED THRE REFS FOUNDATION..

I won't argue with you, there -- I wish we did work with 3 officials all the time. However, I am in south-central Wisconsin where ALL high school games are worked with 2 officials. I worked a boys game in the conference that has all the Madison public high schools last night -- 2 officials, of course. If any games here could use three, it's these.

Don't get me wrong, though, I'm not complaining -- 2 officials can still do an acceptable job if they work hard and understand their responsibilities -- heck, the NBA worked 2-man well into the 80s. But this situation is one of the reasons 3 officials cover the court better than 2.

Rich

It's amazing, isn't it?! And in Earl Strom's book, Calling the Shots, he talks about a game where his partner had some horrible disease that involved extensive vomiting, and he had to work alone! Imagine working an NBA game alone!!

Mick, was this three whistle? You said you were 'center'. Did you not give your other partner a chance at it, he may have had some info. The reason I bring it up, is a couple of weeks ago, I'm center and a three point shot goes up from top of key, not my area. I am free throw line extended looking in but I see the attempted shot block and ball deflection. It goes out of bounds and lead properly blows whistle and looks to trail for help. For some reason trail didn't know, so I tooted my whistle and let him know that I had the tip. It was no biggie, I just remember thinking "why didn't he at least look to me when trail didn't have a clue". Even though your trail may have been no where near the play, he may have caught something on the 'look through'.

Yubetcha, devdog69,
Good point.
Lead and I both gave him a quick look.
Nuthin'.
mick