Six Players

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by eckert
Could we try this again without the NFHS v. IAABO stuff? Can anyone respond definitively by rule to this situation, which happened in Virginia last week? To emphasize, an official discovered the six players after the timeout had been awarded and as the players were walking to their benches.

eckert, I'm sorry but you don't get to dictate what individuals post in their replies, even when you're the one who started the thread. Somtimes we choose to discuss other issues within a thread. It's no big deal..

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
The problem is that the officials never discovered that Team A had six players in the game until they were told by Team B during a Team A team timeout. If the officials did not see Team A playing with six players how can they charge Team A with a technical foul.

Mark, that's not true. You're confusing the play in the original post with the case play I posted. Read the play again.

Originally posted by eckert
The officials do not recognize that Team A has six players participating during a live ball. Team A calls time out, and the time out is awarded by an official. As the players are moving toward their bench areas, an official recognizes that Team A had six players participating and immediately assesses Team A a technical foul. Is the official correct?

Nowhere does it say that Team B poiinted out the six players to the officials.

Originally posted by JefftheRef
Because it's a slippery slope. How far back in time is it reasonable, practical for such an ex post facto pentalty to be enforced. What if it 'comes to light' in the second half and happened in the first? The impact on the game, strategically, of imposing a penalty receedingly far after something has happened, can be significant.

Penalize it if discovered while the ball is live.

Jeff, no rule says that. Further, it didn't happen in the first half and we're now discovering it in the second half. The official recognized the infraction within seconds of the team requesting a timeout. If the ball had gone OOB and he recognized it during the dead ball, would it be a T. Of course it would. This is no different. Even though this is a dead ball, there are still 6 players in the game for Team A.

Mark keeps talking about Team B telling the officials that Team A has six players on the floor. First, we know that isn't what happened in Eckert's original play but let's assume this:

Team A has six players on the floor. Team B's coach sees this but can't get the officials to see it. He requests a TO, which is granted, after which he tells the officials that Team A has six players in the game. That's a T, no matter how you shake it out.

And again, this play is no different.

EDIT: Let me say this guys. If I can get away without calling the T, I will. But by rule, I think the official at this game was correct.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 12th, 2003 at 09:16 PM]

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am sorry about the Team B telling the officials. I was mixing the Casebook Play with the orginal posting. My apologies for muddyiing the waters.

[NWRef]

Girls Freshman game this past week(Ugly basketball...really ugly). Time out called by B (visitor) with ball to be put into play under B's basket on table side of lane. End of TO and players return to floor. My partner (Lead) checks with me before putting the ball in play. I count the players and we have 5 A's & 5 B's. I give him the "good to go" nod and away we go.

Ball is inbounded and the scrum begins tableside and works it way cross court near the end line. Lead comes across and I slide table-side to pickup the action off ball and after 3 or 4 turnovers and about 1 minutes time the horn goes off repeatedly. I've got my back to the table. I check my partner and he raises his hand and blows his whistle.

Play stops and I turn to the table and the scorekeeper waves me over and says that B has 6 players on the court. I tell them that can't be right because I counted them myself before the inbounds. I turn and count the players and sure enough there are 6 B's and 5 A's. I check with my partner and then call a T on B as my partner takes A down to shoot 2. As I report the call to the table I ask B's coach when he put in the extra. He said he didn't. He says the girl got up on her own from the end of the bench and put herself in during play. He said he didn't notice her either until we stopped play. I guess she was just trying to help out. When she came out she came up to me and said she was sorry. I told her not to do it again and off she went to get chewed out by the coach. Anybody ever had one like this?

[rcwilco]

I also had a problem with this last week. My partner gives me the sign to administer the throw in after some subbing. As soon as the team throws the ball in the other coach yells out that there are six players on the other team. Tweet, technical. I was table side and got an earful that we did not catch it (also admitted it was their fault). Felt like my partner let me down even though I know that we are both responsible. I try to count and track the players on all subs when I am not the administering offical on a throw in.

[JeffTheRef]

Jeff, no rule says that. Further, it didn't happen in the first half and we're now discovering it in the second half. The official recognized the infraction within seconds of the team requesting a timeout. If the ball had gone OOB and he recognized it during the dead ball, would it be a T. Of course it would. This is no different. Even though this is a dead ball, there are still 6 players in the game for Team A.

Mark keeps talking about Team B telling the officials that Team A has six players on the floor. First, we know that isn't what happened in Eckert's original play but let's assume this:

Team A has six players on the floor. Team B's coach sees this but can't get the officials to see it. He requests a TO, which is granted, after which he tells the officials that Team A has six players in the game. That's a T, no matter how you shake it out.

And again, this play is no different.

EDIT: Let me say this guys. If I can get away without calling the T, I will. But by rule, I think the official at this game was correct.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 12th, 2003 at 09:16 PM]

BBR - Being practical, one side or the other calls time out, the three players on team A have already reached the bench . . . if you didn't have th 6 in the game to begin with, you're surely not going to take team B's word for it that Team A _had_ six players in the game. Don't you think that 'while the ball is live' is a good rule of thumb?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JeffTheRef
BBR - Being practical, one side or the other calls time out, the three players on team A have already reached the bench . . . if you didn't have th 6 in the game to begin with, you're surely not going to take team B's word for it that Team A _had_ six players in the game. Don't you think that 'while the ball is live' is a good rule of thumb?

The original post says that "As the players are moving toward their bench areas, an official recognizes that Team A had six players participating..." It does not say "the three players on team A have already reached the bench..." That's a completely different situation. If I can't verify that 6 players were on the floor, then I don't have 6 players on the floor. But if it's easily recognized that A had 6 players on the floor, it's a T. Whether the ball is live or dead is not an issue.