Last night, Varsity boys game, I had two completely opposite teams. One team was very finesse, quick passes, good ball movement. The other team was very physical with next to no movement. It was a decent game in the first quarter until the physical team starting losing their cool/temper. At half it was a 20 point game. Early in the second half we had to "T" up one of the physical team's players for taunting, this is when it got weird. The physical team's coach started telling (not discreetly) to hurt the other team. He would say things like "next time you have one of their shooters close to you like that you have to take him out" and "if you have one of their guys flying over you to get a rebound you had better undercut him" and "if he is ever that close to you again swing your elbow and break his jaw". Now he was saying more to his kids, but these were the things that I/we heard as officials? Have you ever heard a coach say such things and if so, did you do something about it? Would you consider the words of a coach to his players unsportsmanlike? There was a ton wrong with what he was saying, but what would you have done about it if anything? I am pretty sure I will write a letter to the principal of the school. I am still dumbfounded by that coach.

If I clearly heard a coach saying those things exactly as you said, I would toss the coach - get him away from those kids to send the message to the kids that what he was saying was unacceptable behavior and will not be tolerated on any level. Those comments are so outrageous they call for a clear and decisive reaction. Get that coach off the court so the players can't listen to that nonsense. Write a letter to the AD, the principal, the school board. You have to protect the kids.

Did the kids follow his advice?

Although I would like to agree with Smitty, I can't. This is like the coach telling the kids to foul 'em at the end of a close game. I think we need to call the game that's being played, however, I may be hyperaware of the situation.

Thanks, Stan

The kids never did the stuff the coach said. If they did I think we would have had legal issues far greater than right call wrong call. Thank goodness the kids did not do the things the coach was reccommending.

This is nothing like the coach telling the kids to foul at the end of the game. This is the coach telling the kids to purposely injure the opposing team. Let's say a fan hears what the coach told those kids and saw that you heard it too. Then one of the kids goes out and breaks the jaw of one of the kids on the other team. Can you say lawsuit? I'm not afraid to toss the coach for those remarks. If you don't, you're telling those kids you condone his behavior. Wrong message. There are more important things than worrying about your reputation and "making the right call". I hear a coach tell a kid to break someone's jaw, the coach is done coaching.

Stan, you gotta be kidding! That coach isn't telling his players to foul someone. He's telling his players to <b>injure</b> someone. He's gotta go, and he should go the first time that he spouted crap like that- no warning. Smitty's 100% right on this one!

So Stan, what are you going to do - wait till a kid throws the elbow that breaks another kid's jaw? Then what are you gonna do? Toss the elbow thrower and the coach? How are you going to justify tossing the coach at that point? If you say "I heard you tell that kid to break someone's jaw at your last time-out", your reffing days will be over. You've just set yourself up for a lawsuit. If you don't toss the coach when you hear the remarks, you can't toss him later or else you set yourself up to be as responsible for the injury as he is.

[/B][/QUOTE] That coach isn't telling his players to foul someone. He's telling his players to <b>injure</b> someone. He's gotta go, and he should go the first time that he spouted crap like that- no warning. Smitty's 100% right on this one! [/B][/QUOTE]

On second thought you guys are right. I expect if I would experience the situation I would have had a different perspective than just reading about it. Where's my coffee?


Stan

Those statements by the coach were 100% unsporting. He should have been shown the door immediately.

I had something similar happen in a JV game a long time ago, when I was just starting out and unsure of myself. The didn't say the things repeatedly, like in Ben's story, but he did say like, "Hurt him!". It was the first time I'd heard something like that and didn't know what to do. So I simply said to his player, "That's bad advice. Don't do it." I always felt that I had not handled it correctly.

Fast forward a couple years and I'm doing lacrosse. Coach feels his kid got fouled but didn't get the call. So he yells to the kid (right in front of me :rolleyes: ) "Get 'im in the head!" or something very similar. Flag, unsportsmanlike. I feel like I had to do it. (As soon as I finished administering the foul, he apologized to the opposing coach. He knew he'd lost it.)

We can argue about whether you toss him or just T him, but you've got to assess some foul here.

I agree with Smitty and JR 100%, and lawsuits aside, if this isn't unsporting behavior then I guess I will have to consult Webster's again...and unsporting behavior = T, and without warning. I also say flagrant and T is just the first letter in Tossed....

I guess this would fall into the "dishonorable" catergory of the unsporting rule. Just so you all know, my partner and I called one "T" in the game on one of the coach in question kid. He said some ugly things to another kid. There were no terrible acts by the kids, so we did not show the coach the door. In retrospect, I probably should have thrown the coach, but I was having trouble in determining what exact rule he was breaking and what my grounds for ejection were going to be.

...and the behavior didn't get out of hand, so in this particular situation it turned out okay, and you don't need to feel too upset with yourself. You might consider talking to your assignor who would talk to other refs who will work with this coach in the next few days. It might be helpful to the situation for everyone to be on the same page about this issue. Don't think of it as tattling or complaining. Call it "preventative officiating"!!

Try this next time. Go to the coach and say, "Coach, I heard what you just said to your players. I'm telling you that if one of your players even looks like he's thinking about intentionally injuring someone, not only will both of you be out of here, but this game will be forfeit. You may want to rethink your situation and talk with your players again." Then turn around and walk away.

If he gives you any grief, puke on his shoes.

What he said (except for the puking on the shoes).

Mregor

Mark
Your approach only gets at part of the problem as I see it. Once he has yelled this out, his players, the fans, the refs, AND the opponents have heard this. Your approach fixes him, but a T lets the opponents and everybody else know that you addressed the problem. If you don't do that, his impact on the game would continue through the intimidation that he has on the other team - he has directly threatened their safety on the court.

Coach,
So you know, he was not screaming this out. Only the people immediately surrounding him could hear (say 10 feet or so). So the other team may have never heard, and the refs would only hear when they were within that radius.
Ben

Good thing the parents of the other team didnt hear the coach! If it was my child playing and the refs made no attempt to control the situation who knows how far it would have gotten out of hand. I too also agree with the majority on this and toss the coach.

As I try to imagine myself at THIS game with THIS situation, I ask myself: "What specifically would I do and when?"

It sounds like he must have been saying these things during time-outs or during free throws--based on your description of how only those within a short distance heard him.

“He would say things like ‘next time you have one of their shooters close to you like that you have to take him out’”

That statement might get my attention, but be vague enough for me to question his meaning, but not necessarily take any action at that time. Enough though that I would probably be keeping my "antennas" (antenni ?) up for anything more like that coming from him.

"if you have one of their guys flying over you to get a rebound you had better undercut him"

That statement has definitely got my attention, and if I hear that, I'm taking the "warning" approach and talking to him--along the lines of Marks comments:

"'Coach, I heard what you just said to your players. I'm telling you that if one of your players even looks like he's thinking about intentionally injuring someone, not only will both of you be out of here, but this game will be forfeit. You may want to rethink your situation and talk with your players again.' Then turn around and walk away."

If I'm hearing this one: "if he is ever that close to you again swing your elbow and break his jaw". He's gone!

Above it all, I'm hoping the guy doesn't really mean exactly what he's saying. That we really don't have someone like that teaching our young people. But I'm old enough and seen enough and heard and read enough that I know everything is possible, and that we unfortunately do have these types out there. So maybe I am taking the harder stance.

Whether he meant it or not is irrelevant. If any one of those kids on his team takes that advice seriously, and we as officials don't act appropriately in this situation, we have only ourselves to blame. The coach is an authority figure for these kids. When we hear a coach clearly tell his players to injure the other team, that is way outside the bounds of "spirit of the game". If you let this behavior go unpunished, then the kids on his team get the message that we are condoning this behavior. This official was "lucky" enough to hear the coach say it. What happens the next game when nobody hears him say it and it happens? The kid will get thrown out, some other kid maybe ends up in the hospital, but the coach will go unpunished. The moment I hear a coach tell his kids to injure the other team purposely, he's gone. I send the message to those kids on his team that it is not going to be tolerated and it is not happening on my watch.

No! No! Those last comments are only musing in my mind. Wishes, hopes that someone wasn't really saying that and MEANING it. Like I said in the remainder of the paragraph, I know there are those out there like that. And as I concluded, my stance is one of erring on the side of conservatism and safety.