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ace Sat Dec 06, 2003 01:40am

Something kinna bothered me last night. A big time DI official showed up wearingh is NCAA Official windbreaker making comments about how "its great to see they put me at a level I can call" then dropping credentials about where he called last night (Big DI school) and all that ohter stuff.... He was assigned to the 7th grade gym, my partner the 8th. While I wanted to work the game with him as he's obviously a somebody, his attitude really turned me off about him. I went itno the 7th grade gym at half time and was dissappointed to see his mechanics.... not going all the way under at lead... counts were "eh who cares" kinna counts... I hope that I don't get that way if I start to move up... I dunno what I'm really getting at... but do some people really get that mentality. Theres this one guy in our assc. He's been calling some College ball, but only works sub-varsity and his college schedule. I admire that about him. One of the assignor, top rated offical in our area, great DI official, but he's the most humble person I've ever met. To me the first 2 min you meet someeone is where you make you biggest impression... he made a bad impression on me last night. Something I'll never forget about him. I enjoy the lower level ball, I enjoy Freshman, and middle school... BUt i want to move up. I'm calling a 1 man 5 year co-ed game tommorow morning at 8 oclock for a rec league.... but I'm calling the last game of a freshman girls tourny tommorow afternoon at 3. But I'm back here at a rec leage at 6PM for a 9-10 year old boys game. I'm trying to stay intouch with my roots, because without the lower level stuff, you'll never move up because you wont see wierd plays. Wanna test your rules, force yourself to work on mechanics... i got a league for ya... game management with a lousy partner? yep... I think its the past 3 years that have shaped me the best to being the offical I am today.

Tmeup Sat Dec 06, 2003 01:16pm

I just wanted to comment

This is my first year reffing- I feel very confident making calls but I know that I lack mechanics and am working on it very hard.
My first two games I got to ref I did 7th and 8th grade and I got to work w/ a ref who really didn't care.
It kinda made me think about reffing again.
Then my third game the other refs backed out and I got to ref w/ a proven varsity ref. I learned so much in one night of reffing. and enjoyed it so much and have enjoyed reffing ever since.

For all us newer refs - I would like to thank all the experienced refs for working w/ us- it makes reffing more enjoyabe and it made me want to try to get better so I can ref at higher levels.

One recommendation that experienced refs try to get games early in the season w/ new refs to help them become better officials

just some comments
thanks all

ChuckElias Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:15pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ace
Something kinna bothered me last night. A big time DI official showed up wearingh is NCAA Official windbreaker making comments about how "its great to see they put me at a level I can call" then dropping credentials about where he called last night (Big DI school) and all that ohter stuff.... He was assigned to the 7th grade gym, my partner the 8th. While I wanted to work the game with him as he's obviously a somebody, his attitude really turned me off about him. I went itno the 7th grade gym at half time and was dissappointed to see his mechanics.... not going all the way under at lead... counts were "eh who cares" kinna counts...
Ok, I was hesitant to address this, but I guess I will. I have two comments. First, relax about the guy's mechanics. Mechanics are very important for getting noticed. If you call a good game and have great mechanics, you have a HUGE advantage over a guy who calls a good game but has lousy mechanics. So mechanics are important. But once you reach your peak level, your mechanics become much less important. Mechanics (signals) do almost nothing to help you call a good game. Almost nothing. They're good for communicating to your partner and the table. But your signals have no impact on the calls you make.

But how often do you see GREAT officials on TV who have miserable mechanics? A lot. Why is that? B/c the mechanics are not nearly as important at that level. The important thing is your calls. If you get the calls right, then who really cares about which hand you pointed with?

Please understand that I say this as an official who is VERY mechanically sound. I pride myself on my mechanics, and they have helped to get me noticed. I understand that my signals don't really help me call my game, but I still need them to get attention b/c I'm still hoping to move up to higher levels.

Second comment. I am not "too good" to do certain games. However, there are some games that I would just as soon not do, if another competant official is available. As an example, last year I worked a Division 3 HS girls varsity game. (In MA, Division 3 is the division containing the smallest schools.) The halftime score of this VARSITY game was 12-2.

Now in all seriousness, why was I on that game? There were other officials available who could have done that game, who could have done a very good job, and who would have been very proud to have worked a varsity game. Instead, I did it, and it was a ho-hum experience.

Now, once an official has accepted a game, s/he must conduct himself or herself as if that game were the most important game of the night. And I did that. I hustled, I was always in position, I always used my proper signals and HS mechanics. I called a great game. But that game did not need me.

So this year I told my assignor that I would not accept any HS girls games below the Division 1 level. Why? Because I'm too good for them? No. Because I feel that other officials will be better served by working those games than I would be.

I hope that doesn't make me sound arrogant, but I wanted you to see the other side of the picture. If this big-time official came in and did a crummy job, then that's wrong. He should've treated it more seriously. But you also have to understand that it takes much less effort for him to call that game well than it does for a less-experienced official to call that game well.

Forksref Sun Dec 07, 2003 02:00pm

ACE
 
ACE

Some observations from an old-timer. I have worked basketball off and on for 30 years. My job has interrupted my officiating career, but that's ok. I also have worked football off and on for 25 years. I happen to like FB better because of the teamwork in our crews and just being outdoors.

Moving up is not all it is cracked up to be. Work at the level at which you feel most comfortable. That level might change. Our FB crew had the opportunity to move up to the college level and we did it for 3 years. Due to changes in the geographics of the league because of restructuring with another league, they no longer needed a crew from our area. It was a good experience, but as I look back, I realize that I enjoy HS games better. It's Friday night, you have young kids and you can be a 'teacher' as well as an official when working with young kids. College required too much travel and it just wasn't as enjoyable. The coaches are crazier and I found it wasn't nearly much fun as HS. This year I did some JHS as well and worked with younger officials.

I do this because I like it and I know there is a need for officials at all levels. I also like to help new officials. We lose too many officials after they get started because they don't get the help needed and then they got in tough situations and we all know how rough coaches and fans can be if you screw up. They get burned and quit.

Last night I worked my first basketball in over 8 years. I was fortunate enough to work a HS scrimmage with two other guys and I kept asking questions about mechanics and rules. It's amazing how things change and I was relieved to get some help. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Even old dogs can learn new tricks.

Remember, whatever level you are working, it is like the "Final Four" to those kiids!

Have a great season and hang in there. It only gets better!

JRutledge Sun Dec 07, 2003 02:13pm

Officiating is a job with different requirements.
 
Officiating is about what we enjoy, not what we have to do. When an official gets to a certain level, it is not uncommon for that official to not be enthusiastic to do lower level games. For one, the pay is not the same. The respect given is not the same and the attitude of the coaches and fans are not quite the same. If we are going to be offended because the official that we are working with, did a D1 game the night before, then what else is going to offend us. Maybe that is his experience and like many of us, we like to talk about our experiences. For one I am not at the D1 level, but I could not talk to you about any JH games I have done in the past few years. So when I do one next week, all I can talk about is the varsity tournaments and the big games I have had, when asked. I will be working with an varsity assignor, but the talk will not be about the "big time JH matchup" we had last week.

Now I was not there, but is seems that many here speak of guys that talk about doing levels that many us will never get to, and we seem to take issue with that. D1 Officials are not going to change their mechanics, to satisfy the "lower level officials." They are doing what they are confrontable with and unless the NF changes many of their mechanics to fall in line with the NCAA, they are going to stick what works for them.

I think also the final point should be made on this topic, is that everyone cannot do JH thru the NBA every week. If I even try to do JH, HS and college games in a week, I will never be able to go to work. At this point of my career, it is almost impossible for me and others that do a lot of varsity ball to do any JH games. Many cannot get off at work in time to work those games or we have other games that we would rather do that same day. Even the HS varsity game and a D3 college game are on the same nights. You cannot do both. The travel for the college game is usually longer and the HS games are less pay. And I know many officials that would rather do the college game with 1/3 of the crowd and more pay than a HS varsity game with 2000 more fans and half the pay.

I think younger officials need to try to take the opportunity to learn from officials like this, then getting upset over what level they did the night before. Because if that is an issue, then maybe they should not talk about anything.

Peace

Rich Mon Dec 08, 2003 02:02am

I find this discussion extremely interesting, because I see myself in there somewhere.

I am only scheduled to work varsity HS and above this season. I will work some youth games on Saturday mornings, but only because these are people I like working for -- I certainly don't look forward to the basketball itself.

For me, the excitement of working sports is the challenge it gives me. I am simply not challenged working JH basketball and therefore I do not enjoy it. When one would much rather be home than working a game, it is better that someone else works it. There are levels of baseball I feel the same way about.

Would I look nonchalant working a JH game? Probably. My mechanics are pretty sharp, but I do probably look quite a bit more relaxed than your typical JH official. Actually, I would probably get in more trouble because I would be trying to apply a varsity level of advantage/disadvantage and allowing quite a bit more contact than is customary at that level.

I think the worse thing you can do, Ace, is pass judgement on this D-I official. I have no idea why a D-I official is even working a JH game, but I do know that he can probably call a decent game even if he isn't going all the way under as lead. The experience does help.

Larry Mon Dec 08, 2003 08:34am

To good for lower
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
I find this discussion extremely interesting, because I see myself in there somewhere.

I am only scheduled to work varsity HS and above this season. I will work some youth games on Saturday mornings, but only because these are people I like working for -- I certainly don't look forward to the basketball itself.

For me, the excitement of working sports is the challenge it gives me. I am simply not challenged working JH basketball and therefore I do not enjoy it. When one would much rather be home than working a game, it is better that someone else works it. There are levels of baseball I feel the same way about.

Would I look nonchalant working a JH game? Probably. My mechanics are pretty sharp, but I do probably look quite a bit more relaxed than your typical JH official. Actually, I would probably get in more trouble because I would be trying to apply a varsity level of advantage/disadvantage and allowing quite a bit more contact than is customary at that level.

I think the worse thing you can do, Ace, is pass judgement on this D-I official. I have no idea why a D-I official is even working a JH game, but I do know that he can probably call a decent game even if he isn't going all the way under as lead. The experience does help.

All you guys have great comments, this is my fourteenth season during HS ball. I work JH games because it give me a chance to practice my signals. And, GOD KNOWS I need the exercise, but mostly because I don't want to ever forget the coaches and schools who called on me to help them when nobody else would give me a chance. So, even now when I do my blackout dates, the Varsity games are first, and JH is second.

TPS2859 Mon Dec 08, 2003 09:17am

I to am new to the biz ( in my third year) and I have found it to be very rewarding working with the vets out there. Found only a couple who's egos blinded there ability to teach. One needs to remember to take there advice as constructive critizism and not the oppertunity to put down you as the new guy. Listen to what there saying, they've been there.

mick Mon Dec 08, 2003 09:43am

Quote:

Originally posted by ace
...dissappointed to see his mechanics.... not going all the way under at lead... .
What do you mean, ace?
mick

SoFL_Rookie Mon Dec 08, 2003 09:54am

Agree 100% with Tmeup.

It speaks very well of a profession when those experienced in it are generous towards those just starting out. And I think officiating is that way, for the most part. As a first year HS official working JV games, I really appreciate the chance to work with a veteran. And the first words out of my mouth after the game are, "Thanks for your patience out there."

As for mechanics, I guess I don't understand why some officials don't use the proper signals for the level they are working. Aren't correct signals as appropriate as correct application of the rules? I'm not being facetious here, just genuinely curious.

Thanks,

Matt

ChuckElias Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:31am

Quote:

Originally posted by SoFL_Rookie
Aren't correct signals as appropriate as correct application of the rules? I'm not being facetious here, just genuinely curious.
Yes, Rook, they are just as appropriate; but they're not as important.

DownTownTonyBrown Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:41am

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

...So this year I told my assignor that I would not accept any HS girls games below the Division 1 level. Why? Because I'm too good for them? No. Because I feel that other officials will be better served by working those games than I would be.

I hope that doesn't make me sound arrogant, but I wanted you to see the other side of the picture.

Chuck your points are right on and I am certain you are sincere in wanting to give others the opportunity to work Varsity games. However there are those officials that want, and are striving, and feel they are worthy to work the bigger level games. They may very well not be ready, but think they are. And they may see your unwillingness to work lower games as YOU SELECTING THE BIGGER GAMES FOR YOURSELF.

We have a few officials in our association that refuse to work girls games (same assigner for boys and girls and JH). Most are very good officials and they work just as many games as anyone else. Because they work only boys, the other officials are left with a greater quantity of girls and an occasional lower level boys game. They obviously feel slighted.

I myself, have just let the assigner make the decisions and have not placed any of my own personal restrictions. He knows who I'm compatible with and what level of games are appropriate for me... of course I feel slighted at times. (I work with him tomorrow for an upper level Varsity game and then I work a mid-level JV and a V game split on Wednesday, and a lowest level JV/V game split on Friday - all five girl's games). Of course I wish they were all the higher level and some of them boys games... oh well, it is still five games.

Happy days!
:D

rainmaker Mon Dec 08, 2003 11:07am

Quote:

Originally posted by ace
[B]Something kinna bothered me last night. A big time DI official showed up wearingh is NCAA Official windbreaker making comments about how "its great to see they put me at a level I can call" then dropping credentials about where he called last night (Big DI school) and all that ohter stuff.... what I'm really getting at, do some people really get that mentality? Theres this one guy in our assc. He's been calling some College ball, but only works sub-varsity and his college schedule. I admire that about him. One of the assignor, top rated offical in our area, great DI official, but he's the most humble person I've ever met. [B]
Ace --

I think there's a right way and an arrogant way to handle the situation this D1 ref was in. He handled it the wrong way. He's worried about what people will think if he's working "just" a 7th grade rec game. So he drops hints about all the other games he's done that are so much more important.

I've been told that there comes a point in your move up the ladder where you don't do much rec anymore because it hinders your higher level skills. But I've also seen some very high level refs (D2, D1) around here do an occasional rec league game to help out a friend for some reason. The ones I know knuckle under and do a great job, don't let on how important they are, and give a good word to the rookie they are working with. Find someone with that attitude in your area, and watch them. You'll see what you want to emulate as you move up yourself.

JRutledge Mon Dec 08, 2003 02:36pm

This is a hobby.
 
I think people need to understand that this is first and foremost just a hobby. I consider it a job on many levels, because of the time and energy that I have to put into officiating on and off the court or field. But at the end of the day it is just a hobby that I can make some money doing. When it stops becoming something I do not enjoy, it is time to quit. There is no obligation to do any level and do it the way that everyone feels you should. I would never expect an official that is mostly doing a D1 schedule, to not talk about it or to all of a sudden stop doing mechanics that reflect that. It is a very hard adjustment to keep going back and forth with your mechanics. The rules are different, the philosophies are different and the simple expectations are different. I think we need to keep some things in perspective here. When I get my schedule, I give my open or closed dates to the people I want to give it to. And just like many others, I do not except games of levels I have no desire to do, until most if not all my schedule is in from the people that I have the most interest in doing their conferences.

It is human nature that when you started somewhere, to not really get excited about doing things that you had to do to move up. It does not mean you will never want to go back from time to time, but you do not want to make it a habit.

I do not know about you, but if I was doing D1 games. Considering that I probably would make anywhere from $500-$1500 for one game, probably have security and a decent locker room to shower and get plenty to drink, there might be thousands in attendence at the game. If I do enough of those games in a week, I have enough money to put my kids through school for the year or pay for my house. And if I am getting off of work to do a D1 game, I might be able to make as much money as I do at my regular job (if I need one). You have coaches at the D1 that are not yelling "moving screen" every two trips down the floor. You can bearly hear any specific fans and their comments. Then to be used to that, then officiate for hundereds of percent lower in pay. You might be lucky if you have a locker room, probably an office to get dressed in, where the female trainer is in and out of the office to get supplies, and then you will have a coach that is complaining all game, you have not called a single "reach" all night. Maybe it is me, but I know where I would rather be. ;)

Peace

TPS2859 Mon Dec 08, 2003 04:18pm

I too would like to know why the signals being properly used not a big deal? I've seen refs use signals that I wonder what book they got them from. Such as the over the back call... they look like a monkey hanging from a branch on the call to the bench. Or how about the "slid the hip over" to indicat a block call. Lots of discussion on looks from shiny shoes to no belted pants as far as profesionalism so how about proper signals.

Smitty Mon Dec 08, 2003 04:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TPS2859
I too would like to know why the signals being properly used not a big deal? I've seen refs use signals that I wonder what book they got them from. Such as the over the back call... they look like a monkey hanging from a branch on the call to the bench. Or how about the "slid the hip over" to indicat a block call. Lots of discussion on looks from shiny shoes to no belted pants as far as profesionalism so how about proper signals.
I have to agree that there does seem to be a double standard when it comes to certain things being done properly. I've never seen so many people talk about whether it's ok to wear a belt or not, and the same people brush off using the proper mechanics for the game they're working. I don't get it. If you accept a high school game, regardless of where else you work, you should use the proper mechanics for a high school game. If it's hard to keep track of the differences in mechanics, maybe you shouldn't be working high school games.

Forksref Mon Dec 08, 2003 04:31pm

I think clean, crisp, no-nonsense signals are important. It's part of the total package of good officiating. I don't buy the claim that an official who calls a good game, yet uses lousy signals is a good official. I respect the ones who can do both. Also, a good looking uniform (this includes all-black shoes) is part of the total package.

TPS2859 Mon Dec 08, 2003 04:32pm

It's not hard to keep track of the signals because I do use only those in the officials manuel! My gaol is to keep from being noticed by the fans, not to showboat by devising up my own form of foriegn sign language.

JRutledge Mon Dec 08, 2003 04:53pm

Good Question.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by TPS2859
I too would like to know why the signals being properly used not a big deal? I've seen refs use signals that I wonder what book they got them from. Such as the over the back call... they look like a monkey hanging from a branch on the call to the bench. Or how about the "slid the hip over" to indicat a block call. Lots of discussion on looks from shiny shoes to no belted pants as far as profesionalism so how about proper signals.
I will give you a good example, because the NF is the only ones that make us hold our hand up for an out of bounds play. So many college officials will never hold their hand up to call and out of bounds play. And before this year, we were the only ones required to "birddog" for a foul, regardless of how obvious it is. Now because many that are on the committee are indirectly or directly influenced by the NCAA, they got rid of the birddogging. But I bet you will not see a college official with belted pants. You also will see many college officials with some white on their shoes. Why, because the conferences do not have this "the shoes must be all black or else" policies. They allow a logo to show as long as the shoe is black. And the shinny shoes, I know many D1 officials that where them.

And also understand, the level of professionalism is completely differnet at the college level, then it will ever be at the HS level. Just to do a D3 or JUCO game, I have to be at the site an <b>hour and a half before game time.</b> If I am not mistaken, you have to be there over 2 hours before a D1 game. If you are not there at that time, you are considered late and can affect your future at that level or conference. It is much more than the rules that are different when you get to the college level.

So when officials that have achieved a certain level are not trying to impress someone to get a chance. They have already proven themselves as to what they do. So if you think you should be doing the same thing as a person that is only doing one JH game, because he might have been asked that day to fill in, I really do not know what you really expect. I know when I officiate, I am trying to get HS playoff games. Well many that are college officials are not availible for HS post-season. If they are like many, they are trying to get NCAA College Post-Season Assignments. I do not know that I would be concerned about whether I birddog or not.

Peace

JRutledge Mon Dec 08, 2003 05:01pm

I did not realize it was a Bible.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by TPS2859
It's not hard to keep track of the signals because I do use only those in the officials manuel! My gaol is to keep from being noticed by the fans, not to showboat by devising up my own form of foriegn sign language.
It might be foreign to you, if you have never seen a college manual. All the mechanics are not the same. And if I have learn anything in all the sports I do, the book is a guide, not a Bible that has to be followed to the letter. I have yet to see a single veteran call a PC foul with a birddog. Maybe you have, but I have never known anyone to hold an official's feet to the fire over this issue.

Peace

ChuckElias Mon Dec 08, 2003 05:13pm

Ok, I started this little brouhaha, so I guess I'll answer all of these at once.

Quote:

Originally posted by TPS2859
I too would like to know why the signals being properly used not a big deal? I've seen refs use signals that I wonder what book they got them from.
As I said, proper signals are important. They're simply not as important as getting the calls right. Which would you rather have: an official who fails to stop the clock when calling a travel, or an official who calls 5 phantom travels, but uses great mechanics while doing it? Obviously, you want a guy (or gal) who does both. But wouldn't you ALWAYS rather have the guy who gets the call right? I would.

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
I have to agree that there does seem to be a double standard when it comes to certain things being done properly. I've never seen so many people talk about whether it's ok to wear a belt or not, and the same people brush off using the proper mechanics for the game they're working. I don't get it.
These are not different at all. Whether it's ok or not to wear belted pants depends largely upon the fashion in the area of the country or the league where you officiate. Signals are the same way.

In HS, most associations and assignors stress proper mechanics. At higher levels of ball, assignors place MUCH MUCH more emphasis on play-calling and game management.

People's jobs and livelihoods are literally at stake at these levels; and frankly, if a guy loses a game and his job b/c the official missed the call, it's going to be very small consolation to him that the official had a straight arm when he called that phantom foul with 0:02 left in the game.

Quote:

Originally posted by Folksref
I think clean, crisp, no-nonsense signals are important. It's part of the total package of good officiating. I don't buy the claim that an official who calls a good game, yet uses lousy signals is a good official. I respect the ones who can do both.

So the guys who work the NCAA tournament, but happen to use the NBA block signal aren't good officials? Give me a break! Of course you respect the officials who make great calls AND use great signals, but that doesn't mean that the guys who have let their signals slip are bad officials. Come on, that's just ludicrous.

I also said that the guy who does both has an advantage over the guy who has sloppy signals. Who's the NCAA guy who just points ("That way! That way!") on an offensive foul? I can't remember. But you want to tell me that he's NOT a good official? That's just silly.

Bottom line is to get the call right. Use the right signals when you do it, and you'll get noticed and you'll move up. But once you get up there, you darn well better get the call right, first and foremost.

JMO, but I think some of you may want to rethink your criticisms a little bit.

Smitty Mon Dec 08, 2003 05:26pm

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I only work high school games. I don't work college games or pay much attention to college mechanics. I know that the best games I have are with a partner who is on the same page as me and I know exactly what he's doing whenever he blows the whistle. If my partner starts using mechanics I am not familiar with, it's only going to cause confusion and hesitancy on my part trying to figure out what he's got. I don't care if a guy is new or has dozens of years experience, if he uses funky mechanics it's only going to hurt my game as his partner.

[Edited by Smitty on Dec 8th, 2003 at 04:31 PM]

JRutledge Mon Dec 08, 2003 05:46pm

Come on now, you never watch TV?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I only work high school games. I don't work college games or pay much attention to college mechanics. I know that the best games I have are with a partner who is on the same page as me and I know exactly what he's doing whenever he blows the whistle. If my partner starts using mechanics I am not familiar with, it's only going to cause confusion and hesitancy on my part trying to figure out what he's got. I don't care if a guy is new or has dozens of years experience, if he uses funky mechanics it's only going to hurt my game as his partner.

Then what you need to do is expand your horizons. Because I have learned many college mechanics, by watching college basketball on TV. And when I realized that Women's Mechanics were very different than Men's Mechanics, I learned something. And there are many officials that work both HS and college and I do not expect they are going to use only NF Mechanics when they might officiate more college than HS. If I am that confused, it is time to educate yourself to what someone else is doing. And not raising their hand for an out of bounds, should not be a major issue with any official.

Just my opinion.

Peace

Smitty Mon Dec 08, 2003 05:48pm

Re: Come on now, you never watch TV?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I only work high school games. I don't work college games or pay much attention to college mechanics. I know that the best games I have are with a partner who is on the same page as me and I know exactly what he's doing whenever he blows the whistle. If my partner starts using mechanics I am not familiar with, it's only going to cause confusion and hesitancy on my part trying to figure out what he's got. I don't care if a guy is new or has dozens of years experience, if he uses funky mechanics it's only going to hurt my game as his partner.

Then what you need to do is expand your horizons. Because I have learned many college mechanics, by watching college basketball on TV. And when I realized that Women's Mechanics were very different than Men's Mechanics, I learned something. And there are many officials that work both HS and college and I do not expect they are going to use only NF Mechanics when they might officiate more college than HS. If I am that confused, it is time to educate yourself to what someone else is doing. And not raising their hand for an out of bounds, should not be a major issue with any official.

Just my opinion.

Peace

I respectfully disagree. I think you have it backwards. But that's just my opinion.

JRutledge Mon Dec 08, 2003 05:57pm

Re: Re: Come on now, you never watch TV?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty


I respectfully disagree. I think you have it backwards. But that's just my opinion.

Well, officiating is more than one level. And in my opinion, if you cannot tell what someone has beyond the NF Mechanics manual, then I wonder how many times you are in the dark. Because I have never met a single official that did absolutely everything to the letter in that book. Or better yet, did not put some individual style on the perscribed mechanics.

To each his own. ;)

Peace

Jurassic Referee Mon Dec 08, 2003 06:29pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
In HS, most associations and assignors stress proper mechanics. At higher levels of ball, assignors place MUCH MUCH more emphasis on play-calling and game management.

[/B]
Agree completely.

Has anybody ever seen Bobby Knight scream at an official because he had poor mechanics?

smoref Mon Dec 08, 2003 06:51pm

I do both HS and college. I try it use NF mechanics in HS but I sometimes do forget to raise my hand for OOB or I punch for a PC call.

I do think it is very important to be a role model for the lower level officials that have a desire to move up.

In my pregame for HS I will always state that they might see some CCA mechanics but I will try not to.

However on the flip side in the college game there is alot more communciation between officials and I think that that will bring a crew closure together then raising a hand every time for OOB or choping to start the clock.

cmathews Mon Dec 08, 2003 07:09pm

Just a little comment I have heard from a guy in our Football association that works D1 football. We give him a hard time because he often confuses the rules, and we have to correct him, his response: I can get away with making a college call in a high school game, but I would get fired for making a high school call in a college game..... Just some food for thought...

ChuckElias Mon Dec 08, 2003 07:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I only work high school games. I don't work college games or pay much attention to college mechanics.
Smitty, that's great. I mean that sincerely. The majority of basketball officials in this country never sniff the NCAA. And there's nothing wrong wtih that. Nobody here is telling you to stop using good mechanics, or to stop trying to improve. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't beat up on the really really good officials at the top of the NCAA (remember this thread was started b/c of an NCAA D1 official) simply b/c their mechanics aren't as crisp as yours.

Keep using good signals (I do); keep trying to improve (I do); and keep working as hard as you can (I do). Let the assignors worry about those guys' mechanics. That's all I'll say about it.

Smitty Mon Dec 08, 2003 07:44pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I only work high school games. I don't work college games or pay much attention to college mechanics.
Smitty, that's great. I mean that sincerely. The majority of basketball officials in this country never sniff the NCAA. And there's nothing wrong wtih that. Nobody here is telling you to stop using good mechanics, or to stop trying to improve. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't beat up on the really really good officials at the top of the NCAA (remember this thread was started b/c of an NCAA D1 official) simply b/c their mechanics aren't as crisp as yours.

Keep using good signals (I do); keep trying to improve (I do); and keep working as hard as you can (I do). Let the assignors worry about those guys' mechanics. That's all I'll say about it.

I think we understand each other. I certainly respect guys that have a lot of experience, and honestly I've never worked with anyone with more experience than I have (I have 11 years in) that used bad enough mechanics that I didn't know what he was doing. I just think in general, a guy should do his best to respect the game he's working as best he can and use the proper mechanics as best he can. As long as there is a clear distinction between HS and college mechanics, we all should work the proper level. Not to mention the newer guys seeing the experienced guys shortcutting mechanics and thinking that's a cool way to do it and picking up those mechanics thinking they can get away with it. But I guess every association is different as far as what they expect people to do (I've worked in 5 different associations and so I know how different they can be) and you just have to do what you think is best for your association.

And I certainly have an appreciation for getting the calls right. That absolutely is the highest priority.

sleebo Mon Dec 08, 2003 08:34pm

First of all, I don't know a thing about what college supervisors tell their guys and gals regarding mechanics, as I am working on my 1st season of HS and my 2nd season overall. However, I am just about obsessed with officiating and all of its intricacies, so I watch the officials at every game I attend or watch on tv. It seems like the D1 guys have developed their own style and they do what works for them, yet still communicates strength. I haven't really noticed any two officials report fouls, etc. the exact same way. Also, D1 officials seem to signal exactly what happened on the play. For example, if a player gets hit in the head on the way up, they signal a blow to the head, not a "hack". Like I said, I don't know why they do it. All I know is they are where we all want to be so I'm not about to knock it...In fact, I would even go so far as to say D1 reporting mechanics may even be better than HS because they don't leave you stranded on an island as you go through shirt color, number, nature of foul, and result of play. D1 guys get to report as they walk toward the table and by the time they are even close to coaches, players, fans on the first few rows, they are done and back to surveying the floor.

mick Mon Dec 08, 2003 08:59pm

Re: This is a hobby.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
If I do enough of those games in a week, I have enough money to put my kids through school for the year....
Say wha'? :)
mick

JRutledge Mon Dec 08, 2003 11:47pm

You got that right.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
If I do enough of those games in a week, I have enough money to put my kids through school for the year....
Say wha'? :)
mick

If THEY, THEY DO enough games, THEY can put them their kids thru school.

Sorry, I am at my Mom's house and she was calling me every two seconds. And I was on my way to doing a basketball game tonight.

SAY WHAT IS RIGHT!!! :)

Peace




ChuckElias Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:40am

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
I think we understand each other. . .I just think in general, a guy should do his best to respect the game he's working as best he can and use the proper mechanics as best he can.

And I certainly have an appreciation for getting the calls right. That absolutely is the highest priority.

We agree comletely. :)

BTW, what keeps you moving so much that you've been in 5 associations in 11 years?!?!

ChuckElias Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:43am

Quote:

Originally posted by sleebo
D1 guys get to report as they walk toward the table
They don't really get to. Some of them do it, but like much of what we've been discussing, they're not really supposed to. "Walk and talk" reporting is an NBA mechanic and I think it's also used by NCAAW officials. But according to the manual, the men's officials are still supposed to hustle to the reporting area (or at least clear the players), stop, and then make their report.

Smitty Tue Dec 09, 2003 04:43pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
I think we understand each other. . .I just think in general, a guy should do his best to respect the game he's working as best he can and use the proper mechanics as best he can.

And I certainly have an appreciation for getting the calls right. That absolutely is the highest priority.

We agree comletely. :)

BTW, what keeps you moving so much that you've been in 5 associations in 11 years?!?!

Ahhh, glad you asked. I originally started in upstate New York where I grew up. As soon as I was able, I moved out (those winters are harsh) to Orange County California and reffed there for a couple years while working in the defense industry. Then a democrat was elected and the defense jobs dried up, and I ended up moving to Albuquerque, NM (The worst association of all I've worked) for a year. Couldn't stand it there and moved back to California, but to the Bay Area (South Bay) and worked there for a few years. Then I was in that gray area on the cusp of moving up to varsity ball. I felt that in order to get there I would have to "play the political games" and sacrifice too much of my values in order to "fit in" with the very arrogant varsity guys in that association. I felt burnt out so I quit. 5 years later here I am in Portland Oregon with a fresh outlook and thought I'd give it another go. Turns out this is by far the best association of all that I've worked and everyone I've met so far (varsity or novice) is fantastic to work with.

As a caveat to the editorial comments about the South Bay Association, I have never cared what level I worked - I just do this because I enjoy it. I felt that the majority of the varsity refs in that association thought they walked on water and often talked down to every non-varsity official they came in contact with. One game that I specifically remember just before I quit, my partner got a call wrong. It didn't affect the result of the game but it was a blown call. So be it. After the game, some guy in plain clothes comes down on the floor and gets right in the face of my partner reading him the riot act. So I jump in and ask him who the hell he thinks he is. He tells me he's one of the varsity refs for the next game. Never introduced himself as an official, never asked about the call, just jumped in my partner's face with nothing but cut-downs. Who needs that? It took the fun out of it for me, and so that's why I quit. I actually recommend anyone who feels a little burnt or isn't having the fun they once had to take a year or two off. My mechanics are surprisingly still sharp and I feel great. I find myself loving it again.

Rich Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:59am

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I only work high school games. I don't work college games or pay much attention to college mechanics. I know that the best games I have are with a partner who is on the same page as me and I know exactly what he's doing whenever he blows the whistle. If my partner starts using mechanics I am not familiar with, it's only going to cause confusion and hesitancy on my part trying to figure out what he's got. I don't care if a guy is new or has dozens of years experience, if he uses funky mechanics it's only going to hurt my game as his partner.

[Edited by Smitty on Dec 8th, 2003 at 04:31 PM]

I'll admit that sometimes I don't put my hand up before pointing on an out of bounds call. When I work with my one partner that works mainly college games, I'm even worse.

The purpose of mechanics is to be able to communicate to the participants and the people watching. When I get a bit excited and bang my hips on a block, can anyone honestly say that they don't know what I'm calling?

When I blow my whistle and point downcourt, how many timers don't stop the clock? It's an idiotic, extraneous mechanic that has no usefulness at all.

HS mechanics are different because some official or administrator LIKES being different. There's no reason a college crew couldn't work a HS game with HS rules and use ALL college mechanics. Most observers would know EXACTLY what was called by those officials.

If you guys want to hang your hats on this garbage, feel free. I want a partner with a patient whistle and sound judgement and outstanding communication skills with mechanics good enough to let me know what he's calling. Whether he puts his hand up before pointing down the court means precious little to me.

Rich

mick Thu Dec 11, 2003 07:14am

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I only work high school games. I don't work college games or pay much attention to college mechanics.

HS mechanics are different because some official or administrator LIKES being different. There's no reason a college crew couldn't work a HS game with HS rules and use ALL college mechanics. Most observers would know EXACTLY what was called by those officials.

If you guys want to hang your hats on this garbage, feel free. I want a partner with a patient whistle and sound judgement and outstanding communication skills with mechanics good enough to let me know what he's calling. Whether he puts his hand up before pointing down the court means precious little to me.

Six times, in one game, a partner goes table side to report a foul and stayed there.
Four times, partner stayed at Center opposite rather than replace reporting partner.
Once, partner tried to force a technical foul throw-in at POI instead of division line opposite.

In each case of the eleven cases, another official was affected. In all but one case, both partners were affected.

There is a reason for using proper mechanics.

I'll bet my mask, Rich, that you will not tolerate softball mechanics on the big diamond. ;)

mick



Rich Thu Dec 11, 2003 09:04am

I really didn't have reporting and rotating in mind, Mick.

I'll let you in on a little secret, though. I worked with a guy a few weeks ago in a 3-whistle HS game who wanted to go tableside cause he calls 90% college games. We did it as a crew the entire game. I loved it, BTW. I work with some guys who don't want to "long switch" in a 2-whistle game or who want to stay in position if the trail calls a foul in the frontcourt rather than complete an awkward switch after reporting. I do whatever my partner wants to do unless he defers to me. Then we go by the book as I think it is EASIER to do things by the book than to remember crew-specific exceptions. Not better, just easier.

So be it -- I am flexible enough to do whatever my partner wants. Last thing I want is to have an argument with a partner who wants to do things a different way.

My favorite partner? The guy that switches on every foul.

Baseball is no different, Mick -- we pregame before every game so I know what mechanics differences there are between us. Most of us work strictly pro mechanics in baseball (HS and college games -- although I've ordered the CCA Manual for baseball so I know what they want in case my conferences work those mechanics). There is no such stigma on baseball officials as there seems to be coming from the basketball officials.

Here's a question for the baseball umpires: In a HS game, who covers third base on a bases empty triple? Now look in the NFHS manual for what they have to say. But nobody in baseball is so anal about FED mechanics.

I was reading the incresingly irrelevant Referee magazine a few months ago where their basketball article spent a long time talking about how using college mechanics (or non-approved mechanics) signifies a bad attitude. In the next breath, Referee suggests that the trail official (in 2-whistle) cover the sideline opposite above the FT line extended because that area is in the official's primary. Many officials use this in WI (imagine that), and I think the coverage is idiotic. If we're going to do that, then the trail should have the baseline over to the near lane line since that area is in the trail's primary as well. But I adapt.

And yes, I would get annoyed at BB umpires working SB mechanics -- pretty hard to call the game from behind the diamond :)

Rich

DownTownTonyBrown Thu Dec 11, 2003 03:53pm

Another point
 
(that I've made here a few times before and) that I think can be made here again is that the mechanics of making a call and communicating that call to your partner, the players, and the crowd is simple. I say simple because you have the great example in your book - you've got a picture of every mechanic. Your arm is supposed to be here; your fingers are like such; this signal comes first and then follow it with this one. This is simple. You've got a precise definition of what each mechanic should look like and there are only a few of them to learn. What could be more simple. Everyone can memorize these few signals.

The mechanics are straight-forward. As several have pointed out though, it is the judgment and social skills that are most important to the game. Communication mechanics has a crucial role but it is judgement and your ability to interact with coaches and players that make you the outstanding official.

Do you make the needed calls and pass on the unnecessary ones? Can you sell it to the crowd and the coaches and the players that you have intentionally passed on an obvious call and have no one be upset at you? Can you wisely use your judgement to allow a player to work through an obvious foul, continue, and score? Can you communicate with the irate coach and not get emotionally involved? Can you assess a technical foul without breaking your fingers? da-dala-dala....

The physical action of properly performing mechanics is a simple requirment of an official. It is the judgement and social skills that make the top quality official.... so even if you don't portray the perfect by-the-book mechanics you can still communicate and you can still be a great official!

There's my quarter (two bits) :D


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