I had a sittuation last night that I have never ran into in 12 years of officiating. Between 3rd and 4th quarter after the 1st buzzer a coach sends a player in to sub. I catch the coach and tell him the the player has to wait till the 1st dead ball as she reported too late and that I needed the girl who finished the last quarter to come back into the game. The coach told me that he couldn't do that as the player who she was subbing for would then have played in too many quarters.
I could only think of three options that they had....

1. Keep that girl in and start the quarter with a T ( although I am not sure that I can keep a girl in knowing that she played in too many quarters).

2. Start the quarter with 4 players and the sub could could enter on the next dead ball.

3. Coach could call a time out to be able to get the girl checked into the game.

I think these are my only 3 options.. Can anyone else think of any more????

The practical one. Quietly allow the sub.

Rich

I'm with Rich.
If the coach has that player inelligible (<I>for any reason</I>), don't force him to break a rule.
mick

The best response (IMHO) is "OK, coach. She can come in. Please be more aware of these situations in the future. Thanks."

I think this is an excellent question because it involves a game management issue.

I know people that would assess a technical foul or make that player play. Technically, by rule, it may be the right call. However, IMHO, as far as game management is concerned it is the worst thing to do.

I had a player designated to start the second half in my game last week who didn't get off the trainer's table in time (he was getting taped). The coach came to me (I was the U near his bench with the R at midcourt) and told me the situation. I told him that he could definitely substitute someone else in at that point. By the time I got that sentence out the original kid was coming toward the bench, ready to play. The coach thanked me. A small thing, sure, but small things add up when it comes to building a good relationship on the floor.

The spirit of the rule is to keep coaches from putting in last-minute subs to gain an unfair advantage over the other team. Keeping that in mind, you really should allow the sub in this situation.

Rich

I was talking with an official who said his partner got into the same situation last night. I think the Time Out or starting with 4 are probably correct in the rule book, but personally I do not think they are trying to break the intent of the rule. I would allow the sub. I think you cause a lot less problems that way.

This is one of those places where external policies on playing time cause problems with how you normally do things in NF. Definitely allow the sub.

This comes from league rules and has no official stipulation at the game management level. The penalty would be assessed through the league. I don't think you can argue assessing a T for using a disqualified player since the player was not disqualified by NFHS rules.

I'm with Mark. Quietly let this go with a whispered warning.

I agree. Let the sub in. Common sense and not violating the spirit and intent of the sub rule.
Z

Here is what I did.....
 

Last night when this happened it was about a 30 point game so I did let the sub come in and told both coaches why I allowed it to happen that way. Both coaches were cool about with it.

I agree with all of your answers but please let me know if you would change your answers if this would happen in a close game in the last minute of the state championship game????????

Re: Here is what I did.....
 

How would it be possible for a player to play in too many quarters in a state championship game?

Z

the coach has made a mistake, you tell him/her to take a timeout and correct his or her mistake. You do not change the rules of the game because a coach made mistake.

Great question Z..... You got me on that one.... Ok My bad.. lets say it was just a close game regular season.

Choose your battles
 

There is no reason not to just get the sub in and move on. Worry about the things that really matter. This is not something to get worked up about or to get really technical about. If a coach just wanted to sub for the sake of subbing, having them wait until the next dead ball is the right thing to do, and that is what would normally happen. This is a sub that is forced by an external policy not addressed in NFHS rules.

What happens when the opposing coach (home team) and the official scorer (also from home team) are making a big deal of the situation and know by rule a T must be acessed. I too, would go with the preventative maintenance in most situations but what about in the above situation?

Re: Choose your battles
 

True, but the only legal way to allow the sub is for the team to take a TO. Why not just tell the coach that? That way the coach can decide whether to burn the TO, since as Clay pointed out, it's the coach's own fault for being in the situation.

Re: Re: Choose your battles
 

Chuck nailed it!! That is the way we handled the situation I just posted. The coach thought a technical should have been accessed as soon as she reported but I told him she was not a player in that quarter until the ball becam live and since the TO allowed a sub, he was out of luck. he seemed to understand that...

One of our divisions has a participation rule that says each player must play one full quarter without interuption, and must sit out one entire quarter (you must have at least 7 to start game for it to work). If you don't abide by the rule, it becomes a forfeit. If a player shows up late, it is conceivable that the coach looks down the bench and sees him/her for the first time (late players tend to sneak in to avoid getting yelled at) and realizes that he/she has to get into the beginning of the quarter or face a forfeit. If it happened to me, I would probably accept having to burn a TO, but I would be really upset at having to wait for the next dead ball and thus break the participation rule. That would be even more harsh than getting T'd up (which I might earn if I wasn't allowed to get the player in the game).

The official scorer isn't going to be making any deal about it. I would tell the other coach, however, that he would be given the same consideration if he were in the same situation. After that, the ball would be in play.

Rich

Rich:

Had this happen in a game earlier this year and IT WAS the official scorer who made sure the home coach knew about it and exactly what the penalty should be for it. It was he that kept me from simply bringing in the sub and quietly explaning the situation to the offending coach.

That scorer wouldn't prevent anything -- that's what I meant. He can tell the coach all he wants, but he's just a scorer. They grow on trees.

Bring in the sub and put the ball in play. Hard for the coach to continue complaining if the ball is in play.

Rich

Whatchgonna do?
Ya try to be a nice guy....
mick

Re: Re: Re: Choose your battles
 

Why is it a T?

I had no idea that our own Mark Dexter was a sapling! :)

The OhioHSAA uses a quarter rule in basketball. A high school player (freshmen, sophomore, junior, senior) is allowed only 80 quarters of play during the regular season with a maximum of five quarters per day (in a freshmen/jr. varsity/varsity tripleheader a freshmen could play one quarter two quarters in the freshmen game, one quarter in the jr. varsity game, and two in the varsity game; a soph., jr., or sr. could play a total of five quarters between the jr. varsity and varsity games). While NFHS rules consider any overtime period to be an extension of the fourth quarter, the OhioHSAA also considers any overtime period of the varsity game to be an extension of a player's fifth quarter if the player has already played five quarters that day.

Having spewed out all of that gobbledy gook, I would have to say that by rule, that coach is going to have to burn a timeout if he wants to change players. But the real problem is that if the coach decides he does not want to burn a timeout and is willing to take the technical foul for using an ineligible player (and in Ohio the foul is a flagrant technical foul for playing six quarters and the player would be ejected from the game and disqualified for two more games) I have trouble knowingly letting an ineligible player enter the game.

Since quarter rules are uniquely a StateHSAA rule, I would think that each state is going to have to develope its own casebook plays for the situation being discussed in this thread.

My 20 dinar.

98.767% of the world has no idea that the ub has to be there prior to the horn. 57% of the officiating community forgets we have the rule....

The rule was put into play to keep the game going and not have a ton of subs after the horn....

So get her in and get the game going... No way is anyone going to buy a T... Force him to burn a time out? Naw...

Dont waste time expalining it to anyone...Get her in get the game moving... If the opposing coach pisses and moans tell him he can sub a player after the horn the next time... but he'll be doing that after we have been up and down the floor 6 times...

Are we our own worst enemy?

Re: Re: Here is what I did.....
 

Let's see... Nasty blizzard cancels first two days of tourney, games are re-scheduled so that semi-finals, and finals are both same day. No one remembers to make an exception for the five-quarters rule.

Okay, it's a stretch.

Freshman Girls B Tourny. These teams were assemebeld for girls who we'rent getting enough play time and they're a few select tournys for them this season. Well.... half-way though first quater I notice an extra girl on the bench - Coach has her at the table - book says "shes not in there" (very quietly too - usually the book hollars something like that) I asked the coach how the girl was left out and she said - her grandmother was in the hospital this morning and she wasnt on the bus so i forgot about her and yeah- its a tech so just give it to me." Very quietly i tlel the book to add her in the book. the other coacch kinna knew what was going on and just kinna gave me a nod of approval at what I had done. At the end of the game as I was walking to the table the other teams coach came up to me and said" when you get to the varsity level and u need a pref list, let me know because that was a good thing you did." Jokingling she added "If i wasnt so impressed by your officiating I woulda been raising hell" -

I agree with an earlier post... pick you battles.

I do realize I should have given the technical to the team because it is my job to enforce the rules mandated to us by the NFHS and the local associations... but yeah

The cynical old b@stards around here might remind you that if you believe them when they say you done good you gotta believe them when they say you suck.

BTW, you done good. :)

I think that the thread is getting away from the problem of the original posting, and that is that there are some states that have a quarter rule.

1) Head Coach A realized that he had a player, A1, that could not play the rest of the game due to his state's quarters played rule. Unfortunately, he realized this when it was too late, by rule, to have A6, substitute for A1.

2) The best way to look at this problem is to treat it no differently than if we were notified by the Scorer just before the start of the quarter that A1 had five fouls. The timeout period between the third and fourth quarters are over, but we are going to have Team A replace A1 with A6. There is no penalty involved. We need to remember that Coach A was trying to do the correct thing by replacing a player who he knew to be no longer eligible to play in the game.

Okay, I'll play.
 

Which, ... or both of the above?
mick

Re: Okay, I'll play.
 

The gobbledy gook was a quick off the cuff rant on the subject, but after careful review the decision on the field is being changed. Have a good boys' season Mick.

MTD, Sr.

I don't know how you would get a technical foul for too many quarters. That is usually a state or local rule. I'd be concerned about the team forfeiting the game later if the league or state had a rule about quarters. I don't think it is the game officials' jurisdiction to penalize such, unless you can find it in the rule book for me. I'd tell the coach to use 4 or use another sub and the consequent penalty.

Apparently, Ohio wants it's refs involved in this situation. In Oregon, we are told the opposite. We have a quarters rule, and refs are to steadfastly refuse to pay any attention. If the opposing coach of a team with an "over-limits" player wants to make an issue of it, he does it with the league or the state, and the offending team must forfeit that game.

Around here, letting a sub in after the horn on a time out is NBD. I'd let her in.

Re: Re: Here is what I did.....
 

The referee allows the game to go into overtime? ;)

I'm with Hawk's Coach, pick only those battles that will improve the game
 

Back when I worked in a grocery store, we had a huge sign over the checkstands that outlined our check policy. It was there for one reason and one reason only...to allow us to refuse a check when we needed to. To enforce it strictly would have driven away loyal, honest customers.

It seems to me that we're haggling over a similar situation. We've got a rule that is there to help the official curb substitution abuses. Do we really want to force the issue and penalize a coach whose genuine intent is to keep within the rules? Would forcing the coach to burn a time out or accept a T improve the game? Would it punish an unsporting act or correct an unfairly gained advantage? Would it empower the players to determine the outcome of the game? Or would it merely distract from the game with anal-retentive administrivia?

If you knowingly allow a player to play extra quarters, you may have to deal with the opposing coach and school who may bring the issue to the league commissioner or whomever. I believe you notify the coach of the need to use another player and suffer the consequences. If he/she chooses to use the player in question, that will be their problem. Rules are rules and the state or league instituted the rule for a reason. Don't knowingly break the rule. Inform the coach and let them decide. Schools who knowingly break the rule are not administering their programs in a sportsmanlike manner.


Also, the OT is considered an extension of the 4th quarter. It is not another quarter.