If your partner is an arrogant, egotistical, SOB
he can ruin a great game with just one call.

Case in point: San Diego State versus University of San Diego on Wednesday night.
Last minute of game with narrow difference in score:

Dave Libbey (he of several Final Fours and he who runs a basketball officiating camp)has a no-call, for which the USD coach comments: "That was a foul, Dave."

No profanity. No attempt at embarrassment. Game on the line.
and BAM .... here comes the T that changes the complexity of the whole game and ruins it for partners and players.

This kind of crap ruins it for those who understand the game
and gives reason for coaches to lose respect for those
who actually develop relationships and provide service.

Ummmm.....says you. Which of the schools did you attend?

Rich

Any chance that's not an exact quote, Barry? Any chance there was something ealier in the game that made this comment the "final straw"? What are the chances, realistically, that a Final Four NCAA official is going to T anybody for that comment?

I was not born, raised, or schooled on the west coast.
I have lived in San Diego since 1979 and have known this
official since 1980.
I also know the personality of the USD coach.

He has always been quick to T coaches.

IMHO he thinks that NOBODY should challenge him or
even think about questioning a call (or no-call).

If someone does, look out!

If Libbey is like you say, he wouldn't get hired and he wouldn't call Final Fours.

And if he is like you say, the coach should know better, right?

So, you were his partner for this game?

You caught that too? He did start the post with, If your partner is...

opinions from history
 

I know how this official operates
as I have known him for over 20 years.

This is not the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 100th time
that Libbey has been quick to T a coach.

IMHO he took the game away from the players.

He considers himself to be bullet proof as he has
aligned himself with enough assignors that
they overlook many of his bad decisions,
because he is a friend and has been to the Final Four.

Being a friend and/or having worked "big time" games does NOT make you right all the time.

Ask his co-workers or former partners.

Maybe you'll come away with a different opinion.

I have attended one of Dave Libbey's camps, talked to him about officiating philosophies and watched him work numerous PAC-10 games as well as other national games like the final four over the last several years.

Barry, I must say that I disagree with your opinion of Dave Libbey. In my opinion, he is one of the best officials working D1 and has been for several years. I have never thought of him as "quick to T a coach".

Well, this proves a whole lot.
 

I am glad to see that you have an opinion. But since you are a ref, why come here and call out a fellow official, when none of us where there? You are giving what seems to be a one sided account of the situation. Did it ever occur to you, your opinion could be wrong? Or your opinion is not held by most? If I search hard enough, anyone can find someone that has something bad to say about another person/official. So at least I will take your opinion as just that, and we can move on now.

Peace

Looks to me like an axe is being ground. This is a varied forum, but not the place for disparaging other officials. Take it up with him yourself, or let it go.

bossref,

You sound like a fan. As in fanatic who got carried away with the emotion of a game.

You also sound like someone who feels that the only way to make it to the top is to kiss butt (I think you called it "aligning").

You also criticized an official on a public ref forum when you really have no clue of what led up to the T.

Emotional, full of excuses and critical. IMHO, it sounds like it's you that isn't really the "right stuff" to be a ref rather than the official you vented about.

Z

As usual ,the only two people who really know what happened are probably the "T"er and the "T"ee.

Here's the story:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports...4sullivan.html

Bossref,

Be careful who you call arrogant,egotistical S.O.B. in this forum. 98% of the guys in here will take it personally.

Thanks for the link, JR. I particularly liked this quote: "You have to ask him, and I know he won't talk to you," Holland said. "But you have to ask him where that's coming from. I didn't swear at him. I didn't do anything. All I said was, 'Dave, that was a foul,' and it was."

Easy to get into a debate in public with a guy who you know is going to refuse interviews. A guy that you know will, on principal, not defend himself in public.

snaqwells,

My point excatly. Thanks for the response

If he's doing D1 games, then he must be doing something right. You shouldn't be critisizing him.

Answer the question, bossref.

You were his partner for this game?

Since you have the quote word for word, does that mean you heard what the coach said, or that you read what the coach said he said? Were you there? Did you personally hear everything? And do you support one of the programs, or were you a neutral participant?

I will say that I went to the student newspaper for the winning team and they called the "T" questionable, and Steve Fisher's somewhat obscure comment seems to back that up (if we can just figure out the context - the quote isn't specific enough).

The fact that an official has reached a certain level of game doesn't mean that we can't point out when he makes errors. Nobody is claiming to be perfect, but it makes no sense to wear blinders and ignore an obvious mistake.

Chuck

It is a strong possibility that Mr Libbey
went overboard and may eventually be reprimanded or
punished by the league/conference.

A I was not at the game, but did see the
replay on television.
B. An official in attendance said that Mr Libbey
displayed an expression of "I got you!" when calling the T
and then he looked over to a group of high school
officials looking for their approval.
C. He always has to be "in charge".

My original post was made so that other officials
can learn from his mistake.
IMHO He did not use good judgment in this case.

Everyone in San Diego kisses his A$$ because he has the power to give you a reference or completely shut the door
to an official's advancement through the college ranks.

I know this firsthand.

Since 1980 only Ron Filson (didn't go too far), Tom Wood
(a very good official), and now Mike Greenstein (with Libbey's help) have gone from HS to D1.
Others have been good enough, but never received any support from the MAN.

He (Libbey) has acted as if he is pure (in public)
and has acted as if he wants to help promote good young San Diego officials, but has really not done much.

His status has never been challenged because he gives quick (or even unjustified) technicals because
he has been the most powerful official around here for 20 years and he has a reputation.

Maybe he should come on down from his throne
and act like an unbiased, objective, sympathetic,
calm, and professional official that everyone
expects him to be.

Thanks for your insight.

And there's the axe.

If indeed this person has that much power, than badmouthing him isn't a good idea. If word about your post ever reaches him, i'd say the door for you would be SLAMMED pretty quickly.

Fortunately for me, I am very near the end of a
30+ year career as an official.

I have not been involved in "organized" basketball
for several seasons.

I couldn't care less what this man thinks
of my opinions.

But yes, if I were trying to climb the ladder,
it wouldn't have been wise to voice my opinions.

Only a guess, but maybe this already happened, some time ago...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bossref
Fortunately for me, I am very near the end of a
30+ year career as an official.

Fortunately for all of us.

I have not been involved in "organized" basketball
for several seasons.

Fortunately for all of us.

Z

I bet you that if you were in my shoes,
you would feel very much the same as I do.

So unless you know me, your comments
are unwarranted.

Wait to see how this situation washes out.
You might be surprised.

BTW I worked at the D1 level (women)
for a few years without any assistance
from Mr Libbey. and if you knew the circumstances
of our relationship, you would probably have good
reasons to feel the same as I do.

The first and only rule in the officials "unofficial" manual is: Never speak to the press.

Some officials will issue a technical foul if it appears you are questioning their integrity. We have all heard the proverbial, "Call em' both ways, ref." That comment alone could be the basis for a technical foul.

Regarding this particular incident, the assessor and
assignor for that conference will be reviewing the game with the referee involved.

My turn to make a few points.

First, yahoo.com has archived game audio of this game from the USD radio network. I'm at work and can't listen to it now, but when I get home, I'll load it up--it could be interesting.

I'm not going to defend Dave Libbey. I'm not going to ostracize him either. Dave Libbey is a VERY VERY GOOD official on the west coast, who has earned more respect than any other official out there, with the possible exception of Dick Cartmell.

Libbey is very mechanically sound as well. Some guys when they get older, such as Tim Higgins, lose their crisp mechanics, but it doesn't cost them games, because they're still great officials and have earned the right to be doing high level games.

As an unbiased observer in this case, I will say that it seems that Libbey does pull the trigger a little sooner than some other guys. He does tend to have an aura about him of demanding authority. However, in many cases, I feel that's a good thing, to let everyone know you're in charge.

As far as him giving the technical, we're only going to hear one side of that story, and if you weren't within 15 feet of the USD sideline for the whole game, you probably don't know the whole story. So it comes down to

1. Maybe he screwed up
2. Maybe he didn't

Yep, officials make mistakes. I've never seen a perfectly called game. But then, I've never seen a perfectly coached game (apologies to Jimmy V and Rollie Massimino).

So he's got a quick trigger. I don't have a problem with that. Officials should give more technicals if they are warranted. Remember Duke's Dohntay Jones dunking a ball last year and then doing push-ups on his defender? No technical on that one. Remember Indiana's Mike Davis running on the court at Bert Smith? Smith didn't give Davis a technical, and everyone said what great composure he had. That's exactly right, but would anyone have argued if Smith HAD dinged him? That's my point.

.
Officials should give more technicals if they are warranted. Remember Duke's Dohntay Jones dunking a ball last year and then doing push-ups on his defender? No technical on that one. Remember Indiana's Mike Davis running on the court at Bert Smith? Smith didn't give Davis a technical, and everyone said what great composure he had. That's exactly right, but would anyone have argued if Smith HAD dinged him? That's my point.


As officials, we do not give as many technicals as we should.

As a new member to Officials Forum, and a young official (4th year), I was eager to find out how not to screw up a good game
since I have done my share at the HS and D3 JV level (am I big-timin' by sayin' D3 JV?).

What I never expected was mentioning of the offical's name, let alone the game played.

Whether or not we see - or think we see - questionable calls
or actions (on or off-court) from better, veteran, higher-ranking, etc. officials that lead us to ponder their professionalism, NEVER does it justify crucifying them, especially in a public forum.

As a high school teacher, and at times as an official, I let kids know it's okay to vent. Life isn't fair. Why do the vets harp on us young guys about crisp mechanics, but some of them are counting with gimpy arms or doin' a little jig with their traveling call?

Life ain't fair, but what is important is how we accept the challenges or blows and try to deal with them in a positive way. But NEVER should we bring down another person to try to lift ourselves up.

Peace and a good season to all (hoops and holidays)

Hmmmm, now there's a coupla interesting statements:

1)Don't crucify officials in a public forum.Especially veteran, higher ranking officials.We shouldn't ponder the professionalism of those veteran officials.
2)Some veteran officials harp about mechanics, but count with gimpy arms and do a little jig with their travelling call. In other words, their mechanics are bad.

Gee, and statement #2 was made in a public forum,too.

Physician, heal thyself!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 7th, 2003 at 08:55 AM]

JurassicRef, You caught me and rightfully so, as my words weren't fully explained.

Please note that "some" preceded "veteran. It is the veterans
that I enjoy watching because they bring insight and years of experience that we newbies want and need to hear.

Moreover, it was simply an example of a frustration heard and felt by others. However, I realize that by no means makes them incompetent. I have seen those same officials communicate much better with coaches, players, demonstrate impecable judgement and more.

What I perhaps should have included was that, depite my frustration, there is more to the picture. There is alot that
I need to work on, there is more to the picture, and I can't dwell on my judgements of others.

That is what I was trying to say, but didn't communicate too
well.

Thanks for catching me and I didn't mean to offend.

hoof in the mouth, MtnGoat

Welcome to the forum,Mountain Goat.

Kep posting. We're all here to learn. Even the veterans!