I've been asked to present 5 or 6 oddball plays or situations for discussion at our next board meeting. We've had some interesting things come up in the last couple of months. I'm just not sure if they want very technical questions about the rules, or just unusual situations. So which ones do you think would be most suitable and also most interesting for a open-meeting style discussion? Any nominations?

Player A1 (or any other player) is fouled while A1 is shooting at the other team's basket.


A thousand and one intricasies of in-bounding the ball.
1. Inbounder must maintain the throw-in spot, but has not travelled if he does not.
2. Defensive player may take the ball from the inbounder if the ball is inside the OOB plane.
3. Defensive player may not however, reach across the OOB plane.
4. A player on either team may gain position of the ball in either the front court or back court.
5. Etc.




This one just for fun:
Explain how a player may dribble from the backcourt into the front court (while hopping on one foot) all the way to the baseline and back into the backcourt. I wish I could remember who to give credit to for that one, but I seem to recall rainmaker wanted to be there to see it if it did happen.

Here's a couple
 

Some of the hardest things to understand for me especially as a young ref but even now:

Jump ball situations can be very tricky

Also, alternating possession things such as when it starts, what about a foul or a violation etc., when doing an AP throw-in.

FT's - what if a team is not ready who gets what?
T or violation, or can it be resuming play etc.,

We had a very unusual play the other night with a new coach. We're shooting FT's and he wants to conference his team but his opponents are shooting the FT's.
What should you do, what can you do etc.,

Thanks
David

Chuck:

It has always been my belief that using unusual and highly improbable plays are the best for teaching because it requires an official to know the definitions, and how to apply the definitions. I put a premium on knowing definitions because knowledge of definitions is the foundation of applying the rules to any situation.

MTD, Sr.

Re: Here's a couple
 

As long as he has two players on the blocks, the other three players are irrelevant.

The two that came up in our chapter meeting last night were ...
 

1. Jump ball, one or both jumpers tap ball, ball bounces inside center circle, one jumper grabs ball. All the old refs wanted to call a violation - wonder if this was a rule change somewhere along the line.

2. FT, B1 along the lane violates, A1 (shooter) tosses airball. Now this can be called two ways, depending on the interpretation of the ref. Disconcertion by B1 will give A1 another toss. No Disconcertion will be a double violation - go with AP arrow (on last toss only).

Give 'em this one that we talked about before:

A1,who has player and team control in the front court,passes to A2. Defender B1 reaches in and deflects the ball into the back court-where it rolls almost to the end line. A1 chases down the loose ball,is the first to touch it and bats it along the end line. A2 now picks the ball up and starts dribbling.
Question:1) Is this a backcourt violation? 2)When does the 10 second count begin? :D

I've always found the first 20 seconds of the game the most challenging -

- jump ball admin & violations
- who's going what way again? on a quick OOB
- quick usually unexpectd fouls
- etc etc

Probably because we only do this once per game, all the rest we've seen thousands of times. Also lets you talk about concentration/court awareness. Another topic along those lines might be dealing with less than the perfect table: shot clock, game clock, book keeper.


Hope this helps

You tell a coach that you passed on a foul/violation to his team's advantage.
He is appeased.
The other coach hears you.

I'm with Dan about the beginning of the game.

Also, I think the administrative stuff is the most difficult to keep track of because the rules are so convoluted, and because it doesn't happen very often. There is also the most variation in this category from locale to locale. Some associations want their folks to ignore everything, others want every little detail called, and everything in between. But it's most important to get these details correct, because they are going to be noticed and remembered by everyone involved.

Re: Re: Here's a couple
 

No, he conferenced with his entire team. So we had a shot, a violation and then he was not ready still, so we had to give a T for delay.

First time, but the coach is young (should know better he's been as asst. coach in college for four years)

Thanks
David

Here's an oldie but a goodie. You are officiating a game on the deck of a cruise ship. A1 has just received an inbound pass in his backcourt and you have started your 10 second count. During the count, the ship crosses the international date line and it is now yesterday!

Does A1 get an additional 24 hours to get the ball into frontcourt?

Re: Re: Re: Here's a couple
 

Unless this was after a TO, you were incorrect.

You should have requested that he place two players in the lower spaces. If he refused, it's an immediate T for delay of game.

The violation for not filling the lower spots is part of the resumption-of-play procedure.

On the floor 20 minutes before game, standing at half court. Look over to the visiting team and the assistant coach is doing layups with the team. Is this legal? What if he dunks?

I heard a story about a veteran varsity official who did the following:

A timeout after a B goal. A comes back and is properly told that they can run the endline. A player passes it inbounds where it is deflected out of bounds by a B player. Official allows A to run the baseline again. Whoops.

Rich

Was the deflection by B1 a kick? Was the subsequent OOB spot still on the endline?

I see where you are going MARK:

If the subsequent throw in is on the end line then A IS ABLE TO run the endline again.FED 7-5-7.

This right is reatined after any violation (kick etc.) or a common foul (before bonus of course).

[Edited by MN 3 Sport Ref on Dec 4th, 2003 at 03:57 PM]

These rights are only retained if that violation or foul occurs before the ball is legally touched. If the ball is legally touched then the foul or violation occurs, it is a designated sport throw-in. There are only two violations that I can think of that can be committed by the defense that matter: kicking and elbows. Throw-in plane violations have always retained the right to run the endline.

To the original question. . .
 

Chuck
These are some things that I have seen happen and refs don't consistently call correctly.

1. The b/c where A1 passes in f/c, B1 taps toward b/c, A2 touches but does not control in f/c, then recovers in b/c. This is b/c, but often not called as a b/c violation, with the most common reason given that A wasn't in control when it went b/c.

2. The non-b/c where A1 on baseline inbounds to A2, ball is too high and A2 deflects into b/c and then recovers. This is often called a b/c violation, even though A never has team control due to throw-in.

3. Fumbling, stumbling catch - A1 on the move, receives pass but does not catch cleanly, takes three steps while bobbling ball, jump stops and grabs ball firmly - not a travel, but many think it is.

You could modify the situation to have the ball bobbled for a couple of steps, dropped (no control), the grabbed with two hands with both feet on floor, then a dribble is started - again no violation but you could prompt for DD or travel to see if there are any takers.

Don't we just assume that the designated sport is basketball? What are the other choices?

I had the same question
 

It was NOT part of a time out. If it was, then we could have used the resuming play.

I looked in the books for two days and could find nothing different or a way to handle the situation.

Like I said, I've never seen this before in my 10 years of calling.

But I was administering the FT, my partner told him coach we need two guys. He continued to conference, so I continued without him.

So, you're saying we should have given the T then?

The only thing I can find in the books is under Rule 9 and it says give the FT shooter a T if he delays coming to the line. But it says nothing about the two guys on the bottom blocks.

I don't have my book with me, but I did find in Rule 9 under violations (FT's) where it does say if a team continues to delay though give the T.

So I'm thinking administer, and they are then violating.

Then you give them a chance to get in place, and if they don't then give the T.

But I'm open to ideas.

Thanks
David

Re: I had the same question
 

It was NOT part of a time out. If it was, then we could have used the resuming play.

I looked in the books for two days and could find nothing different or a way to handle the situation.

[/B][/QUOTE]Mr. Jenkins is correct. Read casebook play 10.1.5SitC(b). It's your exact play, and it calls for an immediate T upon refusal to fill the bottom 2 spaces.

Re: Re: I had the same question
 

I didn't even know my dad posted on this forum. ;)

Re: To the original question. . .
 

Yeah, I kicked this one in a soph game the other night.
Sorry, coach.

Thanks guys
 

Mr. Jenkins is correct. Read casebook play 10.1.5SitC(b). It's your exact play, and it calls for an immediate T upon refusal to fill the bottom 2 spaces. [/B][/QUOTE]

thanks for the help. Now in 10 years when I have it happen again I'll know the correct ruling. (g)

That's why I like this forum, I can be educated a little more every day.

Thanks
David

What were you doing on the floor 20 minutes before the game?

I was in a kindlier, gentler mood. They usually come on me in the middle of the night, and last for..oh..about 7 minutes. When I wake up in the morning and read what I wrote(written? wroth?), I usually can't look at myself in a mirror.

That's what happened in this case. :D

ncaa maybe?

Kinda like...uhmmm...well...you know....

I was in a kindlier, gentler mood. They usually come on me in the middle of the night, and last for..oh..about 7 minutes.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Kinda like...uhmmm...well...you know....

[/B][/QUOTE]My motto is "Waste not,want not". :D

What are all of the situations where you can run the endline?
 

What are the scenarios where you can run the endline? Also, if the player runs the endline when he's not allowed, what's the mechanics? Is it considered traveling?
One more thing. When you are allowed to run the endline are you also able to pass it to another teammate who is out of bounds along the endline. I believe I've seen this done before in College ball.

Re: What are all of the situations where you can run the endline?
 

After a made or awarded basket, or a foul or violation before the throw-in ends following such a situation.

Quote:

Also, if the player runs the endline when he's not allowed, what's the mechanics? Is it considered traveling?

Blow the whistle, point to the spot, award the ball to the other team. It's not travelling

Quote:

One more thing. When you are allowed to run the endline are you also able to pass it to another teammate who is out of bounds along the endline. I believe I've seen this done before in College ball.

Yes.

Re: Re: What are all of the situations where you can run the endline?
 

By foul or violation before the throw-in ends, you mean of course by the team not throwing the ball in. In other words, the team inbounding the ball does NOT lose this privilege if the other team fouls or violates before the throw-in ends.

Also, I assume the same goes for a made free throw. The team awarded the ball on the throw-in after a made free throw can run the endline.

Thanks!