1-1/2 min. left in a 1 pt JV girls game. Free throw made, ball handed to A1, A1 kneels down to tie shoe, co-official (U) ask if she wants a time out, she says NO, she is eventually called for a 5 sec. violation. (VS coach) not JV coach steps out on floor during time out and drills officials trying to to get (R) to go against the (U). Officials stayed calm, moments later, (U) goes to VS coach and admits he made a mistakes. I know we shouldn't have allowed the VS coach to get involved. Next the VS coach inquires about the call again, wants (R) to reverse call as a correctable error. I don't think play had resumed. I know we normally stop play on dead ball and allow/encourage players to tie shoes, but . . .
Q: Was this actually a bad call or just a mistake in judgment?
Q: If bad call, is it a correctable error by (R)?

First of all, I treat the varsity coach like an assistant during JV games. Therefore, he can come out and ask questions like, "where will the ball become live?", but if he wants to argue or demean me then he is getting a T. R cannot correct U's decission on this. Bad judgement? I don't think so. She should have tied her shoes after throwing it in or before the ball being handed. Since it was after a free throw, she could have had the official delay the ball becomeing live before the shot.

First, if I could jump on my soapbox...It is OUr responsibility to ensure that the contest is conducted in a safe manner. Personally, whether they request a quick TO or not, if there is a dead ball, I call an offical TO and I make them tie their shoes. I would rather be safe than sorry, and I would be upset if I knew they were untied and the kid hurt him/herself.

Second, in this situation, I don't see how you can over rule this play. 1) It is not a correctable error. 2) In that officials mind, he offered, then was refused a TO by the player. The Varsity coach should have SEEN the count by the official, and called a TO himself. It might be questionable, I bet that ref never does this again, and it probably "looked" bad, but I see nothing wrong rule wise with what happened, except I would have T'd up the V coach. Nothing ticks me off faster than a higher level coach who comes down a level and thinks he know all.

My new maxim is " I will listen to Batman, but I had better not hear Robin".

I agree with Brian - inject a little common sense into the situation. When the official saw the player stop to tie her shoe, he should have stopped the game. It is simple, effective, and prevents problems (and potential injuries). Of course, if this happens a few times with the same player, you should find another course of action - such as asking her to leave the game until she learns how to tie her shoes correctly. :)

Nothing irks ME more than an official who is so blinded by the rules that he can't use some common sense. I refereed a game once where my partner was thrown the ball by a player after a made basket. Instead of simply catching it and throwing it back to the player (the player was confused, obviously), he jumped out of the way! Continuing his 5-second count while the player chased the ball! ARGH!!! Fortunately, she got it in on time because if he had called a violation, we were going to have a problem.

I would have...
 

let her tie her shoe. It did not seem that she was "delaying".
IMO, the official, that asked her if she wanted a TO, just goofed. I, always during a dead ball, or lull (subjective), call an official's TO to fix a lace.
This is not a correctable error, by rule. It may have been fixed.
Perhaps the rules should be that all shoe bows be tied with a "Square Knot". ;)
mick

This is a great situation to see what partners do when a mistake is made. The crews I work with are so comfortable with each other that I would have no problem coming to my partner (s) and say "let her tie her shoe". I stop games fairly often when I see an unsafe situation. Untied shoe could be an accident looking for a place to happen. If that had been my game, I would not have tried to over turn my partner but I would have discussed it with him. Our crew has learned to leave whatever ego we have in the dressing room. Last night we had a difference of opinion has to who hit the ball last. My partner came to me told me what he saw, I thought he was wrong, it was my line, but I nodded to him and changed my call. I could have been wrong and he was 100% sure. By the way he was in great position to see what I may not have seen. No one said a word.

What?
 

I must be in the minority here, but I believe that the official did what was best. You cannot make up rules as you go along. If the player did not ask for a timeout, then none should be granted. You give the ball to the player, then if that player uses up the 5 seconds, too bad!!! It is not common sense to allow a player to tie their shoes. Are we going to allow players to stop play all the time because they need to tie there shoes?

I really don't see any harm in reinforcing safety during a dead ball. I'm not advocating stopping the game during play (like some rec league refs do around here) in a JV girls game, but you do need to take the level of play into account. Bottom line - if this happens once or twice in a game, no advantage/disadvantage occurs.

That is not safety
 

What has that have to do with safety? If you hand the ball to the player to throw the ball in, they cannot do whatever they want. They can call a timeout, but I am not stopping play in the middle of action for safety, unless by rule it is warranted. This is not that situation. If a kid looses his/her shoe during action of dribbling the ball, you do not stop play at that moment just so they can put back on their shoe. There has to be some other things at play. I think even asking if they want a timeout was a bit much. Safety is one thing, but lets not create safety concerns just because of a shoe not being tied.

If there is a dead ball why would you not make that player tie their shoe? Just because the rule book doesn't say you have to, it is common sense. If that kid take a face digger and loses 3 teeth, you could be held responsible. The way officials are getting sued these days, I am not going to take the chance.

Everyone thinks the "tuck-in-the-jersy" rule is to stop showboating, but it was for safety.

Rut- If a plaer dislodges a contact are you going to make that team take a full TO? It is no different than a untied shoe, and unless it repeatedly happens, where is the disadavntage.

I had a game a few years ago whre we had one kid who kept asking to tie his shoes. I told the coach during a TO, that the next time he comes on the floor there had better be tape on the shoe. Problem solved, no disruption to the game, and I'm sure Nike got a refund on thier ad dollars for the one shoe that was covered.

Who handed the thrower the ball after the made free throw? If the official did, why? If another player did or she got the ball herself after the made FT, fine. The ball is live when at the disposal of the thrower, so the count is going to start.

What does this picture look like? she's outside the end line and in position to make the throw-in, looks down and sees her shoe is untied, refuses an offer to take the time out (probably because she doesn't know she needs one or that the coach won't like it), and just lets the ball go so she can tie her shoe while the official is making a visible 5-count? Is this funny or am I missing something? Someone else mentioned the coach. Was he/she asleep too? Does this kind of thing happen at the JV girls level a lot?

It seems clear the trail official could have fixed this situation pretty easily by simply calling time out, getting the ball and letting her tie up the laces. We oughta be able to pick our battles better than to make a mess out of this one.

Re: That is not safety
 

First, let me say that player safety is the primary importance of having rules and officiating. Consider this, B1 has the ball and a team A player gets seriously injured, I hope that you call an injury timeout. This is not about losing a shoe, we're talking about tripping or twisting an ankle, etc.

If you are against the time-out, I don't see why there can't be an inadvertent whistle. The clock would then stop for an official reason, and the player can tie her shoe.

That's not what happened in the original post and completely out of context. It's a different situation and should be handled differently.

For anyone with any common sense AND understanding of the game, you let the girl tie her shoe.

No wonder we catch so much crap!

Safety?
 

What are you guys talking about? What in the world does this have to do with safety? I really think you are way too concerned about litigation. For your information we can get sued for anything, and I am not talking about being an official. It is a safety issue because a kid was too stupid to notice that his shoe was not tied, give me a break. Of course you allow kids to tie shoes that are not, but you do not stop the game because in the middle of a live ball a kid want to tie his or her shoe. I can tell that you could not be doing any real smart coaches, because the higher you go they try to fool you and use anything to get an advantage. If I was a coach in some of your games, I would allow my shoe to be untied so I could get a couple of seconds to see what the offense or defense is doing. Safety is one thing, but this is not a safety issue. If it is, it should have been noticed before the ball was put at the disposal of the player, not after. It is too late at that point.

What's so different?
 

What's wrong with trying to visualize this scene in order to try to make some sense out of it? Can you tie your shoe holding a basketball? If the trail official HAD handled the situation with some common sense AND understanding of the game and let the girl tie her shoe as I suggested we avoid the whole crap with the varsity coach and the melee that followed. (Did you read that part?)

Somehow I get the feeling you didn't understand the what I was trying to communicate. I'm sure the original post sender knows his partner got them in trouble for a situation that should have never happened.

Slap the ball
 

I had a coach (varsity) tell me the 5 second count does not start until the player slaps the ball. Now am I suppose to give them the benefit of the doubt if one of her players thought that was a rule? How far are we going to take this?

Re: That is not safety
 

I thought you said judgement was important? You've recently posted several statements downplaying the importance of rules and promoting the importance of judgement. Now, when you disagree with someone else's judgement, you hide behind a rule!

Re: Re: That is not safety
 

Do you understand officiating? You must not, because where I officiate, if you do some stupid thing like call a timeout on the basis of safety after you give the ball to a player out of bounds, you might get a call from your assignor. There is nothing that I am aware of that this is even a safety issue. Of course if you see a kid does not have his/her shoe tied, and you see it before the ball becomes live, ask them to tie the shoe, I have no problem with that. But I do recall things about jerseys, numbers sizes and lettering are all in the rulebook. But how many of you here took a ruler and measured if the jerseys were legal or not? Did you last year tell kids to remove socks that had 2 manufacturing logos on them? How many of you stopped a game because there was not clear line where the logo was at in the center court? They are in the rulebook, but common sense usually wins out, because if it did not, you are really asking for trouble? Do what you want, but I believe that that would not be acceptable in the areas I officiate. We had a debate on the use of the resume-play procedure a few weeks ago in association meetings, it is in the rulebook, but do you think there was not a debate on the application and when to apply the rule, I think you can answer that yourself.

Re: Re: Re: That is not safety
 

Calling a timeout on the basis of safety is stupid? I guess I'm glad I live/coach/ref where people think that safety is smart, not stupid.

Shoes tied or not (knot)
 

I see two issues here. One of safety and one of not stopping the game to prevent an accident. Shucks, we just started wearing BB shoes last year in Arkansas. Jay must have talented players. Most JV games or JHS games, the kids cannot dribble and chew gum at the same time.

I have seen, not often, a kid step on his own shoe lace and take a spill. I will try to prevent that, if I can. I have shut down a game when a player was obviously hurt even if the other team was driving for the basket, not often. My expainination to the coach was "would you want me to stop the game if that was your player hurt"?

Recently on a rebound two players from the same team came together, result a big cut under one eye. Because I stop the came immediately and got a towel, there were only a few drops of blood to deal with and the coach got a compress on the cut. Game delayed some but so what, I am not paid by the hour. Player safety is always on my mind. If that was my daughter playing a non contact sport like BB, I would hope to have officials on the floor that care about safety. And yes I think an untied shoe lace could be a hazzard.

Sorry thems my views and I'm sticking to'm.

Boy, am I glad of that fact.
 

I am glad too. Because I feel to think that stopping a game in the middle just because an untied shoe is very stupid. I guess you would stop play just because a kid made a move and lost the shoe and reacted by going back and getting the shoe without the ball. What are you going to do, give the ball back to the player's team because he/she wanted to tie their shoe? Be my guest on that one!!!! I do know this, you would have to T me up for that silly decision!!!!


You have every right to your opinion, and I do not want you to feel that you have that right, but in my opinion an untied shoe is NOT a safety issue on its face value. The official should have noticed that before he handed the ball to the player. I think the official did the right thing by asking for a timeout, but the player decided not too, all bets are off at that point. I am not looking for your approval, that is my opinion and I am sticking to that!!

I did this last night. Granted - it wasn't the player with the ball, but a defensive player. As no one was on a fast break, making a lay-up, etc. - I stopped play and let the player put his shoe back on (since he was about to in about 5 seconds).

Is that wrong? I didn't think so. Again, it is a safety issue - it seemed silly so let the game go on and let the player fend for himself. We would stop the game for an injured player (had two of those last night too!), for someone's glasses flying off, etc.

Again, if there is not imminent danger of the player being hurt more, or he is not badly hurt, we wait until their is a good place to stop the game. Otherwise we stop immediately. I don't see how it impacts the game negatively.

In the original situation this all happened after a free throw and then the ball was handed to the player(by who?)
The time to get this shoe tied was before the last free throw, sounds like neither official was checking the players
prior to this. If the it was the official who handed the ball to the girl he should have blown his whistle and let this player tie their shoe I can see no advantage gained either way at this time. Did this official allow for extra time in his count since he was conducting a Q & A with the thrower in? If there was no pressure on the ball and this was a uncontested throw in why not stop and let this player tie their shoe. There might be some circumstances when this would not be possible (contested throw in and the count running out) where you would penalize the defense. In these cases you may just want to see what happens and get the shoe at the next opportunity. I find very disturbing that some here think its ok to talk a player out of violations and fouls but will not take the time to prevent injuries when it has no bearing on the play.

Depends
 

Every situation is different and I cannot really say for sure unless I am in the situation. But we do have a provision in the rules that states that we do not stop the play if a defensive player is injured until his/her team bascially gets the ball back or I believe until a fast break is stopped. It is just in my opinion that a untied shoe is not necessarily a safety issue. I would depends on the shoe and laces to be honest. Some laces might not be long at all, that could play a big part. You can do what you want and you have the right to your opinion, but I really think in the bigger scheme of things, there are bigger fish to fry. But again this is usually rare situation. Laces outside of the pants can be a safety issue, but I am not going to stop live ball play just because they are hanging either. You wait until the next dead ball, then handle it. I find nothing wrong with that, but that is me. I feel sometimes as officials we try to find things to make decisions on, every thing is not so tragic or if not handled is going to cause catasophic consequences. If you are worried about being sued, you are in the wrong business. You can get sued for things that you actually call, that is why NF have insurance and NASO offers insurance too.

If I understand the play correctly, this occurred after a made free throw. Therefore, the official should not be handing the ball to the player, and the clock is not running. The delay of tying a shoe is not going to affect anyone except for the offense since it will allow the defense to adequately set up. You are also correct in the fact that you did have the right to call a 5 second violation because the ball was at there was adequate time for the ball to be at the thrower's disposal. I think common sense would prevail here though, because the offensive team is at a loss because their thrower did not throw the ball in quickly.